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In previous editions, activating a FW counted as casting a psychic power, because there was no mechanic of “Warp Charge”, and instead psykers just had a maximum # of psychic powers they could cast per turn. So to create the same limitation we have now, they made activating a FW count as casting a power.

Nowadays there is no verbiage stating that it counts as casting a power. It uses some of the same mechanics (expend a warp charge, take a psychic test), but as SR said, that doesn’t make it the same thing. And as DN pointed out, the psychic rules themselves list psychic powers and FW activation as two different possible uses of warp charge.

Force USR points to the rules for casting Psychic powers.

If you are following the rules for a psychic power, then you are casting a psychic power. This is because "If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" (67) but "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" (67)

So either it is a Psychic power, or Force does nothing as Psychic tests are only used to make a psychic power fail, or manifest successfully.

Don't forget you can perils. So it has all the same motions of a psychic power but because its not spelled out perfectly its not a power. Odd indeed. I'm going err on the side of caution and say its a power. A blessing cast in the assault phase none the less.

If it looks, smells, and acts like a duck, then a duck it is.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force USR points to the rules for casting Psychic powers.

If you are following the rules for a psychic power, then you are casting a psychic power. This is because "If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" (67) but "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" (67)

So either it is a Psychic power, or Force does nothing as Psychic tests are only used to make a psychic power fail, or manifest successfully.

DR I disagree on this one.

The Force USR specifically overrides that with its own rules on what to do if the Psychic test passes or fails.

Hence that part of 67 does not apply.

Activating a Force Weapon is not a Psychic Power.

Force weapons are psychic powers in the exact same manner an Ironclad is a Dreadnought, which is to say that a general descriptor can be applied to a specific item that allows said item to be treated in all ways as the general descriptor for rule purposes. Per the BRB, psychic powers may be granted from wargear, special rules can be granted by psychic posers and wargear, and force weapons are wargear that have a special rule that treats them in all ways like a psychic power. Per GW's treatment of one thing "counting as" another in the rules, force weapons are wargear that act in all ways as a blessing psychic power with a special rule allowing it to be used during each player turn as long as a specific triggering condition occurs. This means that force weapons ARE psychic powers per the BRB, without actually being noted as such in their own rules (hence my 'Ironclad' example).

As such, per the OP, if indeed Death Mission does remove the ability for its target to cast psychic powers, then the target would in fact not be allowed to activate its force weapon per strict reading of RAW after being effected by Death Mission.

Always remember, individual 6th Ed rules cannot function in a vacuum. The most accurate interpretation can be found for a general parsing of the rules as a whole to locate how a specific issue might be handled in the rules as written.

SJ

Durandal wrote:
Lets look at this another way. If using a force weapon is a psychic power, does that mean it can be resisted by deny the witch, or negated by psychic hoods or rune weapons?

plenty of powers are not DtW able.... force specifically does not target the enemy, and has no DtW in ins UsR

I think everything this in this thread is wrong so far. If you look at the MSS ruling, clearly the force weapon ability is part of the weapon not the psyker. Death Mission is cast on the psyker not the weapon, so obviously the weapon is free to use its force ability.

tgf wrote:
I think everything this in this thread is wrong so far. If you look at the MSS ruling, clearly the force weapon ability is part of the weapon not the psyker. Death Mission is cast on the psyker not the weapon, so obviously the weapon is free to use its force ability.

so we check against the weapons LD? and the weapon takes a wound and expends ward chages if perils/succesfull cast of a "non" power?

why are you following rules for pychic powers on somethign thats not a power?

force is a power with unique rules, but still a power, it fufills all the requirements of a power, and follows the normal rules for such. That you cant DtW it doesnt mean its not a power,

 easysauce wrote:

tgf wrote:
I think everything this in this thread is wrong so far. If you look at the MSS ruling, clearly the force weapon ability is part of the weapon not the psyker. Death Mission is cast on the psyker not the weapon, so obviously the weapon is free to use its force ability.

so we check against the weapons LD? and the weapon takes a wound and expends ward chages if perils/succesfull cast of a "non" power?

why are you following rules for pychic powers on somethign thats not a power?

force is a power with unique rules, but still a power, it fufills all the requirements of a power, and follows the normal rules for such. That you cant DtW it doesnt mean its not a power,

So why does the BRB list it separately from powers in reasons to spend a Warp Charge?

Point is its a weapon ability not a psyker ability the way GW has defined it. A psyker without a force weapon can't do force kills, and if a non-psyker could get a force weapon they wouldn't be able to use its ability. Its not a psyker power it is its own thing.

To activate a force weapon you need to follow the rules for manfiesting a psyhic power though, so yes I would say this is a psyhic power.

MarkyMark wrote:
To activate a force weapon you need to follow the rules for manfiesting a psyhic power though, so yes I would say this is a psyhic power.

I'd say that actually isn't true.
To activate a Force weapon you must:
Cause an unsaved wound
Spend a Warp Charge
Take a psychic test.

To use a Psychic Power you must:
Spend a Warp Charge.
Declare a Target.
Take the test.
Resolve DtW.
Resolve power.

They're similar (because Force doesn't require a target nor allow DtW) but since Force spells out its process specifically and is also listed separately when discussing Warp Charges I would say it's not a psychic power.

This was finished in the first page.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Under 'Warp Charge' (pg. 66): 'Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or. . .'

If a Force Weapon is a Psychic Power, then why is activating a Force Weapon a different way to expend a Warp Charge than a Psychic Power?

rigeld2 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
To activate a force weapon you need to follow the rules for manfiesting a psyhic power though, so yes I would say this is a psyhic power.

I'd say that actually isn't true.
To activate a Force weapon you must:
Cause an unsaved wound
Spend a Warp Charge
Take a psychic test.

To use a Psychic Power you must:
Spend a Warp Charge.
Declare a Target.
Take the test.
Resolve DtW.
Resolve power.

They're similar (because Force doesn't require a target nor allow DtW) but since Force spells out its process specifically and is also listed separately when discussing Warp Charges I would say it's not a psychic power.

They are the same, it doesnt matter what gets you there but you are still there so lets ignore cause a unsaved wound (if not then the "Manifesting psyhic powers" would have in the shooting phase/start of turn etc.

To use a force weapon

Expand a warp charge,

Declare a target (if the power requires a target)

Take psyhic test

Deny the witch (if it targets a enemy)

Resolve

So the two you are quoting in the second paragraph but not the first, acutally say more then just what you have written, if it requires a target nope it does not so lets take that out, if it targets a enemy, nope lets take that out and voila, you are left with what you wrote the first paragraph.

Sounds like one to me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quark wrote:
This was finished in the first page.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Under 'Warp Charge' (pg. 66): 'Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or. . .'

If a Force Weapon is a Psychic Power, then why is activating a Force Weapon a different way to expend a Warp Charge than a Psychic Power?

So if I cast a blessing on my psyker, I roll psyhic test and resolve. If i want to acitvate a force weapon I roll psyhic test and resolve. Its hardly different.

And yet the book lists them as two separate entities. Why are you ignoring that sentence?

MarkyMark wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
To activate a force weapon you need to follow the rules for manfiesting a psyhic power though, so yes I would say this is a psyhic power.

I'd say that actually isn't true.
To activate a Force weapon you must:
Cause an unsaved wound
Spend a Warp Charge
Take a psychic test.

To use a Psychic Power you must:
Spend a Warp Charge.
Declare a Target.
Take the test.
Resolve DtW.
Resolve power.

They're similar (because Force doesn't require a target nor allow DtW) but since Force spells out its process specifically and is also listed separately when discussing Warp Charges I would say it's not a psychic power.

They are the same, it doesnt matter what gets you there but you are still there so lets ignore cause a unsaved wound (if not then the "Manifesting psyhic powers" would have in the shooting phase/start of turn etc.

To use a force weapon

Expand a warp charge,

Declare a target (if the power requires a target)

Take psyhic test

Deny the witch (if it targets a enemy)

Resolve

So the two you are quoting in the second paragraph but not the first, acutally say more then just what you have written, if it requires a target nope it does not so lets take that out, if it targets a enemy, nope lets take that out and voila, you are left with what you wrote the first paragraph.

Sounds like one to me.

So ... why did they spell it our under Force? Maybe it's because Force isn't a psychic power and, without the Force ability telling you how, you have no way of actually activating the weapon.
Page 67 is referenced only for what a psychic test is. Assuming it means more than that is simply incorrect.

Quark wrote:
This was finished in the first page.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Under 'Warp Charge' (pg. 66): 'Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or. . .'

If a Force Weapon is a Psychic Power, then why is activating a Force Weapon a different way to expend a Warp Charge than a Psychic Power?

So if I cast a blessing on my psyker, I roll psyhic test and resolve. If i want to acitvate a force weapon I roll psyhic test and resolve. Its hardly different.

Except the BRB classified them as different. You're ignoring that. Stop doing so please.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 67 is referenced only for what a psychic test is.

And what is a Psychic test?

If you are following the rules for a psychic power, then you are casting a psychic power. This is because "If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" (67) but "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" (67)

The test they are talking about is the psychic test you take with a force weapon.

If the psychic test is passed then the Force power is manifested successfully and can be resolved.

So if we are ignoring the section on manifesting psyhic powers, do we ignore perils of the warp when using force weapons?


Might be me being dense, where is the rule for activating the force weapon?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 67 is referenced only for what a psychic test is.

And what is a Psychic test?

If you are following the rules for a psychic power, then you are casting a psychic power. This is because "If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" (67) but "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" (67)

The test they are talking about is the psychic test you take with a force weapon.

If the psychic test is passed then the Force power is manifested successfully and can be resolved.

Actually no - the Force power dictates what happens on a pass or fail.
And the bolded is absolutely false and irrelevant. I'm not following the rules for a psychic power, I'm rolling a psychic test. The two are not intertwined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
So if we are ignoring the section on manifesting psyhic powers, do we ignore perils of the warp when using force weapons?

No, because Perils is listed under Psychic Tests - which we're told we must take one of.

Might be me being dense, where is the rule for activating the force weapon?

Under Force.

Doh! yes just remembered. If we dont follow the Manifesting a psyhic power rule, why would the BRB state "DTW rolls cannot be taken against force weapons", if its clearly not a psyhic power?.

Also taking a psyhic test refers to page 67, which references powers quite a bit in the paragraph

MarkyMark wrote:
Doh! yes just remembered. If we dont follow the Manifesting a psyhic power rule, why would the BRB state "DTW rolls cannot be taken against force weapons", if its clearly not a psyhic power?.

To clarify for the confused (like yourself)

Also taking a psyhic test refers to page 67, which references powers quite a bit in the paragraph

Not for anything relevant. It tells you what happens with a power when the test is passed or failed. You can safely ignore that, however, since Force isn't a power.
So what happens when the test passes or fails? Oh, they included that in the Force rule.

I don't generate a force weapon by rolling a damned dice on a table or choosing a Primaris force weapon. Psychic powers are generated. There are a bunch of special tables that say what's a pyschic power and what isn't in the back of the BRB, as well as several codices. Taking the same test doesn't mean things are the same.

I'd say so. After all, activating a Force Weapon requires you to pass a PSYCHIC test, and also requires you to expend a point of Warp Charge.

But, like the OP points out, I highly doubt this issue will become a commonplace one...

Also, Force is a USR. Not a power.

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd say so. After all, activating a Force Weapon requires you to pass a PSYCHIC test, and also requires you to expend a point of Warp Charge.

But, like the OP points out, I highly doubt this issue will become a commonplace one...

And the spending of a warp charge is explicitly not for a psychic power.
And psychic tests are not restricted to psychic powers - they're just psychic tests.

While I was inclined to agree that a Force Weapon is not a psychic power, I don't think the argument is clear-cut either way. The problem with it being a psychic power is that it is separated from powers in multiple places, already listed here. However, the problem with it not being a psychic power comes from Perils of the Warp. The last line of Perils states "Note that a Psyker who incurs Perils or the Warp on a roll of double 1 still uses his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." The Force USR doesn't specify what happens if the test is passed on double ones and the model dies. So if Force is not a power, there is a hole in the rules for what happens if the activation kills the Psyker. I think it's an area where there is no RAW, only Zuul.. I mean RAI.

kaisshau wrote:
While I was inclined to agree that a Force Weapon is not a psychic power, I don't think the argument is clear-cut either way. The problem with it being a psychic power is that it is separated from powers in multiple places, already listed here. However, the problem with it not being a psychic power comes from Perils of the Warp. The last line of Perils states "Note that a Psyker who incurs Perils or the Warp on a roll of double 1 still uses his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." The Force USR doesn't specify what happens if the test is passed on double ones and the model dies. So if Force is not a power, there is a hole in the rules for what happens if the activation kills the Psyker. I think it's an area where there is no RAW, only Zuul.. I mean RAI.

Honestly, the perils shouldn't have to deal with casting the power at all. RAW it is saying what you were trying to use still works, but force weapons and powers are different for casting, same rules to cast, but a force weapon doesn't fall under the power category. Only things that count as powers are what you roll for at the start of the turn. I suppose this could justly mean if you perils on a force weapon check it doesnt work. But in tourney and friendly play i would let the force weapon activate on perils, and already avoids the power condition so it is legit.

You have a problem there though. The model has been removed from the table so its special rules don't work anymore, but it passed the psychic test so the Force Weapon should activate. It's a paradox, and the game breaks.

Not really, since you only roll for Force once unsaved wounds have been dealt. Upon success, those wounds cause Instant Death; whether the psyker is alive to see it happen or not is irrelevant, the wounds have already been dealt.

Use of the FORCE USR is not listed as a psychic power when the list of psychic powers is presented and the FORCE USR does not say that it is a psychic power. So, there is no RAW that it is a psychic power. There is no explicit statement of it being a psychic power.