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So, I made a terrible call last night in a game, and cast Death Mission on Eldrad. Do not do this. While hilarious, you will likely regret it.

He did kill a bloodthirster, using his force weapon. This raised a question. Death Mission states that once it is cast on a character, he cannot cast another psychic power. Does the activation of a force weapon count as a psychic power? The BRB states that it requires a psychic test, but no mention of the word 'power' is used. And force weapons are not mentioned in the 'Psychic Powers' part of the BRB.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Yes, the activation of a force weapon is a psychic power.

Looking at psychic powers we see the same process as what is used for a Force Weapon.

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test," P. 67

Talking about Psychic powers: "If the [Psychic] test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" P.67

Force requires a Psychic test...

I don't know enough about death mission to be honest but I can focus on this from a rule lawyering point of view to get to the answer: Force weapons activate.

The biggest thing there is the fact the force weapon ability has it's own limitations before it can be evoked. Should you meet these requirements, no additional ones exist to limit you, then you can evoke force. With what little I know of the situation, I do not see any reason why those limitations can not be met.

Nowhere, that I can see, does the BRB explicitly state that activating a force weapon is, or counts as, a Psychic Power.

Simply saying that: 'Psychic Powers require a Psychic Test, therefore everything that requires a Psychic Test is a Psychic Power' is faulty logic.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Nowhere, that I can see, does the BRB explicitly state that activating a force weapon is, or counts as, a Psychic Power.

Simply saying that: 'Psychic Powers require a Psychic Test, therefore everything that requires a Psychic Test is a Psychic Power' is faulty logic.

So, without referencing the Psychic powers section, how does one activate a Force Weapon?

(Hint: one does not, as you are required to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test...).

In fact the Force USR even refers you to page 67 where it tells you how to manifest a Psychic Power...

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." P. 37

Following the same procedures doesn't make things the same. Similar, especially in this case, but not the same. Activating Force was explicitly a Psychic Power in the last few editions, but that is no longer the case.

Not to mention that in previous editions the rules explicitly stated that force weapons were infact a psycic power

Interesting.

I have no experience in previous editions, so this is all new to me.

The consensus seems to be that it is not a Psychic Power.

A psychic test is taken to cast a power, or it is taken to activate a force weapon. The psychic test is taken for one of the two purposes, but they are not the same.

Force specifically calls the test for the Force USR a Psychic test.

"The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" P.67

So failing a Psychic test means the psychic power fails. Is it only a psychic power if you fail the test?

Wait, no "Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll, it [the psychic power] is now resolved."P.67

Force is a psychic power.

I still don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere that activating a Force Weapon is a Psychic Power.

Given GW's propensity for ambiguous language (remember the 'boltgun' debate?), 'psychic power' under the 'Pychic Test' section could be referring to power in the more generic sense rather than the rules term 'Psychic Power'. In fact, elsewhere in the Psyker section any reference to an actual rule (e.g. Deny the Witch) is capitalised.

Also, under 'Warp Charge' it states: Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force Weapons or. . .'
Note that fuelling psychic powers and activating Force weapons are listed as separate circumstances.

At least it should be discussed before a battle if it could be an issue.

Edit: Bear in mind that I am not actually trying to make the argument that activation is definitely NOT a Psychic Power, merely that it is not possible to say that it definitely IS.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force specifically calls the test for the Force USR a Psychic test.

"The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" P.67

This can be reconstructed around other examples to point out the flaw in this argument...
Certain psychic powers call for a Leadership test to be taken.
The Morale section tells us you must take a Leadership test and if the test is failed, the Morale test is failed.
This does not make those psychic powers Morale tests.

So DeathReaper, can we use Deny the Witch to nullify Force Weapon activations?

 Crimson wrote:
So DeathReaper, can we use Deny the Witch to nullify Force Weapon activations?

I don't know, can you Deny the Witch against a Blessing? Neither Force nor a Blessing target an opponent's unit?

I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

 Super Ready wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force specifically calls the test for the Force USR a Psychic test.

"The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" P.67

This can be reconstructed around other examples to point out the flaw in this argument...
Certain psychic powers call for a Leadership test to be taken.
The Morale section tells us you must take a Leadership test and if the test is failed, the Morale test is failed.
This does not make those psychic powers Morale tests.

Which does not matter as "A Psychic test is a Leadership test," P.67 That is why some of the older codexes call it a LD check and not a Psychic test, the terms are interchangeable when talking about Psychic powers.

No flaw in the argument. A Morale test and a Psychic test are both different kinds of LD tests.

 Crimson wrote:
So DeathReaper, can we use Deny the Witch to nullify Force Weapon activations?

No, because the rules specifically say you cannot (and it does not target an enemy unit).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which does not matter as "A Psychic test is a Leadership test," P.67 That is why some of the older codexes call it a LD check and not a Psychic test, the terms are interchangeable when talking about Psychic powers.

No flaw in the argument. A Morale test and a Psychic test are both different kinds of LD tests.

I'm not sure you've caught the main point of what I put. Perhaps using psychic powers was a bad example. My point was that Morale tests are by their nature Leadership tests - this does not mean a failed Leadership test means the reason for the check had anything to do with Morale.
In the same vein, just because a force weapon uses a psychic test, does not mean that it is a psychic power.

Some abilities use Leadership tests. Morale tests use Leadership tests as well. A and B both use C.
Psychic powers use psychic tests. Force weapons use psychic tests as well. Again A and B both use C, but this does not mean A=B.
Hopefully that makes the comparison clearer.

 Super Ready wrote:
just because a force weapon uses a psychic test, does not mean that it is a psychic power.

Some abilities use Leadership tests. Morale tests use Leadership tests as well. A and B both use C.
Psychic powers use psychic tests. Force weapons use psychic tests as well. Again A and B both use C, but this does not mean A=B.
Hopefully that makes the comparison clearer.

The underlined is incorrect, for reasons given on Page 67.

Anything that has a psyker expend a warp charge and make a Psychic test is a Psychic power as per Page 67.

In this case, if you are following the rules for a psychic power, then you are casting a psychic power. This is because "If the test is failed, the psychic power fails" (67) but "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved" (67)

So either it is a Psychic power, or Force does nothing as Psychic tests are only used to make a psychic power fail, or manifest successfully.

I don't see how you can claim that Force isn't a psychic power when the rule says, "expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test (see page 67)." That seems to be the very definition of a psychic power.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I don't see how you can claim that Force isn't a psychic power when the rule says, "expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test (see page 67)." That seems to be the very definition of a psychic power.

Exactly, it even points to the rules for casting Psychic powers.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

I think this pretty much nails it as proof that a FW is not a power. All hail this comment!

Lets look at this another way. If using a force weapon is a psychic power, does that mean it can be resisted by deny the witch, or negated by psychic hoods or rune weapons?

 Sothas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

I think this pretty much nails it as proof that a FW is not a power. All hail this comment!

A models mastery level has nothing to do with having a weapon with the Force property. The weapon bestows the force psychic power onto the psyker holding it.

His logic is flawed as you do not choose the force psychic power, it is already included within the psykers equipment.

Durandal wrote:
Lets look at this another way. If using a force weapon is a psychic power, does that mean it can be resisted by deny the witch, or negated by psychic hoods or rune weapons?

1) it is not something that targets an enemy unit so DTW and Hoods have no bearing on it.

2) Rune weapons work as normal.

 Sothas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

I think this pretty much nails it as proof that a FW is not a power. All hail this comment!

That comment is nonsense.
Imperial Guard Psykers are Mastery Level 1 with 2 Powers and a Force Weapon.

If you use a warp charge, doesnt that count as a power?

The FW is not the power. "Force" is.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Sothas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

I think this pretty much nails it as proof that a FW is not a power. All hail this comment!

That comment is nonsense.
Imperial Guard Psykers are Mastery Level 1 with 2 Powers and a Force Weapon.

That's because you are using a 5th edition codex. Read the BRB, it clearly states a psyker can only have as many powers as ML. Only older edition psykers get 2 powers at level 1. Every 6th Edition army is limited to 1 per level. Once IG gets it's 6th edition treatment, that level 1 psyker will be down to 1 power like all the others.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Sothas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I disagree that Force Weapon activation is a psychic power, simply because the BRB states you get a number of powers equal to the model's mastery level. Since you may take a number of powers equal to your ML and still be able to use a Force Weapon, that by default means activation is NOT considered a psychic power. Otherwise, ML 1 psykers with a Force Weapon would never be able to take a power.

Additionally, Space Wolves would be able to dispell a Force Weapon if it truly was a power and I don't recall ever playing it that way.

I think this pretty much nails it as proof that a FW is not a power. All hail this comment!

A models mastery level has nothing to do with having a weapon with the Force property. The weapon bestows the force psychic power onto the psyker holding it.

His logic is flawed as you do not choose the force psychic power, it is already included within the psykers equipment.

Nowhere in the book does it list Force Weapon Activation as a power, its not listed on the big ol' list of psychic powers, nor is listed as any of the specific types of powers (blessing, malediction, etc), it's just a weapon property, nothing more. Just because something functions LIKE something else, doesn't make it the SAME.

The fact that 6th edition psykers are still equipped with force weapons actually supports the claim that activating it is NOT a power, seeing as how, again, the BRB clearly states one power per ML.

If its a psychic power, then what classification is it? Its not witchfire, malediction, blessing, focused witchfire, beam, or nova. In order for it to be considered a psychic power, wouldn't it be listed in the actual TYPES of powers?

Page 66: Each Psyker knows one or more psychic powers, as detailed in their codex.

Is Force detailed in any codex as a psychic power? Yes, this argument won't hold much water...

Page 66: Where it is specifically stated, however, it is entirely possible for a model to use more psychic powers each turn than it actually knows. This is because a Psyker can sometimes activate certain items of wargear or other effects
that, while not powers, take a toll of his psychic energy.

And here the rulebook states in two end-on-end following sentences that activating certain wargear is a psychic power that is actually not a psychic power.

Page 66, regarding Warp Charge: can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or unlock the might of ancient artefacts.

While one shouldn't read too much into a sentence like this, they do differentiate between a psychic power and a force weapon.

I have no doubt what GW will write if they ever DO manage to FAQ this, but at the same time I also highly doubt GW ever will FAQ this.

And if you really want to play the tiny devil and go down on a linguistic level, you never manifest a Force USR, you activate it and you never follow the rules for manifesting psychic powers, either.

 Texanity wrote:
If you use a warp charge, doesnt that count as a power?

Not necessarily.

Under 'Warp Charge' (pg. 66): 'Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or. . .'

Fuelling psychic powers and activating Force weapons are listed as separate circumstances.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

 Texanity wrote:
If you use a warp charge, doesnt that count as a power?

Not necessarily.

Under 'Warp Charge' (pg. 66): 'Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weapons or. . .'

Fuelling psychic powers and activating Force weapons are listed as separate circumstances.

This right here pretty much puts the argument to bed. The BRB clearly makes a distinction between psychic powers and activating Force weapons, and it also kills the notion that using a Warp Charge=psychic power.