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 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't think it's necessary as this thread is about Abaddon and both are comparable characters.

In a straight up fight, when are we talking? Both at the height of their power?

Yes, the Horus who fought the Emperor vs Abaddon as he is now.

I think that would create a time paradox as both have the Talon of Horus

As I recall, the use of psychic powers in some way feeds chaos... So perhaps the demon lords are pulling Abaddon's strings giving him just enough to remain a thorn in the side of the Imperium but not enough to collapse it. Kind of like keeping the battery charged but being careful not to overcharge it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't think it's necessary as this thread is about Abaddon and both are comparable characters.

In a straight up fight, when are we talking? Both at the height of their power?

Yes, the Horus who fought the Emperor vs Abaddon as he is now.

I think that would create a time paradox as both have the Talon of Horus

Well an Ork once killed his past self to have two of his favorite gun.

Wait a minute.
How would known Black Crusades lay on a scale of their danger?
Maybe Chaos was at ots peak in Horus Heresy, then was redusced into marginal power during the Scourging, and then, under leadership of certain Matine with a topknot, has grown into a force that Imperium struggles to prevail against in open all-out war once again?

I think we got a little off topic. Short summary Abbadon is not a bad leader. GW just don't want to progress any story line.

Abaddon's Black Crusades are halted because the Imperium throws more resources at them, compared to Ghaz or the Tyranids.

I had a lot of these questions then I started reading some of the more modern 40k fiction since I started with the Horus Heresy when I started the hobby.

I enjoyed the first GK novel by Ben Counter despite a horrible start, but it certainly gave a good sense of just how focused on the EoT the Imperium are, it talks of a galaxy wide threat only being spared a not quite captain/if potentially great and a couple of squads because everything else is at the EoT, Of needing imperial resources and navy but everything is on its way to the EoT.

Basically the imperium is fethed because of the EoT. Everything it has that isn't already there is on its way, they are stripping the empire bare.

Abaddon is fighting an imperium that contains a million plus worlds, draining the resources of an empire that size, hell if you could do it in twenty crusades then you would have secured a crushing victory.

10k Years to get the job done and...he only got to the front door of the Imperium.

Its a EPIC fail!!

The Nids have done more damage to the IOM and to the galaxy at large then old Abaddon ever has.
Or ever will.

The Tyranids didn't have a single opening in time and space to pour their armies through that could be defended.

You should probably get more familiar with the fluff before you make statements like that.

The problem Abbaddon faces is first of all it would be an economic catastrophe it would be for GW to let him win. The Cadians sells quite well in this so it would be a baffling stupid mistake of GW to let Cadia fall.

Second Abbaddon just ain't that great a general. He is just a cheap copy of Horus. He is all asskicking equals authority, which means no-one would question his bad decisions as he is known for his hair-trigger temper.

10k Years to get the job done and...he only got to the front door of the Imperium.

Not quite ... Yes, it's been 10,000 years, but a LOT had to happen before Abby could mount even ONE black crusade. First there's the disorderly retreat after Horus is killed - then everyone gets to the eye (or wherever their respective hide outs are) and fortifies their positions. Then there's who knows how many years of internecine war fare as the traitor legions fight each other for supplies/power and all while trying to figure out what this new "Chaos things" is really all about. Oh, yeah, and then there's Demons - they had to figure out how to keep from getting eaten/possessed/killed etc. by Demons. Next there's the whole question of how do you navigate through the warp when you're actually living IN THE WARP. It's not like there's a map for that. lol That's only scratching the surface of what they had to deal with. It's a miracle Abby got Chaos's Gak together for ANY Crusades. Let alone 13.

As to the whole Kabal prophecy of Chaos winning and then burning itself out - as others have said that was strictly Horus. For that to come to fruition Horus had to win and then kill everyone and everything. That's not at all the same thing as Abbadon winning. With Abby I think it's a lot scarier. I can see him eventually winning, and then getting turned into a spawn so that he can't interfere while the 4 gods go about making the human race into slaves, worshippers, etc.

I can see the "Failbadon" thing having happened entirely by accident. TO my knowledge, the 13th crusade was the only one that was dealt with as an actual global campaign for players. The others were all just fluff. I can see a situation where writers come and go and people lose track of things and then one day someone realizes "Hey! You know we're kind of making our head bad guy look like a tool here! We should fix that ASAP!"lol So anyway, no, I don't think he's incompetent, but he's got one hell of a hard job. He's got to cobble together and then HOLD TOGETHER an army that would happily rip itself to pieces the second he turns his back AND use it to fight a massive war machine that is completely unified in purpose and has an inexhaustible amount of man power. Plus, he's forced to do this through the most heavily fortified system that war machine possesses. So for crying out loud, cut the guy a break!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Tyranids didn't have a single opening in time and space to pour their armies through that could be defended.

You should probably get more familiar with the fluff before you make statements like that.

Edited for skirting rule #1. Please watch your tone. - MT11
Your telling me he could not find one more way into the IOM??
How many worlds are in the Empire again? A million? And a million more that they don't even know about, or cant reach, or have forgot about.
How many chaos covens are on those worlds? 1? 10? a 100,000? in 10k years you think he could have made another door into the IOM!! Just one!! Somewhere??
He had 10k years!! You would think he would at least try to open up two war fronts. Maybe 3 or 4. The way GW tells it chaos is everywhere.
All it takes is just one crazy psyker to get taken over by a demon to open a portal and chaos can pour into real space. Or so they say.
And then time to build up his forces...and as we know he had lots of time.
But hay if it makes you feel better he did carve his name into my IG army.... .... on the table top,and in the role playing game...so I guess he is wining..sort of.

He's called failbadon the armless cuz Eldrad's d*ckery always gets in the way of his goals.

God I love those dumb memes.

 Snogs wrote:
Don't talk to me about fluff.
How about just try to use some logic.
Your telling me he could not find one more way into the IOM??
How many worlds are in the Empire again? A million? And a million more that they don't even know about, or cant reach, or have forgot about.
How many chaos covens are on those worlds? 1? 10? a 100,000? in 10k years you think he could have made another door into the IOM!! Just one!! Somewhere??
He had 10k years!! You would think he would at least try to open up two war fronts. Maybe 3 or 4. The way GW tells it chaos is everywhere.
All it takes is just one crazy psyker to get taken over by a demon to open a portal and chaos can pour into real space. Or so they say.
And then time to build up his forces...and as we know he had lots of time.
But hay if it makes you feel better he did carve his name into my IG army.... .... on the table top,and in the role playing game...so I guess he is wining..sort of.

Even so an army needs a stable route, and the only stable route is past Cadia the second best defended planet in the IOM. While the Nids who are many things where Abbaddon is only one individual has wrecked damage because they attack from many sides. As a defense of Abbaddon, he must rally together the followers of four Chaos-gods who love to fight eachother, that takes effort since their Primarches are still up and kicking. So actually in logistics the guy is quite skilled.

 Snogs wrote:

Your telling me he could not find one more way into the IOM??

Actually, he has. It was how the Gothic War came about if I recall correctly. It wasn't a permanent opening though, so trying to shove as many men as possible through in time without any supply lines would have done damage to the Imperium but would have almost certainly ended up with the majority of his forces scattered or destroyed.

How many worlds are in the Empire again? A million? And a million more that they don't even know about, or cant reach, or have forgot about.

And? He can't get to the vast majority of them.

How many chaos covens are on those worlds? 1? 10? a 100,000? in 10k years you think he could have made another door into the IOM!! Just one!! Somewhere??
He had 10k years!! You would think he would at least try to open up two war fronts. Maybe 3 or 4. The way GW tells it chaos is everywhere.
All it takes is just one crazy psyker to get taken over by a demon to open a portal and chaos can pour into real space. Or so they say.

Those portals tend to bring through relatively insignificant amounts of forces. They might be able to ravage the system but there's no way Abaddon could bring through anyway near the number of forces required to do a great deal of damage to the Imperium. He can't open up two fronts. At best, he could try to send troops to different worlds but they wouldn't have the numbers to expand too much. Certainly not if the Imperium thought it was part of a new offensive by him.

And then time to build up his forces...and as we know he had lots of time.

Indeed. But so did the Imperium. Also, the Imperium is far more united than the Chaos forces, who fight each other much more often. Abaddon has to bring together a lot of disparate forces whose gods are in conflict with each other. It's not an easy task. Even still, he turned the Sons of Horus from a crippled force into the single most powerful Legion as the Black Legion. He did well.

You seem to assume that getting a lot of Chaos troops into Imperial space is easy and that Abaddon always has control over most (if that) of the Chaos forces. Neither is the case. He has to break through the Cadian Gate in order to establish a supply line (which is essential). The Imperium has more resources and greater manpower as well as being more unified. Why do you assume that it would be easy? The High Lords of Terra are terrified of Abaddon breaking loose so they send more forces against his Black Crusades than, presumably, any other threat. Without Abaddon there'd be far more forces available to face the myriad other threats facing the Imperium. He might not be taking large numbers of worlds but he's draining the Imperial armies and resources.

As SREG is pointing out the wormholes to the warp ain't stable. There is one single stable wormhole in the whole Galaxy and that's the Eye of Terror. And that's where the IOM has the best forces and the Imperial Navy as well which is the real backbone of the IOM. Without it, you could say bye-bye to everything, with it they get there in time, and in sufficient number as their starships are many and advanced enough to arrive in place and time. That's a luxury Abbaddon doesn't have as the IOM in general can just go for mucho, mucho torpedoes launched from Lunar Cruisers at extreme ranges (that's actually canon).

And has it been 10k years for him just because it has been for the IoM?

 Snogs wrote:
Your telling me he could not find one more way into the IOM??

He can, but not one stable or secure enough for an army of the size and formidability Abaddon needs.

How many worlds are in the Empire again? A million? And a million more that they don't even know about, or cant reach, or have forgot about.

Something like that.

How many chaos covens are on those worlds? 1? 10? a 100,000? in 10k years you think he could have made another door into the IOM!! Just one!! Somewhere??

That is some very nice speculation you have there.

He had 10k years!! You would think he would at least try to open up two war fronts. Maybe 3 or 4. The way GW tells it chaos is everywhere.
All it takes is just one crazy psyker to get taken over by a demon to open a portal and chaos can pour into real space. Or so they say.

And how would he get to those worlds without the Imperium noticing, and how would he control the Daemons of the unstable Warp Rift? Oh, he'd have to bring covens of sorcerers as well, of course. Which is all fine and dandy, but suddenly what you seem to believe is a "simple plan" is now far more convoluted and difficult to pull off.

And then time to build up his forces...and as we know he had lots of time.
But hay if it makes you feel better he did carve his name into my IG army.... .... on the table top,and in the role playing game...so I guess he is wining..sort of.

Building an army is not an easy or quick process, Abaddon can do so successfully in the bitchland, as Blax called it, because the Imperium can't pursue him there or discover the forces he is mustering.

Wish i could draw

Here's the idea a CM is holding some milk that went bad, and after complaining Abaddon the "Despoiler" arrives and fixes the problem.

Jokes aside he is just incompetent, in the books he is charismatic but the Red Corsairs have done more than he is in most ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Popenfresh wrote:
He's called failbadon the armless cuz Eldrad's d*ckery always gets in the way of his goals.

God I love those dumb memes.

I thought it was creed

Chaos would still exist without humanity, and the imperium. It would simply feed off the non-imperial sentient beings.

 Evileyes wrote:
Chaos would still exist without humanity, and the imperium. It would simply feed off the non-imperial sentient beings.

The Tau don't give anything to Chaos, the Eldar make damn sure they don't give anything, the Orks only give to Gork and Mork (who are more powerful than the warp gods), the Necrons have traditionally never given anything to the warp, the Tyranids only feed the hive mind.

I'm not seeing any potential for food from them.

There are more than like six races in the setting.

Meh, Abbadon gets a bad rap. He got the most difficult job, after all, since he's forced to take on the Cadians, the most badass Imperial Guard regiments in the galaxy.

Asymmetric warfare, my friend.
Its his only hope.
Its the only way to defeat a foe that has more "stuff" then you.
I think he did it once before, in one of GW world events. Or maybe it was in some fluff I read somewhere cant recall.
So I may be wrong on him trying to attack throw many warp gates at once.
But the point of it is to hit the enemy everywhere and from nowhere. And hit him where he is week. Bleed him out in the long run. And in Abbys case he has forever.
And the IOM just cant be everywhere, It just seems like he shot his whole wad at Cadia. And came up sort.

He failed to destroy the monoliths on Cadia,
He failed to land in enough force to maintain his planet side forces.
He failed to gain air or even more important space supremacy . <---those two things right there trump every thing he has planet side.
At least that is my understanding of how things are right now in the 40k timeline.
But if he had done both at the same time, combined with all the other stuff being thrown at the IOM I think he would have a better shot. That's all im saying.
But GW let his forces get pushed back, so I guess its their fault.

Abby seems like a failure because he is not allowed to get past the one spot he has to.
I dont see how it would hurt the game any by doing so other then maybe stealing forge worlds thunder a bit. As they are doing the HH.

And as a side note, I would have loved it for GW to have said that the IOM lost the battle of Cadia.
But yet the war still gos on, maybe wake up that guy sleeping in the Rock. Maybe let Russ can find his way home. There would be a lot they could do. They just dont seem to want to.

Feth that, let sleeping primarchs lie. There's far more interesting stories to tell than that.

 Melissia wrote:
Feth that, let sleeping primarchs lie. There's far more interesting stories to tell than that.

I am good with that to, I just want GW to go on and get around to telling them.

 Snogs wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Feth that, let sleeping primarchs lie. There's far more interesting stories to tell than that.

I am good with that to, I just want GW to go on and get around to telling them.

Do we really need to hear another atrocity like Kaldor Draigo in here?

 Snogs wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Feth that, let sleeping primarchs lie. There's far more interesting stories to tell than that.

I am good with that to, I just want GW to go on and get around to telling them.

The 40k universe is enough that one can easily go through it telling a billion different stories and not even get close to tapping its full creative potential. And that's just imperial stories, not counting the alien races or non-imperial humans.

 Kain wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
Chaos would still exist without humanity, and the imperium. It would simply feed off the non-imperial sentient beings.

The Tau don't give anything to Chaos, the Eldar make damn sure they don't give anything, the Orks only give to Gork and Mork (who are more powerful than the warp gods), the Necrons have traditionally never given anything to the warp, the Tyranids only feed the hive mind.

I'm not seeing any potential for food from them.

I'm not sure where your getting that these do not give anything! All of them (cept two) still give more to them.

Considering that Khorne has Orks fighting in his own Daemon World to train his Daemonic Heralds, as in he can see them just looking down from his castle beating the crap out of each other. I'd say that he gets plenty from the Orks, same with the others. Not to mention originally they could be converted to chaos (Retconned most likely however, but seeing as the Orks of Khorne enjoy fighting the Heralds of Khorne and that he's specifically pleased by them, maybe they are blessed in their own way..)

Eldar give to Warrior lusts, and kill plenty for Khorne's bloody cup, they plan with their byzantine ways and please Tzeentch, They are still infected, and their nation slowly decays, thus nurgle is pleased. The only one who is hosed here is Slaanesh, who is the ONLY ONE they are dedicated to fully fighting, they tried to save their goddess from nurgle, and in the end fell in his garden. And of course the Dark Eldar feed him so that he will not feed on them himself.

The tau can still be corrupted, they have a WEAK presence, not NO presence.

Tyranids/Necrons are the only ones that don't feed, and thats because Tyranids are Unthinking Beasts, and Necrons are built by their gods to fight the warp.

 Snogs wrote:

Asymmetric warfare, my friend.
Its his only hope.
Its the only way to defeat a foe that has more "stuff" then you.
I think he did it once before, in one of GW world events. Or maybe it was in some fluff I read somewhere cant recall.
So I may be wrong on him trying to attack throw many warp gates at once.
But the point of it is to hit the enemy everywhere and from nowhere. And hit him where he is week. Bleed him out in the long run. And in Abbys case he has forever.
And the IOM just cant be everywhere, It just seems like he shot his whole wad at Cadia. And came up sort.

He failed to destroy the monoliths on Cadia,
He failed to land in enough force to maintain his planet side forces.
He failed to gain air or even more important space supremacy . <---those two things right there trump every thing he has planet side.
At least that is my understanding of how things are right now in the 40k timeline.
But if he had done both at the same time, combined with all the other stuff being thrown at the IOM I think he would have a better shot. That's all im saying.
But GW let his forces get pushed back, so I guess its their fault.

Abby seems like a failure because he is not allowed to get past the one spot he has to.
I dont see how it would hurt the game any by doing so other then maybe stealing forge worlds thunder a bit. As they are doing the HH.

And as a side note, I would have loved it for GW to have said that the IOM lost the battle of Cadia.
But yet the war still gos on, maybe wake up that guy sleeping in the Rock. Maybe let Russ can find his way home. There would be a lot they could do. They just dont seem to want to.

Please read the Eye of Terror campaign results because much of what you said above is flat out incorrect:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

The Imperium did lose the Eye of Terror Campaign. Abaddon was last seen in the Thesus sector and is thus past Cadia. Space control is not the be all and end all of warfare in 40K. And in any case, Chaos has local orbital superiority over Cadia.

Much of what you said seems to have been highly distorted or given by Imperial players in denial over the results.