Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Devilfish might cost more than a Rhino, but at least it's playable, unlike said Rhino.

People just don't know how to deal with tau yet, like they diddn't know how to deal with grey knights, or necrons, or helldrakes. Give it time.

Same goes even more so for eldar. They got tonnes better than what they were, but what they were, was 4th edition, ancient codex's. I'd say they are just as balanced as the first 3 of 6th edition, except for tau having an abundance of anti-flyer, which generally, is a good thing, as that one aspect they have, is very helpfull in dealing with the meta issues that 6th has had so far (Necron bakery, triple helldrakes, vendettaspam, and such)

I expect Codex SM to be in line with the dark angels, trading scoring terminators, and the various buff's DA get (Stubborn, inner circle, unique wargear like the salvobanner) for more flexibility in the form of characters that change the way the army works, like last time.

Honestly, all I see them doing is scaling down the points cost of the standard SM units, and adding in some fancy new unit (Probably a giant megazord like tau and eldar )

Codex space marines isn't in a bad place because the rules are bad. It's in a bad place because it does the same as the other marine books, but costs more points to do it (With the obvious exception of black templars)

I hope, generally, they bundle templars back into the codex SM, but allow them to keep what made them unique, through a character, in the way whitescars do. Otherwise templars will just drift lower and lower to the bottom of the barrel of codex's, and honestly, I can't ever think of someone saying to me "You know what would be really good? If they updated templars, can't wait for that!" And with little demand, comes little updates.

You know what would be really good? If they update Codex: Black Templars!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Devilfish might cost more than a Rhino, but at least it's playable, unlike said Rhino.

Really? A Rhino costs 35 points, keeps the unit inside safe from small-arms fire and will get you 18'' ahead on turn one. It's perfectly useful for the price. Just remember to bring more than one, and a few other more dangerous vehicles so the enemy has to think about what to take out first. For example, when playing my SoB people always gun for the exorcists first - if they don't they'll lose something important within d6 shots.

Things I want to see for the new Codex:

All of their HQs get a price drop. (Librarians to 65pts, Chaplains to 80~, Captains to 80, Chapter Masters to 90 - 100, Master of the Forge to 80.)

Captains get the ability to make Jump Pack Assault Marines / Terminators scoring units (not troops). The reason I say 'not troops' is because that's the Blood Angels/Dark Angels 'shtick'. I suppose Codex: Marines get not-Ravenwing...

Add in a Master of Sanctity chaplain, have it at 100pts, pretty much just a buffed Chaplain. +1 W, +1 BS, +1 A. All types of chaplain gain Zealotry over the "Uphold the Honor of the Chapter" rule type thing.

Even though I don't want to see this, I expect we are going to lose Null Zone, and thus the reason to take a Librarian all the time. It makes me sad, but happy that I'll get to take something new, at the same time.

I'd like to see Tactical Marines drop to 15pts/ Model, 10pt upgrade for Sergeants to Veteran Sergeants. I'm torn on whether to keep our weapon prices they are now, or switch them back. It really depends on how much GW values Grim Resolve over Combat Tactics.

Scouts will probably stay the same amount of points, but Telion gets a price drop (maybe a 25~ point upgrade?). Give the option to give Landspeeder Storms as a Dedicated Transport.

Pretty much everything in the Elites section stay the same. Venerable Dreadnoughts get rolled up into normal Dreadnoughts as an upgrade, Ironclads might get a slight points drop, and the baseline Dreadnought will be 100pts to fall in line with Helbrutes / DA Dreadnoughts.

Fast Attack, I'd like to see Typhoon Launchers / Assault Cannons on speeders to get a bit cheaper. maybe similiar to Dark Angels points cost. (Though, they didn't get it last codex, so, who knows). Assault Marines to get a price drop, Vanguard Veterans to get a points drop, Bikes / Attack Bikes to get a points drop.

Heavy Support, I imagine it'd be mostly the same as the Dark Angels codex. Thunderfire Cannons might go up slightly in points to 125 pts each, since they are pretty ridiculously good for their current points cost. Vindicators will go up, Predator will go down, Devastators go down, Whirlwinds go down. Land Raiders will stay the same, except losing transport capacity to fall in line with every other Codex. (the same as our Drop Pods)

I'd like to see our Special Characters to get a price drop, especially ones like Shrike and Khan. Calgar coming with his Terminator Armour baseline for 250pts, and having the option to switch it to Artificer Armor sans the Locator Beacon for free. Tigirius gets a *large* points drop, Cassius stays the same but gains a Master of Sanctity stat line. Chronus goes down in points, Lysander stays the same (or even goes up, as he is now, he's pretty damn beastly. It probably depends on how Calgar changes.) Sicarius could also use a points drop.

So, for the TLDR: Points drops almost across the board, except for two units.

Lumipon wrote:
^ Agreed.

But C: SM on the other hand are a "jack-of-all-trades" kind of an army. They are cheap and durable and can do pretty much anything you need them to do, so it's unlikely they would receive huge game changing rules like DWA or battle Focus. Most likely they will gain a reliable access to Skyfire and interceptor weapons and the obligatory Smurf Knight.

I have to disagree with some of what you said here. Yes, C:SM are a "jack-of-all-trades" kind of army, and pretty much always have been, BUT they are not cheap, and their vaunted durability is becoming less and less of a factor. And in theory, they can do anything you want, but the reality is, almost all of it is very mediocre. And given that Marines in general are supposed to be the best the IoM has to offer, you'd think they would pack a bit more of a punch.

However, I seriously hope that punch doesn't come in the form of a Smurf Knight. Its so out of character its not even funny. At the same time, I don't think I want yet another rhino or landraider variant. I still would like to see some additional options for the TFC chasis, maybe something with a bit more hitting power. This would also allow us to get plastic artillery kits instead of getting a 2nd mortgage to buy a single battery.

I find the idea of C:SM marines being "mediocre" to be a hard sell.

Spetulhu wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Devilfish might cost more than a Rhino, but at least it's playable, unlike said Rhino.

Really? A Rhino costs 35 points, keeps the unit inside safe from small-arms fire and will get you 18'' ahead on turn one. It's perfectly useful for the price. Just remember to bring more than one, and a few other more dangerous vehicles so the enemy has to think about what to take out first. For example, when playing my SoB people always gun for the exorcists first - if they don't they'll lose something important within d6 shots.

Agreed, Rhinos are still great. I'm actually glad I didn't spring for 5 Drop Pods for my Wolves because between the CSM and Eldar Codices I'm seeing a lot of use for a bunker.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Devilfish might cost more than a Rhino, but at least it's playable, unlike said Rhino.

Really? A Rhino costs 35 points, keeps the unit inside safe from small-arms fire and will get you 18'' ahead on turn one. It's perfectly useful for the price. Just remember to bring more than one, and a few other more dangerous vehicles so the enemy has to think about what to take out first. For example, when playing my SoB people always gun for the exorcists first - if they don't they'll lose something important within d6 shots.

Agreed, Rhinos are still great. I'm actually glad I didn't spring for 5 Drop Pods for my Wolves because between the CSM and Eldar Codices I'm seeing a lot of use for a bunker.

Rhinos aren't bad....but they ARE a huge liability in giving up First Blood though. With the nerfs to assaulting from a stationary/destroyed transport, they took a big hit in the "delivering unit into assault position" category as well.

1. I would be pleased if Kantor moved SGV to troops.

2. Not sure what to do with / about rhino's,they seem to have a " first blood " curse on them at the moment.

3. I do not see C:SM getting a large base MC " smurfknight " thing,DA did not,so how would it fit into the new SM codex is beyond me and it would be wrong if they tried to get one in.

4. I also do not see them losing combat tactics,just IC's that replace it with stubborn / fearless or some re-working of chapter tactics for SC's.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Lobukia:
Sadly, those things aren't exactly the special features of the CSM codex. So to say. Like, you can bring... uhm... Noise Marines with Blastmasters... Baledrakes... and that's all (and no Barrage weapons for you!). And the usual Riptides + Missilesides combo will eat these for breakfast. Yes, you can ally up with IG, but if you have to bring units from a different codex, then maybe you have problems.

You mean stuff like Defilers, Brand on a Juggerlord, combi-flamers on outflanking/DS chaos termies, Oblits, flamers on vehicles, and yes, Noise Marines and Baledrakes... I dunno 6 options that wreck Tau face, should be enough for most to find 2 or 3 that they like/own/want to run. Just send cultists up the middle and have them get in FW range at the same time your other stuff does. 30 cultists in the ultimate 1 turn bubble wrap (and cheap enough that any list can run it).

 Lobukia wrote:

You mean stuff like Defilers, Brand on a Juggerlord, combi-flamers on outflanking/DS chaos termies, Oblits, flamers on vehicles, and yes, Noise Marines and Baledrakes... I dunno 6 options that wreck Tau face, should be enough for most to find 2 or 3 that they like/own/want to run. Just send cultists up the middle and have them get in FW range at the same time your other stuff does. 30 cultists in the ultimate 1 turn bubble wrap (and cheap enough that any list can run it).

Why? Defilers are not Barrage and with their AV12, they will be hard-countered by ~60% of the Tau army. The Brand and the Flamers will just play the Tau's game: to get up close so they can triple-tap with their pulse rifles and use their bazillion+1 short-ranged special weapons. Even the blastmaster is a questionable option, as its range of 36" is scratching the higher end of the Tau "danger zone". And why should the cultists help? They can just, y'know, shoot right through them without problem...

And even if you finally get something to counter the FWs and the PFs... You will still have the 3 IA/TLFB/Stim/EWO Riptides to worry about. And we are still at 1500 points (with the Ethereal, 40 FWs, 3 Riptides, 21 PFs, 1 Sky Ray and an ADL)...

What the basic book just needs to do is represent Codex Astartes compliant chapters better. It's really always been an issue of implementation rather than not having rules for the other "major" chapters.

What Codex: Space Marines 6th Edition needs (which, of course means it won't get) is the ability to differentiate it from the other codex books. C:SM has always suffered from the fact that the other books were always Space Marines +1.

What differentiates the other chapters that received books (aside from DA)? Their specific fighting styles and gene seed defects/mutations. The Codex book should have flexible FOCs since that's exactly what the Codex Astartes was supposed to be. A comprehensive guide to warfare with thousands of examples and treatises.

So, give the armies the ability to represent different "Formations". Give Bikes, and Jump Packs back to the Command Squad, and allow those choices to make the types of "Troops" selections change to adjust. Then you don't need to take some ridiculous special character to play White Scars or Raven Guard, you just make the command selections you want, and then built your list.

I know that Codex: Space Marines is really just a marketing re-name for Codex: Ultramarines, but even the Ultramarines have a bike equipped Reserve Company. In fact, nothing the other chapters do is outside what the Ultramarines do (or Codex Chapters in general). Others may just be more predisposed to it.

As long as they put thought into how the FOCs are structured, it should remain relatively balanced, and finally provide the kind of force flexibility Codex Chapters should have, and avoid the pitfall of lacking the "+1" special rules the other books tend to get. After all, if you're telling us the Ultramarines are "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", the rules should at least give us an indication that is true, haha.

I'd like them to avoid anything like 4th Editions exploitable Chapter Traits, but at the same time show that the Codex Astartes is supposed to be all about flexibility and being able to fight any kind of battle. So let them do that.

AA option for missile launchers (they are "missiles" after all). Would give them flexibility and use over lascannons. The same option for Whirlwinds.

A facelift for the Dreadnought models would be cool. Maybe longer legs? And if the Marines need a "big robot", give them them rules for the Contemptor. It already exists, problem solved. I'd hate to see them invent some kind of new superdreadnought, or something else that previously didn't exist in the fluff. The Contemptor thing, however, is unlikely, because GW doesn't like "stealing" models from Forgeworld anymore.

I want to see Legionarres get good, I say give them AP3 bolters and lower their price a bit. Make them more then just marines in ghostly armor

CSM are fine, throw in 3 Baledrakes, as many oblitz as possible and call it a day.

I find most of my trouble coming up with CSM Troops, I have zero success with any of them, Idk why.

 Melissia wrote:
I find the idea of C:SM marines being "mediocre" to be a hard sell.

How many units outside of suicide drop-pod Sternguard and LR-riding Assault Termies are that good? Sure, their flyers are good, probably the best units in the army next to hamminators, and a couple of their special characters are good, but just about everything else is "meh". Not particularly good, not particularly bad, just kind of there, ie, the very definition of mediocre.

I'm not asking for the moon and stars, I'd just like to be able to field an army that doesn't induce a big yawn from both sides, has a few different builds that are effective, and more importantly, captures the essence of a Codex Astartes Space Marine chapter going to war. WIth the exception of CSM, I think GW has done a decent job at capturing the essence of each army, so I'm crossing my fingers they continue the trend.

As a side note, I do NOT want special characters dictating the chapter tactics and FOC. Why not make generic HQs that unlock different things. Since these are Codex chapters, how about something like this:

Captain of the 1st: one type of veteran squad (terminators, assault terminators, sternguard, vanguard) counts as troops
Captain of the 2nd-5th: No unlocks, but gets Orbital Bombardment and maybe some other special ability
Captain of the 6th: bikers count as troops
Captain of the 7th: landspeeders count as troops
Captain of the 8th: assault squads count as troops
Captain of the 9th: devestators count as troops
Captain of the 10th: tactical squads count as elites, entire army gains Infiltrate and Scout.

This is fluffy, can make for some very interesting armies, and would not require a named chapter master to show up for every small scale engagement. I'm sure we won't end up with something even close to this, but one can dream

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I'm not asking for the moon and stars, I'd just like to be able to field an army that doesn't induce a big yawn from both sides

If you wanted that, why play ANY of the Space Marines armies?

Jokes aside, I think you're underestimating a big portion of the codex here.

Captain of the 1st: one type of veteran squad (terminators, assault terminators, sternguard, vanguard) counts as troops
Captain of the 2nd-5th: No unlocks, but gets Orbital Bombardment and maybe some other special ability
Captain of the 6th: bikers count as troops
Captain of the 7th: landspeeders count as troops
Captain of the 8th: assault squads count as troops
Captain of the 9th: devestators count as troops
Captain of the 10th: tactical squads count as elites, entire army gains Infiltrate and Scout.

I'd only agree to this if all the C:SM chapters were rolled back into the dex, Chaos doesn't get a thing like this despite being even more varied!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Captain of the 1st: one type of veteran squad (terminators, assault terminators, sternguard, vanguard) counts as troops
Captain of the 2nd-5th: No unlocks, but gets Orbital Bombardment and maybe some other special ability
Captain of the 6th: bikers count as troops
Captain of the 7th: landspeeders count as troops
Captain of the 8th: assault squads count as troops
Captain of the 9th: devestators count as troops
Captain of the 10th: tactical squads count as elites, entire army gains Infiltrate and Scout.

I'd only agree to this if all the C:SM chapters were rolled back into the dex, Chaos doesn't get a thing like this despite being even more varied!

So because GW dropped the ball on CSM no one else can have nice stuff? Isn't that a bit petty?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Captain of the 1st: one type of veteran squad (terminators, assault terminators, sternguard, vanguard) counts as troops
Captain of the 2nd-5th: No unlocks, but gets Orbital Bombardment and maybe some other special ability
Captain of the 6th: bikers count as troops
Captain of the 7th: landspeeders count as troops
Captain of the 8th: assault squads count as troops
Captain of the 9th: devestators count as troops
Captain of the 10th: tactical squads count as elites, entire army gains Infiltrate and Scout.

I'd only agree to this if all the C:SM chapters were rolled back into the dex, Chaos doesn't get a thing like this despite being even more varied!

So because GW dropped the ball on CSM no one else can have nice stuff? Isn't that a bit petty?

Yes and Yes.

You can have an awesome flyer in return though however, we'll call it the Eagle Storm, and it causes H4 S7 AP2 hits that ignores cover.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Codex Space Marines is awesome and did great at adepticon with some allies.

The answer to all codex issues is in this sentence. 6th edition isn't new anymore but people still haven't realised well designed armies with allies are always stronger than well designed armies without them. I'm building a Chaos Space Marine army myself, and I'm assembling both IG and Necron allies (conversions to fit the Chaos theme visually). Tau allies would work decently too but in my opinion is the weakest of those 3. There's no way any of the pure CSM codex lists compare power wise. I find that the points spent in the troops section of the C:CSM are no way near as effective as points spent in FA and HS. That's where 2 squads of Necrons in Night Scythes, or an IG platoon steps in. A Wraith squad, an Annihilation Barge, a Vendetta or a Manticore doesn't hurt either, especially as you can still get 3 choices from the C:CSM. This way you create an army from two codices by using only the underpriced/overpowered units.

 AtoMaki wrote:

cowen70 wrote:

Once again YOUR experience isn't everyones. As I said perhaps he is having trouble adjusting and keeping pace with new codices but he might learn. Others clearly have.

Uhm... And what if you are wrong? Like, y'know, "YOUR experience isn't everyones" and stuff. For one, our C:N&B player tried out a bazillion different combinations, armies and tactics before he made the conclusion that "my life for Nurgle and Baledrakes". So he doesn't have problems with adjusting or playing differently. His codex is simply worse. That's all.

Lobukia:
Sadly, those things aren't exactly the special features of the CSM codex. So to say. Like, you can bring... uhm... Noise Marines with Blastmasters... Baledrakes... and that's all (and no Barrage weapons for you!). And the usual Riptides + Missilesides combo will eat these for breakfast. Yes, you can ally up with IG, but if you have to bring units from a different codex, then maybe you have problems.

How about a bit of objectivity instead? So lets have a look at just how full of crap you are...

Wargamescon

As the final cherry on top I would like to present the top 4 placing armies at the event. We'll be getting more in depth on these lists later this week.

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

From BoLS but I'm sure you can google it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/06/40k-army-meta-1-year-into-6th-edition.html

So yes some people are finding them viable, hell they are winning ranking places at tournaments. This isn't my experience its just some rational research as opposed to looking at what I've personally seen and thinking that equals everyone elses experience.

 davou wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 davou wrote:
Eldar may make a massive showing at tournaments but tau strufgle with fragile and expencive troops in an edition that leans heavily towards scoring on objectives. They're fantastic at killing, but they havent got staying power like power armor or hordes.

While they are a little fragile, tau do not have expensive Troops. 9 points for firewarriors is a good deal given what they have. 7 points for the sniper Kroot is a freakin' steal. Looking though the codex, the only things that I consider possibly over-priced are the Stealth Suits and of course the flyers. Crisis Suits and Hammerheads are priced about right, Broadsides are a bargain, and Riptides are likely underpriced. Some of the drone units are pricey but can be equipped to be worth the cost.

9pts for firewarriors is good in the context of the codex, and the unit sits inline with the direction that the army needs to press is strength, but they are absolutely expencive for what you get. You get a t3 troop, with no heavy weapons barring markerlights and no special weapons options at all; A transport that costs almost three times as much as the games archetypal transport and a base leadership of 7 with the sergeant upgrade costing more than twice what the standard members of the squad costs, and only giving 8.

I'm not arguing that they are bad, but my point stands, you can erase fire-warriors with just about any codex without much trouble, if you just bothered to actually shoot at them. The game is won 5 out of 6 times based on sitting on objectives, and tau don't have the flexibility to do that.

A tau player HAS to build lists and play games with the goal of smashing his opponents model count; there's no option to modify the game plan when you see that the other dudes army is going to resist that approach. The space marine codex can build a shooty list, and if the player see's that perhaps that approach isnt the best, he can shift into a turtle game, or a foot rush, or play his heavy armour, or any number of things.

God forbid tau ever try to grab the relic either.

Kroot are good, I'll concede, but they still don't fill the glaring gap of scoring unit with some sort of staying power.... In fact, their leadership situation is more dismal than the warriors, since they have no option to buy a tank, and the sergent cost/value math is twice as bad as the FW's

The thing with firewarriors being insane is the Ethereal. Juust hide one of thise in there and they get 30 str 5 shots for 90p+Ethereal which is what 55p? The ethereal gives this to every fire warrior unit nearby so can pretty much add him to 2-3 squads extra and he gives them ld 10 not 7. He is actually my biggest consern with tau since he boosts the gunline an insane amount for basically no points. And have fun charging them, when they can get like 70+ overwatch shots if you charge a unit ><

Fenric wrote:

 davou wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 davou wrote:
Eldar may make a massive showing at tournaments but tau strufgle with fragile and expencive troops in an edition that leans heavily towards scoring on objectives. They're fantastic at killing, but they havent got staying power like power armor or hordes.

While they are a little fragile, tau do not have expensive Troops. 9 points for firewarriors is a good deal given what they have. 7 points for the sniper Kroot is a freakin' steal. Looking though the codex, the only things that I consider possibly over-priced are the Stealth Suits and of course the flyers. Crisis Suits and Hammerheads are priced about right, Broadsides are a bargain, and Riptides are likely underpriced. Some of the drone units are pricey but can be equipped to be worth the cost.

9pts for firewarriors is good in the context of the codex, and the unit sits inline with the direction that the army needs to press is strength, but they are absolutely expencive for what you get. You get a t3 troop, with no heavy weapons barring markerlights and no special weapons options at all; A transport that costs almost three times as much as the games archetypal transport and a base leadership of 7 with the sergeant upgrade costing more than twice what the standard members of the squad costs, and only giving 8.

I'm not arguing that they are bad, but my point stands, you can erase fire-warriors with just about any codex without much trouble, if you just bothered to actually shoot at them. The game is won 5 out of 6 times based on sitting on objectives, and tau don't have the flexibility to do that.

A tau player HAS to build lists and play games with the goal of smashing his opponents model count; there's no option to modify the game plan when you see that the other dudes army is going to resist that approach. The space marine codex can build a shooty list, and if the player see's that perhaps that approach isnt the best, he can shift into a turtle game, or a foot rush, or play his heavy armour, or any number of things.

God forbid tau ever try to grab the relic either.

Kroot are good, I'll concede, but they still don't fill the glaring gap of scoring unit with some sort of staying power.... In fact, their leadership situation is more dismal than the warriors, since they have no option to buy a tank, and the sergent cost/value math is twice as bad as the FW's

The thing with firewarriors being insane is the Ethereal. Juust hide one of thise in there and they get 30 str 5 shots for 90p+Ethereal which is what 55p? The ethereal gives this to every fire warrior unit nearby so can pretty much add him to 2-3 squads extra and he gives them ld 10 not 7. He is actually my biggest consern with tau since he boosts the gunline an insane amount for basically no points. And have fun charging them, when they can get like 70+ overwatch shots if you charge a unit ><

Oh no doubt man, fire warriors are great at killing stuff in every phase of the game... But my point still stands, the game is about scoring objectives 5/6th of the time, and tau have to force a victory via killing to compete since they cant hunker down like some of the rest of the armies can. (not that they should be able to weather losses either, the way it works is currently very fluffy).

I feel like their strongest showing at tournaments is going to be as an allied detachment; adding needed killing power to forces that have the tough troops to deal with current scoring predilection. Just about everything about the squad is a little expencive, and it only gets worse when you consider that they cant even do the scoring job till you've neutered allot of the threats on the table.

cowen70 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

cowen70 wrote:

Once again YOUR experience isn't everyones. As I said perhaps he is having trouble adjusting and keeping pace with new codices but he might learn. Others clearly have.

Uhm... And what if you are wrong? Like, y'know, "YOUR experience isn't everyones" and stuff. For one, our C:N&B player tried out a bazillion different combinations, armies and tactics before he made the conclusion that "my life for Nurgle and Baledrakes". So he doesn't have problems with adjusting or playing differently. His codex is simply worse. That's all.

Lobukia:
Sadly, those things aren't exactly the special features of the CSM codex. So to say. Like, you can bring... uhm... Noise Marines with Blastmasters... Baledrakes... and that's all (and no Barrage weapons for you!). And the usual Riptides + Missilesides combo will eat these for breakfast. Yes, you can ally up with IG, but if you have to bring units from a different codex, then maybe you have problems.

How about a bit of objectivity instead? So lets have a look at just how full of crap you are...

Wargamescon

As the final cherry on top I would like to present the top 4 placing armies at the event. We'll be getting more in depth on these lists later this week.

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

From BoLS but I'm sure you can google it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/06/40k-army-meta-1-year-into-6th-edition.html

So yes some people are finding them viable, hell they are winning ranking places at tournaments. This isn't my experience its just some rational research as opposed to looking at what I've personally seen and thinking that equals everyone elses experience.

You do realize he was talking about Chaos Space Marines and not Chaos Daemons? 4th place as allies doesn't really prove anything, especially considering that the 4th place list didn't even include a single marine, it was just to add another DP with wings because the guy wanted the flying circus and a GUO.

http://southmsgamers.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-to-win-at-wargames-con-2013-top.html

4th
Here is an approximation of Ken's daemon list...
Fateweaver
GUO
2x Flying Nurgle Prince lvl 3, 2 Greater Rewards
CSM Flying Nurgle Prince -Black Mace
10x Cultists
Lots of Plague Bearers
Some Horrors

"rational research" indeed....

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

You do realize he was talking about Chaos Space Marines and not Chaos Daemons?

I think he was referring to the lack of Tau presence. What isn't surprising, since the tournament didn't really favor the Tau (with the super multi-objective missions and by-player terrain placement). I would also wait for the BRs of the Tau players and more importantly, some proper army breakdowns (that has allies stuff in it).

ClassicCarraway wrote:4th place as allies doesn't really prove anything, especially considering that the 4th place list didn't even include a single marine

If you look at the lists that are doing well (globally), almost none of them are using Marines. CSM are good, because they don't need to use Marines. They got Cultists as their compulsory 2 troops, then they got tough T5/T6 and killy HQs, best flyer in the game, T5/T6 Spawn and Bikes, and true T5 Oblits. Where's the Marines? Who needs them?

Marines suck. Kind of. Everything in this game can kill a lot of Marines now and spending on them simply isn't good (and before someone posts some random tournament where a list with Marines did well -- someone always does well somewhere with a non-optimal army). It's not that Marines would pay a lot for their armor but mostly they don't have very good weapon or vehicle options available to them, or just the simple fact that there's something even better in the other slots that you can spend your points on. Especially when you remove the mental blockage and start using allies. Then you get to a lot of really good stuff and at 1.85K and 2K points you're going to run out of points much faster than you run out of force organisation slots for overpowered non-MEQ units, vehicles and monsters.

What this means for the upcoming Codex: Vanilla Space Marines I don't know. If the Dark Angels are anything to go by I'd be inclined to bet the new SM will be a very mediocre army on the power scale.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

You do realize he was talking about Chaos Space Marines and not Chaos Daemons?

I think he was referring to the lack of Tau presence. What isn't surprising, since the tournament didn't really favor the Tau (with the super multi-objective missions and by-player terrain placement). I would also wait for the BRs of the Tau players and more importantly, some proper army breakdowns (that has allies stuff in it).

He specifically responded to a post about the lack of effectiveness of CSM, and even says people are finding them effective enough to place in tournaments. I don't think he was referring to Tau at all (since Tau weren't on that top 4 list)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:

ClassicCarraway wrote:4th place as allies doesn't really prove anything, especially considering that the 4th place list didn't even include a single marine

If you look at the lists that are doing well (globally), almost none of them are using Marines. CSM are good, because they don't need to use Marines. They got Cultists as their compulsory 2 troops, then they got tough T5/T6 and killy HQs, best flyer in the game, T5/T6 Spawn and Bikes, and true T5 Oblits. Where's the Marines? Who needs them?

Marines suck. Kind of. Everything in this game can kill a lot of Marines now and spending on them simply isn't good (and before someone posts some random tournament where a list with Marines did well -- someone always does well somewhere with a non-optimal army). It's not that Marines would pay a lot for their armor but mostly they don't have very good weapon or vehicle options available to them, or just the simple fact that there's something even better in the other slots that you can spend your points on. Especially when you remove the mental blockage and start using allies. Then you get to a lot of really good stuff and at 1.85K and 2K points you're going to run out of points much faster than you run out of force organisation slots for overpowered non-MEQ units, vehicles and monsters.

What this means for the upcoming Codex: Vanilla Space Marines I don't know. If the Dark Angels are anything to go by I'd be inclined to bet the new SM will be a very mediocre army on the power scale.

I think you just kind of proved AtoMaki's point. Chaos Space Marines are good....providing you avoid the actual marines and just spam the few good units.

I don't think you can just discount an army's lack of effectiveness by saying, "Take allies". That just proves the army doesn't have enough to stand on its own legs. Any army that is generally required to take allies to make an effective TAC list (not necessarily a tourney list) is a poorly designed army.

I don't think you can just discount an army's lack of effectiveness by saying, "Take allies". That just proves the army doesn't have enough to stand on its own legs. Any army that is generally required to take allies to make an effective TAC list (not necessarily a tourney list) is a poorly designed army.

Well that depends. Heldrakes, Obliterators, Khorne Lords on Juggernaughts, are certainly first tier and as good as anything in this game goes point by point. To make an absolutely unstoppable army you avoid the 'less than best' units by naturally taking allies. But a CSM army without allies is still a reasonably good army, although not as good as Necrons and maybe not as good as Tau.

However, that said, allies are an integral part of the game now, and every grand tournament in Europe that I've seen lately have allowed them. Taking that into consideration the best army in the game is no longer Necrons, or Tau, or CSM, or whatever, but the question is whether its Necrons with CSM, CSM with Necrons, CSM with Tau, or another combination of good army books. That's just the way GW decided to change the game in 6th. Mono-codex armies are by definition second tier compared to dual-codex armies, so its an academic point whether pure CSM are as competitive as pure Tau, since neither is competitive versus dual-codex versions of those same armies.

Oh my goodness so the argument wasn't chaos daemons but marines, that is even more ridiculous. And quite frankly placing fourth is a rather good argument against them not being able to win...if they can place fourth in a tournament they clearly can win.

So yeah of course the units with the heldrake are suffering of course! I'm sure you'll garner loads of sympathy.

Exactly the same amounts of sympathy as all the nerdrage who claimed the heldrake made the game broken.

I play this game yet I loathe nerdrage. There is a paradox worthy of chaos.