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Theorius:

Scatter laser and shuricannon is one of my top picks for anti air right now.

Getting to hopefully twin link those d6+1 ignore cover str 7 shots on a croissant....PRICELESS.

11 shots on average twin linked is no joke!

I wanted to quote this in a new thread because the original comment points out something extremely helpful and that deserves discussion, but that goes beyond the scope of the first thread.

I personally think missiles cost way too much to be an effective anti-air choice. For me, anti-air is likely to come from Scatter Walkers, Nightwings and the Serpent loadout described here (which I was already using anyway). Does anyone have any other thoughts on this?

The Crimson Hunter, if you can bring it on after other Flyers, should take down enemy flyers with ease.

and if it comes on before its toast. Hell, even the interceptor fire should take it down from a quad gun unless you jink. AV10 fliers with no defensive equipment are worthless.

Most of my AA will be coming from nightwings. find a ruin to fly by when you come on and watch them be frustrated with your 2+ save without even jinking thanks to shrouding. Weapons on that thing are just as good as the crimson hunter, though the lack of the re-roll pens is a disadvantage.

FD also work fine if you have a farseer nearby. TL the shots and fliers fall down. Helps that FD are auto-takes.

The wave serpent tactic is good. You can also throw the underslung cannon onto that list of firepower too. Wont do much vs helldrakes, but sticking exarchs on quad guns always helps too. Thow enough firepower at most fliers and they will jink, which allows you to ignore them for that turn.

Flak missiles are worthless. S7 vs AV12 doesnt work unless you have high rof.

 zephoid wrote:
and if it comes on before its toast. Hell, even the interceptor fire should take it down from a quad gun unless you jink. AV10 fliers with no defensive equipment are worthless.

Most of my AA will be coming from nightwings. find a ruin to fly by when you come on and watch them be frustrated with your 2+ save without even jinking thanks to shrouding. Weapons on that thing are just as good as the crimson hunter, though the lack of the re-roll pens is a disadvantage.

FD also work fine if you have a farseer nearby. TL the shots and fliers fall down. Helps that FD are auto-takes.

The wave serpent tactic is good. You can also throw the underslung cannon onto that list of firepower too. Wont do much vs helldrakes, but sticking exarchs on quad guns always helps too. Thow enough firepower at most fliers and they will jink, which allows you to ignore them for that turn.

Flak missiles are worthless. S7 vs AV12 doesnt work unless you have high rof.

This is true, they are very fragile. I don't know about Worthless though. I may take a Mantle/Jetbike Autarch to help with it. We'll have to see. Like the Wraithknight, I'm not in a hurry to purchase it, for now I'll just proxy with my Scythes. If they don't work out, there are plenty of other options.

Firedragons really aren't auto-take anymore though. Wraithguard can do their job, can score, and have great multi-purpose weapons.

They can also act as a farseer bunker and it is much easier to get within 12" of a flyer than 6".

Crimson Hunter is great for AA as has been said already, but you really just need Scatter Walkers or a WS with TL SL to go for them aerial takedowns. Only thing that Eldar have a hard time against is the Necron assload of flyers, but I don't know their ability to shoot down a flyer. SOme one have stats for the Necron flyers?

GTKA666 wrote:
Crimson Hunter is great for AA as has been said already, but you really just need Scatter Walkers or a WS with TL SL to go for them aerial takedowns. Only thing that Eldar have a hard time against is the Necron assload of flyers, but I don't know their ability to shoot down a flyer. SOme one have stats for the Necron flyers?

All Necron flyers have a TL S7 Heavy 4 Tesla Weapon. In othewords, it will creame AV10 with ease. They are all 11/11/11

Lack of battle focus and fleet on WG really hurts. 4-5" less range essentially on their weapons and slower to cross the table. Also you have to take small squads if you want transport. Finally, i would rather take more useful things in the heavily contested HQ slot rather than a spiritseer to make them troops. Those autarchs on jetbikes... and karandras or Fuegan both look very sexy in melee Then eldrad wants a piece in there too and the buffed up avatar might raise his head. Nightspear might show for fluff reasons as i have a large ranger force i have been dying to use for ages and i need someone to lead.

 zephoid wrote:
Lack of battle focus and fleet on WG really hurts. 4-5" less range essentially on their weapons and slower to cross the table. Also you have to take small squads if you want transport. Finally, i would rather take more useful things in the heavily contested HQ slot rather than a spiritseer to make them troops. Those autarchs on jetbikes... and karandras or Fuegan both look very sexy in melee Then eldrad wants a piece in there too and the buffed up avatar might raise his head. Nightspear might show for fluff reasons as i have a large ranger force i have been dying to use for ages and i need someone to lead.

With a Waveserpent, they should have little trouble getting where they need to be. Yes, you can only have 6 in a Serpent, but are you going to be taking more Dragons than that?

You also don't have to make them troops, if you don't want a Spiritseer. Just keep them in elites.

I just see Wraithguard, as much better than Firedragons, by a fair margin.

 Sasori wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
Crimson Hunter is great for AA as has been said already, but you really just need Scatter Walkers or a WS with TL SL to go for them aerial takedowns. Only thing that Eldar have a hard time against is the Necron assload of flyers, but I don't know their ability to shoot down a flyer. SOme one have stats for the Necron flyers?

All Necron flyers have a TL S7 Heavy 4 Tesla Weapon. In othewords, it will creame AV10 with ease. They are all 11/11/11

hmmmm what is the range? That also helps in determining the range of GTFO for the Crimson Hunter...so if the Eldar tactician was smart and had 2 of them in a tourney (meaning was smart while the number does not indicate whether they are smart or not) that means 2 flyers are gone that turn they come on (having all flyers come in on turn 2 and assuming there is no other AA on the field for both sides). The necron flyers would prob then fly off the board in fear and then the Eldar player would have the choice of flying off the board or take out something else.

So long as Eldar players go 2nd and both sides fliers come on, then we should be good to go.

GTKA666 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:
Crimson Hunter is great for AA as has been said already, but you really just need Scatter Walkers or a WS with TL SL to go for them aerial takedowns. Only thing that Eldar have a hard time against is the Necron assload of flyers, but I don't know their ability to shoot down a flyer. SOme one have stats for the Necron flyers?

All Necron flyers have a TL S7 Heavy 4 Tesla Weapon. In othewords, it will creame AV10 with ease. They are all 11/11/11

hmmmm what is the range? That also helps in determining the range of GTFO for the Crimson Hunter...so if the Eldar tactician was smart and had 2 of them in a tourney (meaning was smart while the number does not indicate whether they are smart or not) that means 2 flyers are gone that turn they come on (having all flyers come in on turn 2 and assuming there is no other AA on the field for both sides). The necron flyers would prob then fly off the board in fear and then the Eldar player would have the choice of flying off the board or take out something else.

So long as Eldar players go 2nd and both sides fliers come on, then we should be good to go.

Expect to see at least 2-4 Necron Flyers on average. Their Weapons have 24' range.

Annihilation barges can also quite effectively down the Eldar flyers.

@GTKA666

Why is the eldar player smarter than the necron player? Who flies their scythes off the board against one of if not the flimsiest flyer in the game?

You also have to manage to come on after a list that probably had only 3 of 4-5 flyers come on turn 2 assuming you even went second and semi average luck.

I think you will see alot of partially dead flyers from the crimson hunters and stripping the last hull points with waveserpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me add that eldar players are definitely better looking and more haughty but I only would like to believe they are smarter.

Attaching Illic to a unit of Reapers behind a Defense Line would give you a Quad Gun/Icarus that ignores jinks that you can split fire at bs9, at least that's how I interpreted the rangefinder rule.

Whether that's worth considering is another issue but I thought it was kind of funny =P.

I just finished assembling a Crimson Hunter as my goto "anti air" unit for Eldar. It seems pretty slick with the option of BS 5 and Exarch powers (along with vector dancer and sky hunter, which just make it awesome). But, if there are NO flyers for the opposing army ... well, I guess my flyer will fly in circles and take pot shots.

I'm a little confused with the laser-lock rule. Do you roll all laser weaponry first, then twin link any non-laser weapons afterwards if those weapons hit? Or, do you roll each laser lock weapon one at a time, until you get a hit and all subsequent shots from that unit are then twin linked? In other words, does the Crimson Hunter benefit from Laser Lock if it doesn't take Starcannons, as it's stock load-out are all laser weapons? I'm just trying to determine the effectiveness of this model in general.

 ansacs wrote:
@GTKA666

Why is the eldar player smarter than the necron player? Who flies their scythes off the board against one of if not the flimsiest flyer in the game?

You also have to manage to come on after a list that probably had only 3 of 4-5 flyers come on turn 2 assuming you even went second and semi average luck.

I think you will see alot of partially dead flyers from the crimson hunters and stripping the last hull points with waveserpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me add that eldar players are definitely better looking and more haughty but I only would like to believe they are smarter.

Re-re read my post. I never said one player was smarter than the other, just if the Eldar general was smart, he would think of how to evade most of the AA while dealing the most damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evildrspock wrote:
I just finished assembling a Crimson Hunter as my goto "anti air" unit for Eldar. It seems pretty slick with the option of BS 5 and Exarch powers (along with vector dancer and sky hunter, which just make it awesome). But, if there are NO flyers for the opposing army ... well, I guess my flyer will fly in circles and take pot shots.

I'm a little confused with the laser-lock rule. Do you roll all laser weaponry first, then twin link any non-laser weapons afterwards if those weapons hit? Or, do you roll each laser lock weapon one at a time, until you get a hit and all subsequent shots from that unit are then twin linked? In other words, does the Crimson Hunter benefit from Laser Lock if it doesn't take Starcannons, as it's stock load-out are all laser weapons? I'm just trying to determine the effectiveness of this model in general.

Laser lock only works with Scatter lasers and the rule only applies to the model that fired the weapon. As for a Crimson hunter having no air units to shoot at means that pesky tank in the back is now gone.

 zephoid wrote:
i would rather take more useful things in the heavily contested HQ slot rather than a spiritseer to make them troops. Those autarchs on jetbikes... and karandras or Fuegan both look very sexy in melee Then eldrad wants a piece in there too and the buffed up avatar might raise his head. Nightspear might show for fluff reasons as i have a large ranger force i have been dying to use for ages and i need someone to lead.

How it is that crowded when you have double force org at 2k points+ ?


I think double force org will be more necessary than ever before with this codex.

Can the wraithknight be used for an anti-air use. Sorry for the noob question - more of a painter than gamer...

Tabbs wrote:
Attaching Illic to a unit of Reapers behind a Defense Line would give you a Quad Gun/Icarus that ignores jinks that you can split fire at bs9, at least that's how I interpreted the rangefinder rule.

Whether that's worth considering is another issue but I thought it was kind of funny =P.

The reaper range finder is Dark Reaper war gear, so I don't think that transfers to Illic.

The exarch can have a flakk missile and fast shot ,so I'd stick a normal reaper on the quad gun (its twin linked anyway so you don't need a massive bs skill) and get 6 skyfire shots and then snap shot with the rest. That should hurt a bit...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vivster wrote:
Can the wraithknight be used for an anti-air use. Sorry for the noob question - more of a painter than gamer...

I didn't see anything to help it shoot fliers. The suncannon can't shoot fliers and the big wraithcannons will only hit on 6's. You could twin link with a shoulder mounted scatter laser, but then you forgo one of your big cannons shooting as it's an MC and can only fire two guns.

GTKA666 wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
I just finished assembling a Crimson Hunter as my goto "anti air" unit for Eldar. It seems pretty slick with the option of BS 5 and Exarch powers (along with vector dancer and sky hunter, which just make it awesome). But, if there are NO flyers for the opposing army ... well, I guess my flyer will fly in circles and take pot shots.

I'm a little confused with the laser-lock rule. Do you roll all laser weaponry first, then twin link any non-laser weapons afterwards if those weapons hit? Or, do you roll each laser lock weapon one at a time, until you get a hit and all subsequent shots from that unit are then twin linked? In other words, does the Crimson Hunter benefit from Laser Lock if it doesn't take Starcannons, as it's stock load-out are all laser weapons? I'm just trying to determine the effectiveness of this model in general.

Laser lock only works with Scatter lasers and the rule only applies to the model that fired the weapon. As for a Crimson hunter having no air units to shoot at means that pesky tank in the back is now gone.

Well, my only concern is that since it doesn't have interceptor, it will be much less effective against ground targets, including the new monstrous Wraithknight (should an opponent decide to take one!), as it is Jump MC, not a Flying MC. Still good against skimmers, though. It is a nice "fluffy" way to make it extra effective against Flyers (super specialization along the trend of Aspect Warriors), and yet help it's points cost not be too horrendously high.

Well, my only concern is that since it doesn't have interceptor, it will be much less effective against ground targets

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I believe flyers get to choose whether they are Skyfire or not (and are the only units, other than those with Interceptor, that can). Therefore, flyers don't need both in order to be effective at hitting ground targets. Check the flyers page in the BBB.

As a result, no problem! They make good anti-air and good tank hunters. Now, to deal with the armor 10 problem...

 Coogaar wrote:

Well, my only concern is that since it doesn't have interceptor, it will be much less effective against ground targets

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I believe flyers get to choose whether they are Skyfire or not (and are the only units, other than those with Interceptor, that can). Therefore, flyers don't need both in order to be effective at hitting ground targets. Check the flyers page in the BBB.

As a result, no problem! They make good anti-air and good tank hunters. Now, to deal with the armor 10 problem...

Not only do they get to choose they must choose. You must declare at the beginning of your shooting phase which of your flyers is shooting skyfire or ground targets. This only plays a role if you have 2 flyers and you want to shoot down an enemy flyer. You must declare both are skyfiring and if the 1st one shoots it down the second must only snapshoot at ground targets.(unless the are other skyborne targets ofc)

 zephoid wrote:
and if it comes on before its toast. Hell, even the interceptor fire should take it down from a quad gun unless you jink. AV10 fliers with no defensive equipment are worthless.

A full squad of Eldar Rangers should be able to reliably pop any Quad gun or Icarus lascannon on the first turn before your flier even shows up. They are even useful vs. Riptides and Broadsides and Havocs. Take an autarch if you want to help delay it coming in after your opponent's flyer(s).

If the quad is behind an ADL its not actually very reliable:
10 shots 6.6 hit, 1.1 rends, 2.2 wounds.
.55 unsaved rends .73 wounds unsaved.
So you did 1.3 wounds to the quad gun first turn. You need at least another 5 rangers, and even then its a pretty good chance you will fail if he rolls even slightly better than average.

This is why snipers are not effective. Between inv saves, cover saves, and the difficulty of getting quantity of rends to put wounds on target, they are almost never cost effective at killing MC/low save+high tough targets. Snipers needed ignore cover and no-LOS(or a - modifier) default if GW wanted to make them effective weapons.

 evildrspock wrote:
I just finished assembling a Crimson Hunter as my goto "anti air" unit for Eldar. It seems pretty slick with the option of BS 5 and Exarch powers (along with vector dancer and sky hunter, which just make it awesome). But, if there are NO flyers for the opposing army ... well, I guess my flyer will fly in circles and take pot shots.

I'm a little confused with the laser-lock rule. Do you roll all laser weaponry first, then twin link any non-laser weapons afterwards if those weapons hit? Or, do you roll each laser lock weapon one at a time, until you get a hit and all subsequent shots from that unit are then twin linked? In other words, does the Crimson Hunter benefit from Laser Lock if it doesn't take Starcannons, as it's stock load-out are all laser weapons? I'm just trying to determine the effectiveness of this model in general.

On the topic of the exarch:

He struck me as a big waste of points. If you look at the hunter as a pure air-superiority fighter (as I do) he doesn't bring a while lot to the table. You are shooting 4 S8 AP2 shots at BS 4 normally, and get to re-roll your pen checks vs. flyers. Someone more versed in mathhammer can give you an exact percentage, but I'm filling that under "anything I shoot dies" BS5 will up the percentage, but I'm guessing only a tiny amount. And I was underwhelmed by the exarch powers available. The boost to precision shot does nothing when shooting at vehicles, and the ignore nightfighting is situational at best. It's only going to come up if you have the night fighting at the end, rather then the beginning of the game, or if someone is doing wacky stuff that causes the nightfighting rules to come up. Not worth the points, IMHO.

Now if you swap out the brightlances for the star cannons, and go after ground targets, he might be worth it. But we have a lot of other things that can vaporize troops for a lot less points.

First0f0ne wrote:

 Coogaar wrote:

Well, my only concern is that since it doesn't have interceptor, it will be much less effective against ground targets

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I believe flyers get to choose whether they are Skyfire or not (and are the only units, other than those with Interceptor, that can). Therefore, flyers don't need both in order to be effective at hitting ground targets. Check the flyers page in the BBB.

As a result, no problem! They make good anti-air and good tank hunters. Now, to deal with the armor 10 problem...

Not only do they get to choose they must choose. You must declare at the beginning of your shooting phase which of your flyers is shooting skyfire or ground targets. This only plays a role if you have 2 flyers and you want to shoot down an enemy flyer. You must declare both are skyfiring and if the 1st one shoots it down the second must only snapshoot at ground targets.(unless the are other skyborne targets ofc)

I haven't used flyers for a while, I guess. Ok, that makes it the best anti-tank vehicle in the codex for pure firepower, I think. I can see the benefit of precision shots here - 4 s8 ap2 shots at your enemy's HQ or heavy weapons guy, not bad. This can definitely help sway assaults on the ground when you kill that powerfist, or enemy character, giving him added benefits. This is important to point out as flyers always need multiple roles should their intended purpose (taking down other flyers) be null if the opponent has none.

 Nevelon wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
I just finished assembling a Crimson Hunter as my goto "anti air" unit for Eldar. It seems pretty slick with the option of BS 5 and Exarch powers (along with vector dancer and sky hunter, which just make it awesome). But, if there are NO flyers for the opposing army ... well, I guess my flyer will fly in circles and take pot shots.

I'm a little confused with the laser-lock rule. Do you roll all laser weaponry first, then twin link any non-laser weapons afterwards if those weapons hit? Or, do you roll each laser lock weapon one at a time, until you get a hit and all subsequent shots from that unit are then twin linked? In other words, does the Crimson Hunter benefit from Laser Lock if it doesn't take Starcannons, as it's stock load-out are all laser weapons? I'm just trying to determine the effectiveness of this model in general.

On the topic of the exarch:

He struck me as a big waste of points. If you look at the hunter as a pure air-superiority fighter (as I do) he doesn't bring a while lot to the table. You are shooting 4 S8 AP2 shots at BS 4 normally, and get to re-roll your pen checks vs. flyers. Someone more versed in mathhammer can give you an exact percentage, but I'm filling that under "anything I shoot dies" BS5 will up the percentage, but I'm guessing only a tiny amount. And I was underwhelmed by the exarch powers available. The boost to precision shot does nothing when shooting at vehicles, and the ignore nightfighting is situational at best. It's only going to come up if you have the night fighting at the end, rather then the beginning of the game, or if someone is doing wacky stuff that causes the nightfighting rules to come up. Not worth the points, IMHO.

Now if you swap out the brightlances for the star cannons, and go after ground targets, he might be worth it. But we have a lot of other things that can vaporize troops for a lot less points.

The Exarch is worth the points since you could have only gotten 2 hits off and at that moment your probably cursing yourself and saying "why didn't I get the Exarch!". Really BS 5 is there so you can reassure yourself that the Hunter won't miss it's chance to wreck a flyer.

GTKA666 wrote:
The Exarch is worth the points since you could have only gotten 2 hits off and at that moment your probably cursing yourself and saying "why didn't I get the Exarch!". Really BS 5 is there so you can reassure yourself that the Hunter won't miss it's chance to wreck a flyer.

This is pretty much it. The Crimson Hunter is so vulnerable to other flyers, if you're using it to take one on, you HAVE to be able to reliably take it down in one turn.

What about a Fast Shot Flakk EML Reaper Exarch? It's two S7 shots needing 2s to hit and ignoring any jink saves.

Another idea I had was a Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Flakk EML. Scatter Laser should hopefully hit and TL the EML. The Scatter Laser might even do some damage.

The Crimson Hunter is pretty good as well but, in my opinion, you need an Autarch on the field to help delay its arrival. Shame its AV 10 all-round :(

If you're really short of options, just stick a DA Exarch on a Quad Gun or something.

 Sasori wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Lack of battle focus and fleet on WG really hurts. 4-5" less range essentially on their weapons and slower to cross the table. Also you have to take small squads if you want transport. Finally, i would rather take more useful things in the heavily contested HQ slot rather than a spiritseer to make them troops. Those autarchs on jetbikes... and karandras or Fuegan both look very sexy in melee Then eldrad wants a piece in there too and the buffed up avatar might raise his head. Nightspear might show for fluff reasons as i have a large ranger force i have been dying to use for ages and i need someone to lead.

With a Waveserpent, they should have little trouble getting where they need to be. Yes, you can only have 6 in a Serpent, but are you going to be taking more Dragons than that?

You also don't have to make them troops, if you don't want a Spiritseer. Just keep them in elites.

I just see Wraithguard, as much better than Firedragons, by a fair margin.

It's 6 Dragons to a Falcon.

10 Dragons to a Serpent and, 2 other dudes.

 The Shadow wrote:
What about a Fast Shot Flakk EML Reaper Exarch? It's two S7 shots needing 2s to hit and ignoring any jink saves.

Another idea I had was a Wraithlord with Scatter Laser and Flakk EML. Scatter Laser should hopefully hit and TL the EML. The Scatter Laser might even do some damage.

The Crimson Hunter is pretty good as well but, in my opinion, you need an Autarch on the field to help delay its arrival. Shame its AV 10 all-round :(

If you're really short of options, just stick a DA Exarch on a Quad Gun or something.

That's an interesting idea. Problem is it runs 160pts to do it right and is still only 5 men strong and of course competes in that very competative heavy support slot.