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A hypothesis;

Given: Warwalkers of any kind are so much cheaper, SLasers now have that lock feature; have 3 Warwalkers with SLaser + BLance.

Use S6s to possibly glance and if that fails, the BLances are TLd for possible 1-shot flyer knockdowns? This unit comes in at 210pts with a 5+inv and 6 total HP, not as accurate as the Crimson but a bit more durabler and versatile.

i just leave the Anti-air to our Tau battle brothers

If the concern about fielding crimson hunters is quadguns, waveserpents seem pretty good at taking them out. Turn 1 serpent w/ crystal targeting matrix and holofield, flat out, pop shield...good shot at killing the quad gun because aegis save is gone. Not necessarily point effective, but something to think about.

Yea, kill the interceptor stuff, and hide in tall ruins. your golden.

 buddha wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
What about a Fast Shot Flakk EML Reaper Exarch? It's two S7 shots needing 2s to hit and ignoring any jink saves.

Another idea I had was a Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Flakk EML. Scatter Laser should hopefully hit and TL the EML. The Scatter Laser might even do some damage.

The Crimson Hunter is pretty good as well but, in my opinion, you need an Autarch on the field to help delay its arrival. Shame its AV 10 all-round :(

If you're really short of options, just stick a DA Exarch on a Quad Gun or something.

That's an interesting idea. Problem is it runs 160pts to do it right and is still only 5 men strong and of course competes in that very competative heavy support slot.

And for 160pts you can get a Crimson Hunter, which is far superior anti air. The huge issue with Reapers is that only the Exarch can get Flakk, and he doesn't have Split Fire, which means if you try and use them for anti air you are wasting the Marine killing abilities of the unit. The best way to do it would be to just have them man a Quad Gun, since most of the time you will fire it Intercepting and you get twice as many shots.

I need to double check, but I don't think Wraithlords can get Flakk. From memory its just War Walkers and Dark Reaper Exarches for some reason. In either case you would be better of just Guiding a Wraithlord with 2 Bright Lances, its really easy to get 2 x Guide if you know you are going to need it.

There are actually plenty of ways to ensure your Crimson Hunter shows up second when you need it to. Against a flier heavy list you probably want double Guide anyway, so rolling twice on Divination to try and get Scriers Gaze is certainly a viable tactic. If you have more than one flier and other units which can make use of the reserves manipulation then an Autarch is viable as well. If you are really worried about it then you can get a Comms Relay for relatively cheap. 3 Crimson Hunters and a Comms relay is probably more reliable anti air than a Quad Gun, the Comms Relay can't be killed and the Hunters will punch out those annoying AV12 fliers much more reliably.

In general the new codex isn't great for anti air, but its important to remember that we still have plentiful access to S6 (and now S7 with Spiders) and double Guide and if you can get range even a squad of 5 Spiders will get a couple of S7 hits on a flier, which is enough to cause issues for the AV11 ones in particular. Otherwise I'm just planning on running a highly mobile list that is able to move under fliers and limit their options. People running Necron fliers heavy lists can't really do much when you can put your entire army 4-5" off his board edge turn 1 (which forces him to overshoot).

The better question is why take a crimson hunter when you can take a nightwing for cheaper. Both AV10, but the nightwing has shrouded and agile built in. With vector dancer's ability to get rear armor on any flier that just came on (36" move, vector dancer 90*, then 45* arch for guns), 3 shots S6 is about as good as 1 shot S8 AP2 at killing AV10. The Crimson hunter may do better vs Stormravens and may get more pens, but the nightwing gets more hull points gone. Explosions really dont matter here since if it dies, it crashes no matter.

So:
They match maneuverability.
Nightwing is more survivable by a lot unless jink is denied
Firepower is about equal
Nightwing is cheaper

 zephoid wrote:
The better question is why take a crimson hunter when you can take a nightwing for cheaper. Both AV10, but the nightwing has shrouded and agile built in. With vector dancer's ability to get rear armor on any flier that just came on (36" move, vector dancer 90*, then 45* arch for guns), 3 shots S6 is about as good as 1 shot S8 AP2 at killing AV10. The Crimson hunter may do better vs Stormravens and may get more pens, but the nightwing gets more hull points gone. Explosions really dont matter here since if it dies, it crashes no matter.

So:
They match maneuverability.
Nightwing is more survivable by a lot unless jink is denied
Firepower is about equal
Nightwing is cheaper

Well, if the meta in your gaming community allows forgeworld units, then ok. But that is a different game altogether. It really is a question of which flyers you're facing.

Radeus wrote:If the concern about fielding crimson hunters is quadguns, waveserpents seem pretty good at taking them out. Turn 1 serpent w/ crystal targeting matrix and holofield, flat out, pop shield...good shot at killing the quad gun because aegis save is gone. Not necessarily point effective, but something to think about.

Not seeing how the Serpent Field is much of a boost here, the Quad Gun has a 3+ normal and it can't go to ground so the 4+ cover from the Aegis will always be worse than its normal save and none of the Eldar torrent of fire weapons will get through that anyway.

zephoid wrote:The better question is why take a crimson hunter when you can take a nightwing for cheaper. Both AV10, but the nightwing has shrouded and agile built in. With vector dancer's ability to get rear armor on any flier that just came on (36" move, vector dancer 90*, then 45* arch for guns), 3 shots S6 is about as good as 1 shot S8 AP2 at killing AV10. The Crimson hunter may do better vs Stormravens and may get more pens, but the nightwing gets more hull points gone. Explosions really dont matter here since if it dies, it crashes no matter.

So:
They match maneuverability.
Nightwing is more survivable by a lot unless jink is denied
Firepower is about equal
Nightwing is cheaper

Well the obvious reason is that you can't use FW. Most tournaments are still up in the air regarding FW. Our local tournament scene moved towards allowing FW, but its currently swinging back a bit after people got sick of facing Sabre spam and 3 Warp Hunters.
In any case I expect all the Eldar FW units including the Nightwing will get an update some time in the near future to bring them up to date with the new codex, so I wouldn't rely on them staying good.

Powerguy wrote:
Not seeing how the Serpent Field is much of a boost here, the Quad Gun has a 3+ normal and it can't go to ground so the 4+ cover from the Aegis will always be worse than its normal save and none of the Eldar torrent of fire weapons will get through that anyway.

I derped and forgot it had an armor save!

Radeus wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Not seeing how the Serpent Field is much of a boost here, the Quad Gun has a 3+ normal and it can't go to ground so the 4+ cover from the Aegis will always be worse than its normal save and none of the Eldar torrent of fire weapons will get through that anyway.

I derped and forgot it had an armor save!

But still, targeting the squad manning the Quad Gun could wipe out the models controlling it at least (with ignores cover, depending on the unit).

PredaKhaine wrote:The reaper range finder is Dark Reaper war gear, so I don't think that transfers to Illic.

Re-read the reaper range finder rule. You only need one to make the whole unit ignore jink saves.

 The Shadow wrote:
Another idea I had was a Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Flakk EML. Scatter Laser should hopefully hit and TL the EML. The Scatter Laser might even do some damage.

Wraithlords can't take flakk missiles for some reason.

 dnanoodle wrote:
Theorius:

Scatter laser and shuricannon is one of my top picks for anti air right now.

Getting to hopefully twin link those d6+1 ignore cover str 7 shots on a croissant....PRICELESS.

11 shots on average twin linked is no joke!

I wanted to quote this in a new thread because the original comment points out something extremely helpful and that deserves discussion, but that goes beyond the scope of the first thread.

I personally think missiles cost way too much to be an effective anti-air choice. For me, anti-air is likely to come from Scatter Walkers, Nightwings and the Serpent loadout described here (which I was already using anyway). Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

Well, I think that's the best choice. The other options are too pricey or too unreliable.

Powerguy wrote:

 buddha wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
What about a Fast Shot Flakk EML Reaper Exarch? It's two S7 shots needing 2s to hit and ignoring any jink saves.

Another idea I had was a Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Flakk EML. Scatter Laser should hopefully hit and TL the EML. The Scatter Laser might even do some damage.

The Crimson Hunter is pretty good as well but, in my opinion, you need an Autarch on the field to help delay its arrival. Shame its AV 10 all-round :(

If you're really short of options, just stick a DA Exarch on a Quad Gun or something.

That's an interesting idea. Problem is it runs 160pts to do it right and is still only 5 men strong and of course competes in that very competative heavy support slot.

And for 160pts you can get a Crimson Hunter, which is far superior anti air. The huge issue with Reapers is that only the Exarch can get Flakk, and he doesn't have Split Fire, which means if you try and use them for anti air you are wasting the Marine killing abilities of the unit. The best way to do it would be to just have them man a Quad Gun, since most of the time you will fire it Intercepting and you get twice as many shots.

I need to double check, but I don't think Wraithlords can get Flakk. From memory its just War Walkers and Dark Reaper Exarches for some reason. In either case you would be better of just Guiding a Wraithlord with 2 Bright Lances, its really easy to get 2 x Guide if you know you are going to need it.

Yeah, my bad. WLs don't, sadly, get Skyfire missiles. I'm getting confused with Flakk and Starshot. Sharshot sounds like it should have Skyfire...

As for making the crimson hunter more surviable you can give it a 10pt upgrade of the holo-field can you not as it is a vehicle and can according to how I read it take any vehicle upgrade giving it a 5++ or that other vehicle upgrade that improves your junk save by +1 as long as you moved aslo for like 10pts. I'm going to get one for my eldar antit-air but for the time being my eldar are just allies for my guard lol

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
As for making the crimson hunter more surviable you can give it a 10pt upgrade of the holo-field can you not as it is a vehicle and can according to how I read it take any vehicle upgrade giving it a 5++ or that other vehicle upgrade that improves your junk save by +1 as long as you moved aslo for like 10pts. I'm going to get one for my eldar antit-air but for the time being my eldar are just allies for my guard lol

Sadly the Crimson Hunter doesn't have access to the Vehicle upgrades.......

I just don't see a gun emplacement surviving a turn against a eldar player. Especially one with a flier coming in. Then again I wouldnt run a list without 1 or 2 ranger units

Oh perhaps I need to read more lol

ghpoobah wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
As for making the crimson hunter more surviable you can give it a 10pt upgrade of the holo-field can you not as it is a vehicle and can according to how I read it take any vehicle upgrade giving it a 5++ or that other vehicle upgrade that improves your junk save by +1 as long as you moved aslo for like 10pts. I'm going to get one for my eldar antit-air but for the time being my eldar are just allies for my guard lol

Sadly the Crimson Hunter doesn't have access to the Vehicle upgrades.......

and holofields are 15 points.

The Dakka serpent gets my vote.

 Sasori wrote:

With a Waveserpent, they should have little trouble getting where they need to be. Yes, you can only have 6 in a Serpent, but are you going to be taking more Dragons than that?

You also don't have to make them troops, if you don't want a Spiritseer. Just keep them in elites.

I just see Wraithguard, as much better than Firedragons, by a fair margin.

This has been said a lot with this codex, but i have to disagree.

Fire Dragons probably will blow up that landraider.

Wraithguard probably wont blow up that landraider.

So if you want a dedicated mounted anti tank unit you can rely on, you need dragons. Wraithguard are a better all round unit although I dont think wraithcannons are great against anything really.

People overstate the effectiveness of melta versus av14; it's only slightly better than s10... And in this case, 6" of range is the primary difference - since flyers are so fast, they can often stay juuuust out of melta range, not to mention half of the flyers I care about are immune to melta anyways...

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:... I don't think wraithcannons are great against anything really.

Sorry, this quote out of context is just really funny.

An entire, potentially scoring squad (heck, entire army) wielding Strength 10, AP 2 weaponry is insane. I am happily running a 5 man Wraithguard Squad with Wraithcannons (led by a spiritseer) to be a deal-with-anything unit. The only benefits of the Fire Dragons in my eyes is their increased focus on vehicle killing and they are much cheaper than the way I am running The Wraithguard (110 pts vs 230). On the other hand, the Wraithguard may live to shoot at a 2nd target.

We also cannot forget the trend of Ceramite Armor on many of the new, highly popular Flyers out there. Fire Dragons can't deal with everything. I say, if you have room, bring both. (I would venture to predict we will see Wraithguard almost replace Fire Dragons, if it wasn't for the fact that most Eldar players own 1-3 squads of Dragons already.)

War Walkers and Wave Serpents are the way to go for me.

Scatter laser/Starcannon Walkers, and SL/SC Serpents.

In a tournament list i'm using, I also invested in flakk missiles for a reaper exarch. Expensive, but good backup. Twin link the squad and they can hopefully get a snapshot or two, while he puts out two TL Flakk missiles at BS5, ignoring Jink. I just have to hope my opponent ignores them for a turn.

Belly wrote:
War Walkers and Wave Serpents are the way to go for me.

Scatter laser/Starcannon Walkers, and SL/SC Serpents.

In a tournament list i'm using, I also invested in flakk missiles for a reaper exarch. Expensive, but good backup. Twin link the squad and they can hopefully get a snapshot or two, while he puts out two TL Flakk missiles at BS5, ignoring Jink. I just have to hope my opponent ignores them for a turn.

In fact, in a mech Eldar list, dakka Serpents and Warwalkers with scatter lasers are the way to go.
But I'd hesitate to use Dark Reapers as they are still rather expensive and their damage output (due to cover) is not that great.

 Super Ready wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
The Exarch is worth the points since you could have only gotten 2 hits off and at that moment your probably cursing yourself and saying "why didn't I get the Exarch!". Really BS 5 is there so you can reassure yourself that the Hunter won't miss it's chance to wreck a flyer.

This is pretty much it. The Crimson Hunter is so vulnerable to other flyers, if you're using it to take one on, you HAVE to be able to reliably take it down in one turn.

I'm not too sure dogfights are too bad for Crimson Hunters.
With their skills and the extra turns, etc, Eldar have the most agile aircraft I know of. Just stay out of the other flyer's fire arc, and you're set.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
The Exarch is worth the points since you could have only gotten 2 hits off and at that moment your probably cursing yourself and saying "why didn't I get the Exarch!". Really BS 5 is there so you can reassure yourself that the Hunter won't miss it's chance to wreck a flyer.

This is pretty much it. The Crimson Hunter is so vulnerable to other flyers, if you're using it to take one on, you HAVE to be able to reliably take it down in one turn.

I'm not too sure dogfights are too bad for Crimson Hunters.
With their skills and the extra turns, etc, Eldar have the most agile aircraft I know of. Just stay out of the other flyer's fire arc, and you're set.

Staying outside of the fire range of other flyers is an issue. A Helldrake with baleflamer (vector strike) can be easier avoided than say a Night Scythe.
It appears that the most reliable anti-air can come from dakka Serpents with scatter laser and underslung shuricannon.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
The Exarch is worth the points since you could have only gotten 2 hits off and at that moment your probably cursing yourself and saying "why didn't I get the Exarch!". Really BS 5 is there so you can reassure yourself that the Hunter won't miss it's chance to wreck a flyer.

This is pretty much it. The Crimson Hunter is so vulnerable to other flyers, if you're using it to take one on, you HAVE to be able to reliably take it down in one turn.

I'm not too sure dogfights are too bad for Crimson Hunters.
With their skills and the extra turns, etc, Eldar have the most agile aircraft I know of. Just stay out of the other flyer's fire arc, and you're set.

Staying outside of the fire range of other flyers is an issue. A Helldrake with baleflamer (vector strike) can be easier avoided than say a Night Scythe.
It appears that the most reliable anti-air can come from dakka Serpents with scatter laser and underslung shuricannon.

I think this is where vector dancer shines though. You can move the Crimson Hunter on 36" where its past the Nightscythe's next turn, then take your extra turn to put all your weapons back in arc. Flyers without turrets are particularly vulnerable to hunter's since the Eldar fighter can slip behind them and still shoot.

You don't have to come in with a flyer in a straight line, the Scythe could come in at an angle and still shoot the Crimson Hunter. So your Flyer will be more or less blown up if its on the board first.

Thimn wrote:
You don't have to come in with a flyer in a straight line, the Scythe could come in at an angle and still shoot the Crimson Hunter. So your Flyer will be more or less blown up if its on the board first.

Which the incredibly cheap Autarch helps you control (+1 or -1, determined after rollling). And also any flyer that comes on first is more vulernable than one that comes on second. The Crimson Hunter is particularly good anti-air with Vector Dancer and rerolling failed armor penetrations against flyers.

@PanzerLeader: You give valid points, but you never know when the dice are going to troll you, so what better way to avoid that than by increasing the odds? Not to mention if the opponent doesn't have all of his fliers in then vector dancer might not be a savior.

GTKA666 wrote:
@PanzerLeader: You give valid points, but you never know when the dice are going to troll you, so what better way to avoid that than by increasing the odds? Not to mention if the opponent doesn't have all of his fliers in then vector dancer might not be a savior.

I like dakka serpents too, but they cost as much as a crimson hunter by the time you include the transported squad. Plus, the S6 can only glance the tougher flyers on most facings. I think in a TAC Eldar list, a crimson hunter is your primary AA with dakka serpents as backups. The serpent by itself is only averaging one hit per turn when snap firing.