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Iracundus wrote:

 Snogs wrote:

Asymmetric warfare, my friend.
Its his only hope.
Its the only way to defeat a foe that has more "stuff" then you.
I think he did it once before, in one of GW world events. Or maybe it was in some fluff I read somewhere cant recall.
So I may be wrong on him trying to attack throw many warp gates at once.
But the point of it is to hit the enemy everywhere and from nowhere. And hit him where he is week. Bleed him out in the long run. And in Abbys case he has forever.
And the IOM just cant be everywhere, It just seems like he shot his whole wad at Cadia. And came up sort.

He failed to destroy the monoliths on Cadia,
He failed to land in enough force to maintain his planet side forces.
He failed to gain air or even more important space supremacy . <---those two things right there trump every thing he has planet side.
At least that is my understanding of how things are right now in the 40k timeline.
But if he had done both at the same time, combined with all the other stuff being thrown at the IOM I think he would have a better shot. That's all im saying.
But GW let his forces get pushed back, so I guess its their fault.

Abby seems like a failure because he is not allowed to get past the one spot he has to.
I dont see how it would hurt the game any by doing so other then maybe stealing forge worlds thunder a bit. As they are doing the HH.

And as a side note, I would have loved it for GW to have said that the IOM lost the battle of Cadia.
But yet the war still gos on, maybe wake up that guy sleeping in the Rock. Maybe let Russ can find his way home. There would be a lot they could do. They just dont seem to want to.

Please read the Eye of Terror campaign results because much of what you said above is flat out incorrect:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

The Imperium did lose the Eye of Terror Campaign. Abaddon was last seen in the Thesus sector and is thus past Cadia. Space control is not the be all and end all of warfare in 40K. And in any case, Chaos has local orbital superiority over Cadia.

Much of what you said seems to have been highly distorted or given by Imperial players in denial over the results.

I did try to read the EoT Campaign tread..but it was to full of crap. And if chaos somehow got cheated...well that is something GW has to fix.
And if Abby is past Cadia...then good for him. Glad to see he has moved on.
But GW would seem to disagree with you on who has space supremacy over Cadia. And so would all those Imperial troops still on Cadia that have not been nuked from Orbit.
And you did see where I said I dont care who wins, I dont have a dog in that fight. I just want them to move the time line along a little bit. I dont care if its Chaos,Orks,Nids, or the IOM
So Go Team 40k!!

Melissia wrote:

 Snogs wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Feth that, let sleeping primarchs lie. There's far more interesting stories to tell than that.

I am good with that to, I just want GW to go on and get around to telling them.

The 40k universe is enough that one can easily go through it telling a billion different stories and not even get close to tapping its full creative potential. And that's just imperial stories, not counting the alien races or non-imperial humans.

I agree with you a 100%. There are loads of stories that could/should be told from the 40k universe.

 Snogs wrote:

I did try to read the EoT Campaign tread..but it was to full of crap. And if chaos somehow got cheated...well that is something GW has to fix.
And if Abby is past Cadia...then good for him. Glad to see he has moved on.
But GW would seem to disagree with you on who has space supremacy over Cadia. And so would all those Imperial troops still on Cadia that have not been nuked from Orbit.
And you did see where I said I dont care who wins, I dont have a dog in that fight. I just want them to move the time line along a little bit. I dont care if its Chaos,Orks,Nids, or the IOM
So Go Team 40k!!

The problem is whenever it comes to the EoT campaign, all the Imperial players that cannot stomach actually losing come out of the woodwork to try to argue why they didn't "really" lose or to accuse GW of conspiracy or accuse Chaos players of cheating. In the process all sorts of half-truths and outright false information gets spread in an attempt to argue loss into draw (when that word has never been used by GW regarding the campaign) or worse, into victory despite GW's official verdict 10 years ago. The problem this creates is that newer players get told all sorts of things that are just not true and then these get repeated.

Incorrect on the orbital superiority.

From the final campaign newsletter from GW:

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

Explicitly says Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell at the beginning.

Chaos might've won against the Imperium in the EoT campaign but they were thoroughly beaten by the Eldar. I'm guessing that put a hamper on their final result too. Stupid defenders of the status quo!

The Eldar accomplished their objectives, not the Imperium's. This is in perfect keeping with the known behavior of Eldar.

They took vast swathes of the crone world Belial IV and pockets of another, Eidolon, both deep in the Eye of Terror. They thwarted Ahriman's attempt to reach the Black Library.

It would have been nice for GW to actually develop these victories so the Eldar don't get seen as the limp ineffectual punching bag they seem to have been made out to be recently (count the number of Avatars defeated recently? For awhile it was virtually one per Codex release). The Eldar may be a faded remnant of what they once were but such victories should be the things that give the Imperium and other factions pause. The last death throes of a waning power or the faint glimmering of a rebirth? Just as I don't believe any faction should be entirely guaranteed of victory, neither should they be guaranteed defeat.

Instead...GW killed off Eldrad. If anything, Creed should have been the one killed off considering how he lost the majority of Cadia.

[

Incorrect on the orbital superiority.

From the final campaign newsletter from GW:

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

Explicitly says Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell at the beginning.

Iracundus wrote:
The Eldar accomplished their objectives, not the Imperium's. This is in perfect keeping with the known behavior of Eldar.

They took vast swathes of the crone world Belial IV and pockets of another, Eidolon, both deep in the Eye of Terror. They thwarted Ahriman's attempt to reach the Black Library.

It would have been nice for GW to actually develop these victories so the Eldar don't get seen as the limp ineffectual punching bag they seem to have been made out to be recently (count the number of Avatars defeated recently? For awhile it was virtually one per Codex release). The Eldar may be a faded remnant of what they once were but such victories should be the things that give the Imperium and other factions pause. The last death throes of a waning power or the faint glimmering of a rebirth? Just as I don't believe any faction should be entirely guaranteed of victory, neither should they be guaranteed defeat.

Instead...GW killed off Eldrad. If anything, Creed should have been the one killed off considering how he lost the majority of Cadia.

Fear not Iracundus, for Eldrad shall return, wielding all the powers of the Blackstone itself!

In all seriousness, I don't mind Eldrad's death, his epic sacrifice makes him all the more awesome.

 Snogs wrote:


Yet the final outcome of the Battle of Cadia, no matter how it had been arrived at, was clear. The Forces of Chaos had seized a large portion of the surface of Cadia, but the Imperial and Eldar victory in orbit forced the Chaos warfleet to retreat back towards the Eye of Terror, giving the Imperium naval superiority in the Cadia System and the broader Cadian Gate. It provided the servants of the Emperor with the ability to keep the Forces of Chaos contained on the surface of Cadia, where ground operations slowly ground to a stalemate, with neither side able to make headway against the other. While the Imperium possessed air superiority, the Forces of Chaos' sheer numbers prevented them from being dislodged from their occupied territory.<----Same newsletter

The entire newsletter is at:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_f.html

Nowhere in that newsletter does the word "stalemate" appear. Nor is there anything about naval superiority in the Cadia system nor the Chaos fleet retreating back into the Eye of Terror. You are making all of that up. Chaos has local superiority above Cadia while the Imperial Navy has the advantage in deeper space and elsewhere in the sector.

In fact, the newsletter directly refutes the claim of Chaos being retreating back into the Eye :

At the close of the Thirteenth Black Crusade, Cadia still stands. But she stands alone, a failing beacon flickering against the encroaching night. Total war is come to Segmentum Obscurus, and all hopes of repelling the invaders are dashed. The Imperium must now consolidate its grip upon those worlds it still holds, and prepare to fight a war that will not end within the lifetime of any of its combatants.

Cadian (sector) 85% 100% Faithful
Cadian (system) 92% 29.4% Unreliable
Cadia (planet) 95% 39.8% Unreliable

Those were the final results pertaining to the Cadian sector level space control and the Cadian system itself (as per the WD article "Death by a Thousand Cuts" by Andy Chambers, WD 287). The two percentages are intiial and final results in terms of Imperial Control. As seen, the Cadian system's local space is dominated by Chaos. Cadia the planet itself started at 95% and at the end stood at 39.8%. In other words, Creed lost over half the planet.

Abaddon is beyond the Gate as well as evidenced by:

Thesus Reach is an industral planet unaware of its own impending destruction. It sits in the path of Abaddon the Despoiler's Thirteenth Black Crusade, the greatest and most successful Chaos incursion the galaxy has ever known. ..Abaddon's flagship, the Planet Killer, is primed to teleport its master onto the planet...

p.80, Apocalypse rulebook

I also don't know why you are referring to "you" as if I have any personal interest in Chaos winning. I don't play Chaos at all. But what I don't like is the outright fabrication of information when there are actual GW sources available. Over and over again people have been stating things that are not actually true, and virtually every time it appears to be some variant of Imperial wishful thinking. Chaos hasn't retreated to the Eye. Abaddon went beyond the Gate. The Imperium doesn't have direct orbital superiority over Cadia though it has the advantage elsewhere in space.

The Imperium lost the Eye of Terror campaign. It was declared in black and white in print. Just as the Imperium officially won the Ichvar IV worldwide campaign, had a stalemate but leaning in the Imperium's favor in the Armageddon 3 campaign, won the Medusa V campaign, the Imperium lost the Eye of Terror campaign. There is none of this level of misinformation, half truths, or outright falsehoods for any of those other campaigns, only the one where the Imperium lost. It is sportsmanship to be able to accept losses as well as wins.

LOL your so easy m8.
Ill leave you be

 Kain wrote:

 RoadToRuin wrote:
I was reading some of the recent history of 40k, specifically the 13th black crusade and I was reading that the general for chaos, one abbadon the the despoiler, was considered by some to be incompetent. Is this true or just some page vandalism.

He's billed as the big bad of the setting and yet the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons have all done more damage to the Imperium in a shorter space of time than he has.

So 3 galaxy spanning single-minded alien races have done more than one 10,000+ year old man.

Your logic and reasoning skills are as impressive as ever.

One 10,100+ year old heavily mutated space marine who commands armies of daemons, cultists, and other spiky space marines which are likened to unending tides of chaos.

Don't underestimate him.

What I don't understand is why abaddon can only come through the eye of terror. Imperial travel consists of the sips going into the warp and then coming out at or near their destination. Why can't chaos vessels just come out where they like? After all they are just evil imperials with the same technology only they are guided by masters of the warp and not some lighthouse

The Eye of Terror is the calm center of a massive warp storm, the most massive in the galaxy in fact.

This prevents all but the most lucky from leaving the Eye in most circumstances, although ther eare occasional gaps from which heretics slip in or out.

You all have to appreciate the fact that, according to everybody's codex, they are the biggest threat in the Galaxy, and they're going to win. Except the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard Codex basically states that: 'We have lots of guys, but they suck and are all going to die in a horrible manner'. And, to be honest guys, I think the siege of Terra is going to be IMPOSSIBLE, especially considering all the Titanicus, Grey Knights and orbital defense gak they got going on down there, it's gonna be one Hell of a battle, but I think that, eventually, Terra will hold as one of the last bastions of the Imperium (bar places like Mars, Macragge etc, though I do hope the Ultramarines die and go to Hell, where they are destined to be ended by the Devil himself), my God, I love to ramble! ^_^

Abaddon is Abaddon not the best general in the NL book he is said to be impatient.

 Gabrial Seth wrote:
Abaddon is Abaddon not the best general in the NL book he is said to be impatient.

I like something AD-B said about Soul-Hunter's portrayal of Abaddon, seemingly as a form of almost suggesting taking the portrayal with salt:

"Soul Hunter's not a grrrreat showing for Abaddon, because Talos is seeing the moment through distorted lenses. What Talos sees isn't necessarily the man Abaddon really is - he makes a lot of assumptions based on his own understanding of the Legions after the Heresy. I tried to show a little bit of that afterwards, when it turns out that despite the moment's importance for Talos, for Abaddon, he couldn't really have cared less. For Talos, it was a major moment in his life. For Abaddon, it was just Tuesday."