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PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die.

Was that not from the HH? - that was what would happen if Horus won. IIRC - that was also told to Alpharius by aliens trying to convince him to turn.

Abby isn't Horus - I'm not sure I've seen anyting that states what would happen if chaos won now.

So two possible outcomes from something, I think it was called the Acuity, that gets its answers from the Warp right?

That's hardly a fact either there are two possible outcomes shown to them but what about the third or fourth ones, look how things are at the moment, like you say, Abaddon isn't Horus.

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die.

Was that not from the HH? - that was what would happen if Horus won. IIRC - that was also told to Alpharius by aliens trying to convince him to turn.

Abby isn't Horus - I'm not sure I've seen anything that states what would happen if chaos won now.

Do you honestly expect self sustainability from Chaos? Especially when at least one of the gods is known to be a self defeatist?

Ok, Tzeentch defeats himself, what about the other three?

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die.

Was that not from the HH? - that was what would happen if Horus won. IIRC - that was also told to Alpharius by aliens trying to convince him to turn.

Abby isn't Horus - I'm not sure I've seen anything that states what would happen if chaos won now.

Do you honestly expect self sustainability from Chaos? Especially when at least one of the gods is known to be a self defeatist?

Ok, Tzeentch defeats himself, what about the other three?

He'd bring the other three down with him given how Tzeentch operates. He always loses, but he makes sure everyone else loses too.

 Kain wrote:
He always loses, but he makes sure everyone else loses too.

And therein lies the lesson

The Universe would implode taking all else with it.

Actually, thinking about it again, Tzeentch is the god of change - in order to effect the continuous change he wants, he needs to be alive. He's self defeating but not suicidal

PredaKhaine wrote:
Actually, thinking about it again, Tzeentch is the god of change - in order to effect the continuous change he wants, he needs to be alive. He's self defeating but not suicidal

He can't bring about his change if he wins, because if he wins that means there's nothing left to change, but if he loses too hard he ceases to exist and thus cannot enact anymore change. Ergo he must maintain the status quo of eternal stalemate which in of itself is not a change so he has to work to alter the status quo which can only lead towards victory or defea-

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Actually, thinking about it again, Tzeentch is the god of change - in order to effect the continuous change he wants, he needs to be alive. He's self defeating but not suicidal

He can't bring about his change if he wins, because if he wins that means there's nothing left to change, but if he loses too hard he ceases to exist and thus cannot enact anymore change. Ergo he must maintain the status quo of eternal stalemate which in of itself is not a change so he has to work to alter the status quo which can only lead towards victory or defea-

Ok, now I've gone cross eyed...

Thats also only if Tzeentch wins. If Abby wins with the CSM's tzeentch still has his pawns

PredaKhaine wrote:


Thats also only if Tzeentch wins. If Abby wins with the CSM's tzeentch still has his pawns

But if Abbie wins, doesn't Tzeentch win by default

 Pilau Rice wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:


Thats also only if Tzeentch wins. If Abby wins with the CSM's tzeentch still has his pawns

But if Abbie wins, doesn't Tzeentch win by default

Abby doesn't bow to any single god. If the csm's win the chaos gods reign supreme - but they are a foursome. They don't agree on things at the best of times...in fact they are renowned for doing exactly the opposite.
Tzeentch could still have endless fun annoying the other three chaos gods. For a (daft) example he could just content himself by moving Nurgles cauldron 3 inches to the left everyday. Annoying and pointless, so it's right up Tzeentch's street

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Actually, thinking about it again, Tzeentch is the god of change - in order to effect the continuous change he wants, he needs to be alive. He's self defeating but not suicidal

He can't bring about his change if he wins, because if he wins that means there's nothing left to change, but if he loses too hard he ceases to exist and thus cannot enact anymore change. Ergo he must maintain the status quo of eternal stalemate which in of itself is not a change so he has to work to alter the status quo which can only lead towards victory or defea-

Ok, now I've gone cross eyed...

Thats also only if Tzeentch wins. If Abby wins with the CSM's tzeentch still has his pawns

Tzeentch then turns Abaddon into a Chaos Spawn the moment he stops suiting his self defeatist goals. Which is likely to be just as he prepares an assault on Terra because Tzeentch has a weird sense hu-OH GODS PLEASE I DIDN'T MEAN GLBARLAAAGRLRSRARRGHH

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Actually, thinking about it again, Tzeentch is the god of change - in order to effect the continuous change he wants, he needs to be alive. He's self defeating but not suicidal

He can't bring about his change if he wins, because if he wins that means there's nothing left to change, but if he loses too hard he ceases to exist and thus cannot enact anymore change. Ergo he must maintain the status quo of eternal stalemate which in of itself is not a change so he has to work to alter the status quo which can only lead towards victory or defea-

Ok, now I've gone cross eyed...

Thats also only if Tzeentch wins. If Abby wins with the CSM's tzeentch still has his pawns

Tzeentch then turns Abaddon into a Chaos Spawn the moment he stops suiting his self defeatist goals. Which is likely to be just as he prepares an assault on Terra because Tzeentch has a weird sense hu-OH GODS PLEASE I DIDN'T MEAN GLBARLAAAGRLRSRARRGHH

The other three would stop it happening. Also more importantly, the GW FAQ stops abby from being spawned too

PredaKhaine wrote:

Abby doesn't bow to any single god. If the csm's win the chaos gods reign supreme - but they are a foursome. They don't agree on things at the best of times...in fact they are renowned for doing exactly the opposite.
Tzeentch could still have endless fun annoying the other three chaos gods. For a (daft) example he could just content himself by moving Nurgles cauldron 3 inches to the left everyday. Annoying and pointless, so it's right up Tzeentch's street

Exactly, a win for Abbie is a win for Tzeentch and the other 3.

Or moving his wooden spoon into the fork drawer

I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

Ignoring the Xenos.

I'm talking about Abbadons Crusades.

There would be plenty to change though, chaos marines and citizens fighting would develop new things, the godless ones would rise to try and gain new things to fight.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

Ignoring the Xenos.

I'm talking about Abbadons Crusades.

There would be plenty to change though, chaos marines and citizens fighting would develop new things, the godless ones would rise to try and gain new things to fight.

And Chaos would obliterate itself in a self destructive orgy as it turns upon itself. Chaos being unable to achieve lasting victory has been a fundamental aspect of it since the days of Malal. Chaos cannot create lasting things, it can only corrupt and destroy as any other entropic force.

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

Ignoring the Xenos.

I'm talking about Abbadons Crusades.

There would be plenty to change though, chaos marines and citizens fighting would develop new things, the godless ones would rise to try and gain new things to fight.

And Chaos would obliterate itself in a self destructive orgy as it turns upon itself. Chaos being unable to achieve lasting victory has been a fundamental aspect of it since the days of Malal. Chaos cannot create lasting things, it can only corrupt and destroy as any other entropic force.

Which is weird considering all the new stuff they've created and invented. Sure the victory wouldn't last, but it doesn't suddenly mean that all of them will converged upon each other and kill every single person in an instant. It's like how it fights the Imperium, warbands will fight other warbands, some will join up, some will betray, some will X. It's not all going to obliterate itself.

Not every bit of chaos is an endless whirlwind of orgy and destruction, hard as it is to believe, but there are functioning worlds within chaos grasp, that live, die, and do everything as they would do on an imperium world, except for maybe the daily sacrifices.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

Ignoring the Xenos.

I'm talking about Abbadons Crusades.

There would be plenty to change though, chaos marines and citizens fighting would develop new things, the godless ones would rise to try and gain new things to fight.

And Chaos would obliterate itself in a self destructive orgy as it turns upon itself. Chaos being unable to achieve lasting victory has been a fundamental aspect of it since the days of Malal. Chaos cannot create lasting things, it can only corrupt and destroy as any other entropic force.

Which is weird considering all the new stuff they've created and invented. Sure the victory wouldn't last, but it doesn't suddenly mean that all of them will converged upon each other and kill every single person in an instant. It's like how it fights the Imperium, warbands will fight other warbands, some will join up, some will betray, some will X. It's not all going to obliterate itself.

Not every bit of chaos is an endless whirlwind of orgy and destruction, hard as it is to believe, but there are functioning worlds within chaos grasp, that live, die, and do everything as they would do on an imperium world, except for maybe the daily sacrifices.

Given that the Cabal believed that the best way to destroy chaos would be for it to win and annihilate itself in it's orgy of self destructive violence in less than a century, allowing the galaxy to be sown with new life following the death of humanity. Given that they were spot on with their prediction that a technical imperial victory would mean a long, slow death for everyone else, I'd be willing to think that their prediction in this case would be correct.

That was for chaos led by Horus - the cabal believed his shame would drive him to destroy everything and thus stop chaos winning. That prophecy was Horus specific.

Abaddon isn't Horus.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I don't understand why the Imperium dying would snuff out Tzeentch.

Chaos would still be around, humanity would still be around. It's just mostly on chaos based worlds rather then the Imperium, and then the galaxy would be filled with chaos between the chaos factions fighting each other.

Tzeentch loses if he wins because if he wins there's nothing more to change. Ergo he works to defeat himself at the cusp of each victory. And if Xenos shatter the Imperium, humanity would be vastly reduced in size and scope. Or if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, humanity is extinct period.

Ignoring the Xenos.

I'm talking about Abbadons Crusades.

There would be plenty to change though, chaos marines and citizens fighting would develop new things, the godless ones would rise to try and gain new things to fight.

And Chaos would obliterate itself in a self destructive orgy as it turns upon itself. Chaos being unable to achieve lasting victory has been a fundamental aspect of it since the days of Malal. Chaos cannot create lasting things, it can only corrupt and destroy as any other entropic force.

Which is weird considering all the new stuff they've created and invented. Sure the victory wouldn't last, but it doesn't suddenly mean that all of them will converged upon each other and kill every single person in an instant. It's like how it fights the Imperium, warbands will fight other warbands, some will join up, some will betray, some will X. It's not all going to obliterate itself.

Not every bit of chaos is an endless whirlwind of orgy and destruction, hard as it is to believe, but there are functioning worlds within chaos grasp, that live, die, and do everything as they would do on an imperium world, except for maybe the daily sacrifices.

yes please

PredaKhaine wrote:
That was for chaos led by Horus - the cabal believed his shame would drive him to destroy everything and thus stop chaos winning. That prophecy was Horus specific.

Abaddon isn't Horus.

He's someone who mocks Horus despite not being half the marine he was.

Chaos had 10 000 years to prove that it can self-sustain and still remain potent. Another question is: will chaos turn on itself (even more than usual) and would completely obliterate himself? Well, in an age of strife humans had tried to do just that with a help of xenos and demons, but ultimately it endured...

Ernestas wrote:
Chaos had 10 000 years to prove that it can self-sustain and become less of a threat than the orks. Another question is: will chaos turn on itself (even more than usual) and would completely obliterate himself? Well, in an age of strife humans had tried to do just that with a help of xenos and demons, but ultimately it endured...

Fixed for you.

Also this time around, the Necrons are back, the Tyranids are coming, and countless new minor xenos are popping up like the Slaugth, Tau, Rak'Gol, Thyrrus and so on.

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
That was for chaos led by Horus - the cabal believed his shame would drive him to destroy everything and thus stop chaos winning. That prophecy was Horus specific.

Abaddon isn't Horus.

He's someone who mocks Horus despite not being half the marine he was.

Because Horus was a Primarch, not a Marine

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
That was for chaos led by Horus - the cabal believed his shame would drive him to destroy everything and thus stop chaos winning. That prophecy was Horus specific.

Abaddon isn't Horus.

He's someone who mocks Horus despite not being half the marine he was.

Because Horus was a Primarch, not a Marine

Maybe we should have a Horus vs Abaddon thread.

Although I have the suspicion that Horus would stomp Abaddon into fine paste.

Abby wins by virtue of not being dead

I don't think it's necessary as this thread is about Abaddon and both are comparable characters.

In a straight up fight, when are we talking? Both at the height of their power?

PredaKhaine wrote:
Abby wins by virtue of not being dead

I was going to go with this, but decided to see first

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't think it's necessary as this thread is about Abaddon and both are comparable characters.

In a straight up fight, when are we talking? Both at the height of their power?

Yes, the Horus who fought the Emperor vs Abaddon as he is now.

I thought it's obvious that Imperium tries to save its core by sacrificing its borders which in turn a shewed by all kinds of foul xenos. Then you are faced by most concentrated defense in an entire galaxy you simply cannot achieve much. Abbadon was damn cunning to try achieve downfall of Imperium just in his 13'th crusade, but due to unexpected actions of xenos, I might think that ultimately he had failed. If Imperium manages to win again, then this time Abbadon will loose heavily. Not in ultimate outcomes, but in overall material and manpower compared to all previous black crusades. I have a feeling that it is his first time then he had over-extended himself seriously and spended all his favors and reserves to combat Imperium and if it all fails, he will finally fail in his major goals. Even more, if any significant reinforcements arrives for an Imperium, he will be crushed in very same way as other foes are defeated with counter attacks.

Overall, I have doubts that any race would fare any better in chaos place. Imperium actively sacrifices its worlds and spends all its forces on Abbadon. I think it's damn impressive achievement. Others look good just for this reason. Imperium always have been overstretched and its borders were an easy prey. Now, even more, then most of their forces are falling back to Cadia and its sectors.

Horus would obviously kick the crap out of Abaddon.