Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was reading some of the recent history of 40k, specifically the 13th black crusade and I was reading that the general for chaos, one abbadon the the despoiler, was considered by some to be incompetent. Is this true or just some page vandalism.

Considered by players to be incompetant. Because he's not just steam rolling into the imperium and hasn't reached terra yet.
His crusades have taken a target each time or made an objective, but its not Terra each time. Confusing people into thinking he's incompetant.
Despite the loonacy of blundering out into a numerically superior foe through the most infamous fortress world in the Imperium to assault the most heavily defended system in the Imperium.

Fluff wise he is respected and feared, but some don't always understand his plan or objectives and in cases assume he's not made them. But he is still respected and feared, not considered incompetant.

You see, people are stupid, and think that the Imperium is easy to take over, when it clearly isn't.

 RoadToRuin wrote:
I was reading some of the recent history of 40k, specifically the 13th black crusade and I was reading that the general for chaos, one abbadon the the despoiler, was considered by some to be incompetent. Is this true or just some page vandalism.

He's billed as the big bad of the setting and yet the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons have all done more damage to the Imperium in a shorter space of time than he has.

The way I see it, Abbadon is not all about doing damage and destroying worlds.

He has a bigger plan, and when it comes to fruition, the Imperium will fall to its knees, ripe for conquest when the time is right.

 Kain wrote:

 RoadToRuin wrote:
I was reading some of the recent history of 40k, specifically the 13th black crusade and I was reading that the general for chaos, one abbadon the the despoiler, was considered by some to be incompetent. Is this true or just some page vandalism.

He's billed as the big bad of the setting and yet the Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons have all done more damage to the Imperium in a shorter space of time than he has.

Thats cause they are just out to nom/smash/exterminate respectively.

Abaddon actually wants to punish the imperium. Besides If he actually managed it, what would he do next?

Nids - move to a new galaxy when they're done.
Necrons - Carry on trying to put the universe back to how they left it.
Orks - Find something else to fight.

Chaos? If they win, it's widely accepted it'd be the end of chaos
Abby would have to get a new job. Or retire to a small forest moon or something.

Or finally ascend to Daemonhood maybe?

He could do that in his forest moon retreat

PredaKhaine wrote:
He could do that in his forest moon retreat

Abbies to do list

1. Crush the Imperium
2. Kill the Emperor
3. Ascend to Daemonhood
4. Retire to Forest Moon Retreat
5. Keep Kharn off of grass and flowerbeds

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Abbies to do list

1. Crush the Imperium
2. Kill the Emperor
3. Ascend to Daemonhood
4. Retire to Forest Moon Retreat
5. Kill off remaining Ewoks
6. Keep Kharn off of grass and flowerbeds

Fixed.

It isn't in the gods' interests to crush the Imperium, not yet at least.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
It isn't in the gods' interests to crush the Imperium, not yet at least.

Who said anything about Gods, they might not want it and might not let Abbie do his thing, but it's certainly abbies intention.

That, Ewok smiting and thinking about the best place to plant his Tulips.

rohansoldier wrote:
The way I see it, Abbadon is not all about doing damage and destroying worlds.

He has a bigger plan, and when it comes to fruition, the Imperium will fall to its knees, ripe for conquest when the time is right.

Except by then the Imperium would have been eaten by Dinosaur locusts or turned into Imotekh's new crib.

 Kain wrote:

rohansoldier wrote:
The way I see it, Abbadon is not all about doing damage and destroying worlds.

He has a bigger plan, and when it comes to fruition, the Imperium will fall to its knees, ripe for conquest when the time is right.

Except by then the Imperium would have been eaten by Dinosaur locusts or turned into Imotekh's new crib.

Maybe not - if the imperium is lucky the dinosaur locusts will try to eat imotekhs new crib first
I see the imperium as still standing because of the status quo between factions. They all stop each other from getting powerful enough to destroy the imperium

Most of the crusades have succeeded.

Most of them were goals to head out and do X really, even if its just a minor bit of damage, Abbadon has led out of the a number of legions, kept them together, and given gifts to the chaos gods in far greater numbers.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

rohansoldier wrote:
The way I see it, Abbadon is not all about doing damage and destroying worlds.

He has a bigger plan, and when it comes to fruition, the Imperium will fall to its knees, ripe for conquest when the time is right.

Except by then the Imperium would have been eaten by Dinosaur locusts or turned into Imotekh's new crib.

Maybe not - if the imperium is lucky the dinosaur locusts will try to eat imotekhs new crib first
I see the imperium as still standing because of the status quo between factions. They all stop each other from getting powerful enough to destroy the imperium

And all of them are bigger and do more damage than Abaddon's little crusades.

I'd rate Gazghkull as a bigger threat than Abaddon honestly.

My point was more that no one can win at the moment.

For example, the orks and nids are having their own war somewhere abouts and no one else is getting involved.

This in turn is keeping that fringe of the imperium secure - until there is a winner, they don't have to worry about it and can focus on more immediate threats - if either armies win, they could probably take the imperium down as it'll mean either many new tyranids made from Ork dna or absolutely huge super orks!

Because there are so many threats to the imperium, they keep each other in check.

PredaKhaine wrote:
My point was more that no one can win at the moment.

For example, the orks and nids are having their own war somewhere abouts and no one else is getting involved.

This in turn is keeping that fringe of the imperium secure - until there is a winner, they don't have to worry about it and can focus on more immediate threats - if either armies win, they could probably take the imperium down as it'll mean either many new tyranids made from Ork dna or absolutely huge super orks!

Because there are so many threats to the imperium, they keep each other in check.

The Imperium's front line is collapsing. New minor empires are popping up everywhere eating up the Imperium's territory, the Tyranids have already surged past the defensive line, Abaddon's past the Cadian gate (although his fleet's gak got wrecked), the Orks are running loose in Segmentum Solar, the Necrons are awakening from behind the Imperium's lines, the Eldar are getting bolder, the Dark Eldar are more or less able to do as they please, and the Tau's expansion is going beyond expectations.

The current era is called the time of ending for a reason. The Imperium's extinction is garaunteed. But it's rather like Nazi Germany circa 1943, the writing is on the wall, but there's still a lot to be done before gotterdammerung comes about.

But I'd say that the Imperium will collapse in about two millenia and the master of the Administratum will be giving his own version of a Htiler rant at gathered officers when he finds out that he's ordering divisions to the defense of the Imperial palace against the Xeno threat which no longer exist.

My best guess for the soviet stand in? Tyranids, Necrons, or Gazghkull with the mother of all WAAAGH!!!s.

The Imperium doesn't seem to get as riled up about Thraka or the Tyrnaids though.

The Black Crusades always seem to be a big deal.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Imperium doesn't seem to get as riled up about Thraka or the Tyrnaids though.

The Black Crusades always seem to be a big deal.

The Imperium believes that to have even a minimal chance of survival against the full force of the Tyranid species they will need to recruit everyone and their dog (dogs make for good suicide bombers!) into the military or in direct support of the military. Even Abaddon doesn't get that.

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
My point was more that no one can win at the moment.

For example, the orks and nids are having their own war somewhere abouts and no one else is getting involved.

This in turn is keeping that fringe of the imperium secure - until there is a winner, they don't have to worry about it and can focus on more immediate threats - if either armies win, they could probably take the imperium down as it'll mean either many new tyranids made from Ork dna or absolutely huge super orks!

Because there are so many threats to the imperium, they keep each other in check.

The Imperium's front line is collapsing. New minor empires are popping up everywhere eating up the Imperium's territory, the Tyranids have already surged past the defensive line, Abaddon's past the Cadian gate (although his fleet's gak got wrecked), the Orks are running loose in Segmentum Solar, the Necrons are awakening from behind the Imperium's lines, the Eldar are getting bolder, the Dark Eldar are more or less able to do as they please, and the Tau's expansion is going beyond expectations.

The current era is called the time of ending for a reason. The Imperium's extinction is garaunteed. But it's rather like Nazi Germany circa 1943, the writing is on the wall, but there's still a lot to be done before gotterdammerung comes about.

But I'd say that the Imperium will collapse in about two millenia and the master of the Administratum will be giving his own version of a Htiler rant at gathered officers when he finds out that he's ordering divisions to the defense of the Imperial palace against the Xeno threat which no longer exist.

My best guess for the soviet stand in? Tyranids, Necrons, or Gazghkull with the mother of all WAAAGH!!!s.

Thats why I said 'at the moment'

1 question - where is 'the eldar are getting bolder' from?

They also believe that the forces of Chaos are the greatest threat, depends where you get your fluff from .

The 13th Black Crusade has got many more Chapters and other military organisations mustered than any Tendril of a Hive Fleet to my knowledge.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
My point was more that no one can win at the moment.

For example, the orks and nids are having their own war somewhere abouts and no one else is getting involved.

This in turn is keeping that fringe of the imperium secure - until there is a winner, they don't have to worry about it and can focus on more immediate threats - if either armies win, they could probably take the imperium down as it'll mean either many new tyranids made from Ork dna or absolutely huge super orks!

Because there are so many threats to the imperium, they keep each other in check.

The Imperium's front line is collapsing. New minor empires are popping up everywhere eating up the Imperium's territory, the Tyranids have already surged past the defensive line, Abaddon's past the Cadian gate (although his fleet's gak got wrecked), the Orks are running loose in Segmentum Solar, the Necrons are awakening from behind the Imperium's lines, the Eldar are getting bolder, the Dark Eldar are more or less able to do as they please, and the Tau's expansion is going beyond expectations.

The current era is called the time of ending for a reason. The Imperium's extinction is garaunteed. But it's rather like Nazi Germany circa 1943, the writing is on the wall, but there's still a lot to be done before gotterdammerung comes about.

But I'd say that the Imperium will collapse in about two millenia and the master of the Administratum will be giving his own version of a Htiler rant at gathered officers when he finds out that he's ordering divisions to the defense of the Imperial palace against the Xeno threat which no longer exist.

My best guess for the soviet stand in? Tyranids, Necrons, or Gazghkull with the mother of all WAAAGH!!!s.

Thats why I said 'at the moment'

1 question - where is 'the eldar are getting bolder' from?

They've been much more active recently, likely in reaction to the current cascade of events that seems to be building up to the final dammerung of the imperium.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
They also believe that the forces of Chaos are the greatest threat, depends where you get your fluff from .

The 13th Black Crusade has got many more Chapters and other military organisations mustered than any Tendril of a Hive Fleet to my knowledge.

And Hive Fleet Leviathan consists of dozens if not hundreds of tendrils, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. And Gazghkull drew in nearly as many as Abaddon with his Waaagh and he's preparing to bring in an even bigger one down. And who knows what the Necrons are up to.

Chaos is a primarily ideaological threat that cannot win because it's victory would mean it's own demise. The Xeno is the real threat, the one that can actually bring about the extinction of humanity and the final death of all hope.

In the Universe of 40k, Everyone is the biggest threat.

Except the Eldar.

 Kain wrote:
They've been much more active recently, likely in reaction to the current cascade of events that seems to be building up to the final dammerung of the imperium.

Have you got any citations? I've not read that anywhere and I'd like to catch up

Also - The final battle is against chaos is it not?

Thats the one when all the phoenix lords get together for the rhana dhandra and the primarchs come back eg Russ comes back 'for the wolftime'.
Chaos is fated to be the imperiums last big battle. The 'nids/Orks/Necrons can have whatever is left.

 Kain wrote:

And Hive Fleet Leviathan consists of dozens if not hundreds of tendrils, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. And Gazghkull drew in nearly as many as Abaddon with his Waaagh and he's preparing to bring in an even bigger one down. And who knows what the Necrons are up to.

Number of tendrils does not necessarily translate to number of Chapters involved, but point noted. It could be hundreds, but that sounds exaggerated from what information we have. Armageddon was a more containable event, a highly rated one due to the nature of Armageddon, but still containable. The last I heard of Thraka he had ran away, with the Black Templars and Yarrick hot on his heels?

 Kain wrote:
Chaos is a primarily ideaological threat that cannot win because it's victory would mean it's own demise. The Xeno is the real threat, the one that can actually bring about the extinction of humanity and the final death of all hope.

Chaos might not bring about the demise of humanity but it can enslave it totally, that would be it's victory.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And Hive Fleet Leviathan consists of dozens if not hundreds of tendrils, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. And Gazghkull drew in nearly as many as Abaddon with his Waaagh and he's preparing to bring in an even bigger one down. And who knows what the Necrons are up to.

Number of tendrils does not necessarily translate to number of Chapters involved, but point noted. It could be hundreds, but that sounds exaggerated from what information with have. Armageddon was a more containable event, a highly rated one due to the nature of Armageddon, but still containable. The last I heard of Thraka he had ran away, with the Black Templars and Yarrick hot on his heels?

 Kain wrote:
Chaos is a primarily ideaological threat that cannot win because it's victory would mean it's own demise. The Xeno is the real threat, the one that can actually bring about the extinction of humanity and the final death of all hope.

Chaos might not bring about the demise of humanity but it can enslave it totally, that would be it's victory.

And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die. Whereas an Ork victory would mean everything is green for the rest of forever, a Necron victory would be the re-establishment of Necrontyr hegemony, and a Tyranid victory would mean a galaxy that is now and forevermore dead, a once vibrant and rich cosmos now utterly silent with billions of dead worlds lying in mute testimony, never to speak again, never to regrow as a hungry fleet heads off for it's next victim.

 Kain wrote:

And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die. Whereas an Ork victory would mean everything is green for the rest of forever, a Necron victory would be the re-establishment of Necrontyr hegemony, and a Tyranid victory would mean a galaxy that is now and forevermore dead, a once vibrant and rich cosmos now utterly silent with billions of dead worlds lying in mute testimony, never to speak again, never to regrow as a hungry fleet heads off for it's next victim.

Fact you say? Please provide me this fact.

 Kain wrote:
And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die.

Was that not from the HH? - that was what would happen if Horus won. IIRC - that was also told to Alpharius by aliens trying to convince him to turn.

Abby isn't Horus - I'm not sure I've seen anything that states what would happen if chaos won now.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And it's a fact that if it won, it would burn itself out in a few decades and die.

Was that not from the HH? - that was what would happen if Horus won. IIRC - that was also told to Alpharius by aliens trying to convince him to turn.

Abby isn't Horus - I'm not sure I've seen anything that states what would happen if chaos won now.

Do you honestly expect self sustainability from Chaos? Especially when at least one of the gods is known to be a self defeatist?