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I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling you do have an obligation to pay where you play, the only thing I take issue with is when people attempt to impose one on others.

I think most people end up settling on a mixture of online and in store purchases.

 Sigvatr wrote:

boyd wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Some gaming stores adopt the "pay to play" option, they charge you for using their space to play games. For example a store where I live charges players $5 every time they play at the store. Personally I would like it if they didn't charge anything and rather I bought something since at least I'm getting model out of the deal and they get paid full price for it. But to each their own, and its either that store or the tyrannical GW store which wont even let you play unless your army is 1000% GW....god forbid if you use 3rd party paint or your models will explode....eh sorry got off topic there

/rant.

Pay 5$ to play, shop online to balance it ou via savings on models

Exactly if you're not able to get at least 40% off of your GW fix you're getting a raw deal. Also who needs a FLGS in the US. You should be playing the game in your basement with your friends. The only time you should get out of the basement is when there is a tournament sponsored by some FLGS that is begging for you to buy something. You should laugh at them while you complain about their tournament not being up to your standards and then go online for sympathy that you lost. You didn't lose because someone was better, you lost because of an inept TO.

In all honesty, I would suggest doing what you're comfortable with. Contrary to popular belief, gaming space does not translate to more sales as the floor space can be used to sell another product and provide a new revenue stream that would make more than the incremental wargame sales, or they could allow that space to be used by M:TG players who tend to buy a higher margin product. Pack more of them in and they will sell more boxes of cards.

Not my point. My point is that if you force your customers to pay for playing, they might be more likely to keep buying online.

Its just sarcasm...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChocolateGork wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're looking at it backwards.

The gaming space that your store provides is nothing more than an incentive to get people to spend time in the store, in the hope that they will spend money while they are there.

You are under no obligation to pay for this service if no payment is asked for. The store needs to make it worth your while to spend money there.

If their providing gaming space balances out the prices, then by all means support them to whatever degree you deem appropriate. But if the prices they are charging don't seem like a fair exchange for the service offered, buying out of some perceived obligation isn't going to get that message across to the store.

I agree. And if your on the fence then it seems like they maybe aren't doing enough to make it worth your while


Automatically Appended Next Post:

boyd wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Some gaming stores adopt the "pay to play" option, they charge you for using their space to play games. For example a store where I live charges players $5 every time they play at the store. Personally I would like it if they didn't charge anything and rather I bought something since at least I'm getting model out of the deal and they get paid full price for it. But to each their own, and its either that store or the tyrannical GW store which wont even let you play unless your army is 1000% GW....god forbid if you use 3rd party paint or your models will explode....eh sorry got off topic there

/rant.

Pay 5$ to play, shop online to balance it ou via savings on models

Exactly if you're not able to get at least 40% off of your GW fix you're getting a raw deal. Also who needs a FLGS in the US. You should be playing the game in your basement with your friends. The only time you should get out of the basement is when there is a tournament sponsored by some FLGS that is begging for you to buy something. You should laugh at them while you complain about their tournament not being up to your standards and then go online for sympathy that you lost. You didn't lose because someone was better, you lost because of an inept TO.

In all honesty, I would suggest doing what you're comfortable with. Contrary to popular belief, gaming space does not translate to more sales as the floor space can be used to sell another product and provide a new revenue stream that would make more than the incremental wargame sales, or they could allow that space to be used by M:TG players who tend to buy a higher margin product. Pack more of them in and they will sell more boxes of cards.

Is magic a higher margin? But your right that they due to the nature of the game and the scene, they shift WAY more. I would be very surprised if a store could survive without a large contingent of CCG/TCG/LCG Players

The gross profit on a box of magic cards is higher than most miniatures. In addition, the cards tend to turn over much faster as they have a lower barrier of entry to get into the game. You only need a $10 starter box compared to ~ $50 - $100 for miniature wargames. Since each pack is random, you have to buy more packs to get what you want or just settle for buying a single. The games tend to take up less space as well - you can fit 2-3 times as many people in the same space.

A local store just ran a Magic Draft using the new modern masters limited release set with a $40 entrance fee. They got 24 players at the event. The players also bought other boosters, snack food and made other purchases.

They are a business in a capitalist system. Both your lgs and the online stores you order from. So do what your bank account and budget dictate, there are no other real factors involved, it's pure numbers and dollar signs.

 frozenwastes wrote:
A local store just ran a Magic Draft using the new modern masters limited release set with a $40 entrance fee. They got 24 players at the event. The players also bought other boosters, snack food and made other purchases.

And this is exactly what stores should be doing for miniatures games if they want to see an obvious return from their gaming space. If you're just going to have a bunch of tables in the hope that people will wander in and play on them, and then spend money while they are at it, you're nailing jelly to a tree. Organised events get (paying) bums in chairs.

For me at least, I have a newish FLGS that opened up last year. He's now doing factional GW at 20% off (ie, not paints, etc), which is still not enough for me to buy when put against overseas internet prices. His boardgames are also unfortunately about 20% more than internet prices from some very nice people interstate who have their own store who also sell online (that I've been buying from since before the local store had opened). I buy some stuff from him - stuff that I consider "close enough" in price to getting from the US/UK such as the occasional boardgame, the odd Reaper figure (or pile of them), my GW paints (a bunch of the new ones, not so many more recently because I have half what I need now.) And of course Spray Paints that can't be posted. He runs events and tournaments all the time, however, I don't participate in any of the events, since I'm out of the habit of gaming at the moment/an anti-social bastard/slowly working out my armies/concentrating on painting and videogames and posting here with my free/hobby time.

He knows I buy my GW from overseas, which I've been frank about from the moment I first set foot in the shop. It's nothing personal, it's because of GW's prices, and he's aware of that. When the DAs came out, we had a friendly argument about the difference between me buying 2 boxes of termies and 2 of the ravenwing from overseas, vs paying $10 more per box from his store. He saw it as a minor thing "it's only ten bucks" while I view it as "when I'm buying 4 of them, it's forty bucks, which is another box." I said, when the prices are "close enough" (by my own reckoning) then I'll buy GW from him. With the prices of the new Eldar stuff being much closer to US prices, when I get the cash together (probably in a month), I'll go in and buy 2 boxes of the new Wraithguard and 2 Wraithlords from him, because some of the new GW prices are actually close enough.

Having said all that, if I actually played games there, or hung out regularly, I'd buy much much more from him. As it is, I stop past occasionally, buying sprays, some paint and smaller stuff I don't need and things that are "close enough" to support him. Though this has added up into $50-150+ quite a few times in the past - so I'm not just talking about $5.

But look at it like this. Is there stuff in the local store that's priced competitively that you want? If so, when you have $200 to spend, maybe get $150 of GW stuff from the US and spend the $50 you "saved" in the local store.

Here's another consideration: Your Pile

If folks bought smaller amounts from their FGS, they could likely actually build and paint much/all of their armies and then add to them at a reasonable pace.

Keep your pile under control. Keep the lights on in your gaming venue. Keep your individual purchases small.

Just another approach.

Pay where you play. Full stop. Do you use their store? Then buy from there. I don't feel the need to elaborate or listen to any excuses, otherwise.

I support 2 local stores to me, and 2 different online store. I ONLY play at home with close friends, or at their homes.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hey guys,

I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. I frequently travel between my home country and the US (studying there), but most of the time I'm free to play 40k is back home over the breaks. However, the cost of GW products here is abyssmally high, like Aussie-price high. The Wraithknight here, for example, is 50 USD above GW retail (and this is the average price range for 40k at home). Hassle of bringing them back aside, I can easily get boxed sets from the US at 20% off from places like The Warstore rather than paying the price premium. However, my FLGS provides a community, painting stations, and gaming tables without any membership fee, open to everyone, so they rely on their in-store sales to survive. From a business perspective, gaming and painting table space is shelf space that they're not using, so this is essentially something that they take on as a loss for themselves. Right now I'm torn between wanting to save money for myself (especially when I'm doing conversion work and bashing up 2 to 3 good kits to make something) and supporting the store so it can stay open. As a result, I buy some things in the US, and some things back home.

At what point in time does it just become unreasonable for myself to spend a huge premium just to support my FLGS, and do you guys feel that I should be completely unscrupulous and just buy everything from the US? Should I buy more from my FLGS? Or should I just keep doing what I'm doing of doing half-and-half?

Lol, as someone in SG,I know how you feel. But look at it this way, if you don't support the local stores, you're not going to find any place to buy from anytime soon.

Btw, where do you play? BB or PI or GR or GG?

Gah. So much of this boils down to a moral decision and my own guilty conscience. I hate myself sometimes.

Sining wrote:

Lol, as someone in SG,I know how you feel. But look at it this way, if you don't support the local stores, you're not going to find any place to buy from anytime soon.

Btw, where do you play? BB or PI or GR or GG?

For the sake of internet anonymity (what little there is) and because I'm full well-aware of the local political drama that's going on, I will choose to not disclose my identity and gaming location. Sorry.

What local political drama have I been missing out on?? Other than the usual 'hey, we're all competitors' kind of thing. I play at GG and GR myself.

Also, never really asked for your identity either

 R3con wrote:
Remember most non direct items are bought by your store at a 60% discount from GWS. So asking a store to give you 20% off still leaves them with a 40% markup.

This is wrong, its 45%.

Since I typically do not buy much anymore, when I do I buy from my local store. I tend to spread it around a lot and not buy all at one place.

Why do I do this, because I know that the FLGS is the prime gateway of getting more nerds (I mean people) into games I want to play. If these venues flounder I am hurting myself and reducing my own player base.

Haha this is interesting, I'm from the OP's country as well. If you get discounts from ur local store, it's actually priced reasonably still, though you can't ever compete with internet wholesalers. Our community is very small as a whole, so while i travel often and can buy overseas, I rather support our meagre but growing community. I don't want have a day where I actually wonder if I have a people or place to play with.

And I play at GR.

Buy everything from the states discounters. GW prices are completely ridiculous.

They gouge you once with retail prices and then try to gouge you again just for not living in the states.

If the shop was smart they would just charge a fee for playing on the tables. i see nothing at all wrong with that. it would tidy it all up nicely, you dont feel like a dick for not buying anything because you're still paying a bit, the store gets some money and we can all axe this pay where you play BS.

 marv335 wrote:
I stand by the mantra "Pay where you Play".

I agree... IF your store is earning that mantra. Unfortunately, the store I most frequently attend gets in little stock, and is very unreliable in ordering items that are not in stock. Thus, often when I want to support local stores, I have to buy items at OTHER local stores than the one I frequent most. It's very frustrating, and has been brought up to the store owners a number of times. But there's such a thing as an UFLGS, too...

So, to me it's not black and white. Also, kickstarter has created a means to pay game creators almost directly, cutting out the middle men and creating a whole new dynamic for supporting the creation of new games. But at the same time, things like Zombicide that would've made a killing for FLGS shops, end up not selling well. So, it's an interesting dynamic these days, to me.

One thing my store did recently was offer a 10% off card that people could purchase for $10 if they were a regular. That was a pretty good incentive... now if they would just stock some game systems decently so I could actually make use of it

 Enigwolf wrote:
Gah. So much of this boils down to a moral decision and my own guilty conscience. I hate myself sometimes.

I think you have answered your own question there..

And don't berate yourself for having a moral standard (regardless of whether other people go by the same code or not) and being principled with how you behave! It's a nice character element I think, and perhaps ultimately the only thing we have..

/Pacific's life advice for the day

Is there an alternative product you can get through your local store for a reasonable price? For example, I got Saga and some boxes of plastic vikings and dark age warriors made by Gripping Beast and the cost per miniature was way, way less than GW and the store didn't have to charge me the arbitrary "screw-Canada" pricing.

The miniatures are great and the game play is definitely better than any of GW's current offerings. Perhaps there's an analogous option for your local store to supply you with?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Is there an alternative product you can get through your local store for a reasonable price? For example, I got Saga and some boxes of plastic vikings and dark age warriors made by Gripping Beast and the cost per miniature was way, way less than GW and the store didn't have to charge me the arbitrary "screw-Canada" pricing.

The miniatures are great and the game play is definitely better than any of GW's current offerings. Perhaps there's an analogous option for your local store to supply you with?

I thought about it before, honestly, but import taxes and rent at home are so high that everything always comes out to be more expensive regardless of whether they're the distributor or taking from another distributor.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Gah. So much of this boils down to a moral decision and my own guilty conscience. I hate myself sometimes.

I was going to say, I like to Pay Where I Play - but I have a great game store that I've frequented for the last 15 years, long before I got into 40k. Plus I live in the US where the prices are more-or-less reasonable. So the decision is easy for me. I bought lots of stuff from the store, but I also buy some stuff over the internet. Whatever is easiest at the time.

But if you feel that this is a moral dilemma, that you're valuing money over your own internal sense of well being, well, that's another thing - and the few dollars you'll save on models here or there isn't worth the mental gymnastics you'll go through. Unless you're hurting for food money (in which, WTF are you doing playing 40k in the first place?) then do the thing that is line with your personal values, money be damned.

 Pacific wrote:


And don't berate yourself for having a moral standard (regardless of whether other people go by the same code or not) and being principled with how you behave! It's a nice character element I think, and perhaps ultimately the only thing we have..

/Pacific's life advice for the day

Good advice! And buying some things from the US, and some back home... seems entirely reasonable.

There's an interesting game called Prisoner's Dilemma; google it, for some anthopologists, economists and others use it to model behaviour that concerns how often we should help the group (ie the FLGS) and how often we should look after ourselves (ie buy from discounters). The optimum position, for good outcomes, is often a combination of both.