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So we are now 5 codex releases into 6th edition, and many feel that the most recent codex trilogy is showing a definate power creep when compared to the previous trilogy (CM, DA, CD). Its becoming increasingly hard to argue against that, as both Tau and Eldar received serious buffs and almost complete overhauls, while both the CM and DA releases were decent but generally viewed as a mixed bag with as much bad as there was good, and CD got hit hard with the nerf bat across the board, with the main focus of improvement being in the form of (much) cheaper troops.

Allegedly, next in line in the 2nd codex trilogy is Codex: Space Marines. Now, if the trend of power creep and overhauls is true, alot of SM players (myself included) are going to be really happy later this year. But I see one big problem that is likely going to prevent the big power jump, and that is Codex: Dark Angels. 90% of the units that will be available in C:SM will be the same as CA, so there is very little room for improvement on a large scale. Some of the units that really need some help (such as Assault Marines, Land Speeders, and Dreadnaughts) are pretty much set in stone and likely won't be changed, and probably won't even see a much needed points reduction.

Currently, C:SM are a decent army with a number of options, but they lack that certain something that really puts them on par with the last two releases as well as some of the 5th edition powerhouses. I, for one, will probably avoid playing my SM army against Eldar, instead going with my CD army. SM pay a premium for heavy armour, and just about everything in the Eldar army can negate that. Another problem is that much of their versatility comes in the form of cheap tanks but those same tanks are extremely fragile (as are most vehicles outside a Monolith or Landraider), and they either lack the range needed (Vindicator) or lack the punch (Whirlwind) to be much use in a TAC list. I would gladly pay an extra 15-20 points for the Vindicator if they increased the range to 36", but its not going to happen because its already been established in the DA book.

So, given what we already know is established, what do you see being changed with the upcoming codex? Of the existing units, I'd personally like to see cheaper command squads, and some improvements to the veteran units. Sternguard need a points reduction in the worst kind of way, and how about dropping Gets Hot from the vengence rounds while we are at it. They are good, but overpriced for what they can do, and they are largely relegated to combi-weapon suicide duty, which doesn't really fit the general use of a chapters finest. Vanguard are so expensive they are just not usable, so a decent points reduction (and default to power weapons) would make them much more desirable. Assault Termies are probably due a slight points increase to bring them in line with DA.

As far as new stuff goes, the rumor mill has hinted that there is some new infantry unit coming that rests between Dreadnaughts and terminators, but there has been, to date, no fluff to support such a unit, but new units coming out of the blue are not really a new thing for 6th edition. Also floating around is the idea of some sort of Chapter Traits table that could potentially change the way the army plays in a number of ways. I personally think both are wishlisting, but I'm all for some new stuff. I would love to see some additional heavy support weapons in the same vein as the Thunderfire Cannon, but with heavier hitting firepower, but I have a feeling I'll need to hit up Forgeworld for that sort of thing.

So what are your wish lists and dreams for the new SM codex? What do you think is truly needed?

Codex Space Marines is awesome and did great at adepticon with some allies.

Not really sure what you're trying to convey about Tau and Eldar either. Did you ever play more than 1500 points of Tau or Eldar? They were terribly dated armies that were pretty bad in all of 5th edition and semi decent (Deldar Torks) in 6th with allies, but not alone.

The recent releases merely brought them "up" power wise to where the current armies are right now. Even with that, a good IG or Cron player isn't going to really struggle against Tau or Eldar. He certainly isn't going to walk through them like he would of a few months back.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Not really sure what you're trying to convey about Tau and Eldar either. Did you ever play more than 1500 points of Tau or Eldar? They were terribly dated armies that were pretty bad in all of 5th edition and semi decent (Deldar Torks) in 6th with allies, but not alone.

The recent releases merely brought them "up" power wise to where the current armies are right now. Even with that, a good IG or Cron player isn't going to really struggle against Tau or Eldar. He certainly isn't going to walk through them like he would of a few months back.

So Tau and Eldar still can't beat up Imperial Guard or Necrons? That's kind of a shame. I had an IG player who handed my Tau behind to me multiple times in 5th edition and I was really wanting some payback.

By the way, congratulations on that massive row of 7s in your member statistics.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Codex Space Marines is awesome and did great at adepticon with some allies.

Not really sure what you're trying to convey about Tau and Eldar either. Did you ever play more than 1500 points of Tau or Eldar? They were terribly dated armies that were pretty bad in all of 5th edition and semi decent (Deldar Torks) in 6th with allies, but not alone.

The recent releases merely brought them "up" power wise to where the current armies are right now. Even with that, a good IG or Cron player isn't going to really struggle against Tau or Eldar. He certainly isn't going to walk through them like he would of a few months back.

I have played several games at 1750 against pre-6th Edition Codex Eldar over the last 8 months. Granted, my opponent had to spam Warwalkers and Eldrad alot, but he put up a good showing, winning as much as he lost. Granted, we don't play ultra competative flyer heavy lists, but we don't do pure fluff bunny lists either. His go-to units were max squads of warwalkers, warpspiders, Dark Reapers, and vypers, with some jetbikes and guardians thrown in and always led by Eldrad and sometimes an Avatar. He recently started using multiple WL and WG squads which were pretty difficult for Marines to deal with to begin with. He particularly enjoyed taking units that the interwebz claimed were useless when in fact they worked just fine for the most part.

Sorry if you disagree, but Eldar got some serious buffs, more than was needed to bring them up to the other 6th edition armies if that was the goal. Bladestorm is more powerful than people are giving it credit for, being effective both against MC and MEQ/TEQ units, especially with the buff to the basic Guardian stat line. WS are damned effective for a dedicated transport, and Wraithguard got nastier and easier to field. Most of the Aspects ranged from decent to useless, and now all of them have been upgraded to pretty dang good to absurdly good (with the lone exception of Banshees). Warpspiders were already very good, and they not only got cheaper but they got much better with the monofiliment rule.

Tau got a few pretty beefy buffs too, but with the exception of the Riptide, got little in the way of a new way to do things. Tau are still a gunline lovers dream, just like they were before, now they are just alot better at it. However, I've not had much experience against Tau, as we don't have a regular player that runs them, but I dare say that tournaments will be seeing alot of high placing Tau armies over the coming months.

You might have misunderstood me regarding my sentiments about C:SM. I said its a good army, but you said it yourself, they need allies to really be effective. A good army should be able to stand on it own. I absolutely believe Tau and Eldar no longer need allies to be competative in the tournament scene, in fact, they will likely be the go-to allies to make other armies more competative.

As for the power creep, can you honestly look at Tau and Eldar now and then look at Chaos Marines and Dark Angels and not see evidence of a creep? Its not to Grey Knights or Necron levels, but its noticable.

The biggest problem with Space Marines is that they pretty much have everything they need now. As you alluded to, their biggest problem is that many of their units are just too expensive to be used.

Command Squads need a point cut, basically 5 points an upgrade on all their melee weapons (although bikes with melee weapons are still a very good unit, just too expensive). Vanguard likewise. At 30 points a model with jump packs and a power weapon with the option to upgrade to a claw (no cost) two claws (+5) a fist or shield (+10 for either) or hammer (+15) and some reduction on scatter for deep-striking they'd become a useful albeit still reasonably pricey so not spammable option.

Sternguard suffer from occupying the most in demand slot in the Space Marine dex. An option to move them to troops (say by taking Pedro) would be advantageous, but of course you couldn't then drop the point cost, they'd have to remain twice as expensive as tactical squads just to avoid people dropping tacticals altogether.

To represent the tactical flexibility of the Space Marines I think they should offer an "almost" variant of other Chapters. For example now a Captain on bike offers an "almost" Ravenwing. I would extend it to a Captain in terminator armour making tactical (and only tactical) terminator squads troops and a Captain with jump pack making jump pack equipped assault marines (and only those with jump packs) troops (assault squads need melta and plasma guns though). Command Squads (if their character has the same equipment) should be able to take bikes, jump packs, or terminator armour and like the Dark Angels you start with a squad of five veterans of which one can become a Champion, one can become a Apothecary (both changing their base equipment for their specialist equipment, which they cannot subsequently change) and one able to carry a standard (which does not preclude him taking normal veteran equipment). Command Squads shouldn't be limited to Captains.

Make Honour Guard into a regular elite unit and merge the Captain and Chapter Master since they're basically the same unit anyway.

Make relic blades AP2.

Bring points for units like Tactical squads and Devestator squads in line with the Dark Angels.

At my Local Gaming Store I see all the new codexes as very balanced when played against each other. Not one wins more than the others

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Codex Space Marines is awesome and did great at adepticon with some allies.

Space marines didn't do squat. Tony Kopach is arguably the best player in the world, so he had that going for him. He played a list of Storm Talons (Flyers, added recently) and Thunderfire cannons which are broken in the 6th edition rules change over going from an AV10 piece of garbage to T7 W2 3+ save killing machine. His troops were 2 5 man tactical squads in rhinos, outflanking via Khan for scoring line breaker and a 50+ man imperial guard blob.

Space marines didn't carry him to the top, him being one of the best in the world, a couple of extremely good allies and units that got over powered in the 6th edition rules did. In the end he didn't even end up winning.

Space marines will not be a top end book in 6th edition. It never has been and never will be. The meta of today is also EXTREMELY unfriendly to power armor, with plasma everywhere, AP2 and AP3 large blasts available in large quantites and now rending on basic ranged weapons starting to pop up. Of course there's helldrakes as well.....marine exterminators extraordinaire. If you look at the top 16 for adepticon, there was almost zero power armor. The chaos lists used cultists, anything with IG had blobs, necrons used min sized warrior squads in nightscythes and GKs used terminators/paladins. I think Tony's list with a staggering 12 power armored models had the most, and this was BEFORE demons, Tau and Eldar showed up, further eroding power armor's viability.

It's a dark time to be a competitive MeQ player...and I don't see it getting better in 6th edition.

Now now I wouldn't say the CD Codex got nerfed to bad. We have some locals that play them and they still shred everything that comes at them if the list is made right.

Sigh, there isn't any power creep intended in 6e. I'm very comfortable taking CSM against Tau (for example) and most players would be. Tournament play is not rulebook play. There are no IA units, missions work to where troops become disproportionately important, and a strong kill point list can't really win.

SM will probably get a bit better. I don't expect any major changes other than somethings getting cheaper and 3 new units. Dreadnoughts might gain a SR and a few things might get a little bit more expensive. That's it.

Powercreep is in your head and inability to handle new codices, that's it (don't feel bad, others are struggling too, but once Tau and Eldar have been around 6+ months, they'll be in line with DA and CSM (I don' t play CD enough to say)).

Nothing to see here, move on folks

I really do think that the 'power creep' has more to do with the community being inexperienced at facing the new codexes. I think that the Tau, Eldar, and Dark Angels really needed an update, and that their armies all got much needed overhauls to bring them in line with everyone else, not catapult them ahead of everyone else. After a little while, people will begin to grow accustomed to the new layout, and it will all settle down again.

nuke knight wrote:
Now now I wouldn't say the CD Codex got nerfed to bad. We have some locals that play them and they still shred everything that comes at them if the list is made right.

+1
Codex Chaos Daemons got a massive improvement all 'round. Proper deployment making us playable vs GK's for once, cheaper Troops that are now expendable if needs be, more Beast & Cavalry type units than you can count, psychic powers out the ying-yang...
Daemons overall are pretty rough, especially to armies like Tau who have very limited psychic defenses and pretty much need allies to avoid getting blown apart by Tzeentch.

Overall, the power creep, (if there really is any at all), is pretty miniscule and absolutely nothing like the BS we had to put up with in 5th edition, where every new codex became a giant one-uping of the last, to the point we had entire codices that became completely unplayable!!! (ie: Grey Knights pretty much auto f***ed-up every single Tyranid & Daemon army!)

GW heard our complaints, and they've begun taking steps to re-address their approach to the armies. Thus far the first 5 books are all pretty even to each other in terms of power.

What'll be interesting is to see the "problem author's" first book or two for 40k. His first pair of Fantasy books have been hilariously bad with one being really, really solid and the other being what is easily the worst of the 8th ed books...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Make Honour Guard into a regular elite unit and merge the Captain and Chapter Master since they're basically the same unit anyway.

I thought Honor Guard were the Command Squad for the Chapter Master. I think they should remain an HQ choice that can only be taken with a Chapter Master but doesn't take up an HQ slot. Same thing with the Command Squad as they've done in the Dark Angels codex.

Experiment 626 wrote:

nuke knight wrote:
Now now I wouldn't say the CD Codex got nerfed to bad. We have some locals that play them and they still shred everything that comes at them if the list is made right.

+1
Codex Chaos Daemons got a massive improvement all 'round. Proper deployment making us playable vs GK's for once, cheaper Troops that are now expendable if needs be, more Beast & Cavalry type units than you can count, psychic powers out the ying-yang...
Daemons overall are pretty rough, especially to armies like Tau who have very limited psychic defenses and pretty much need allies to avoid getting blown apart by Tzeentch.

I agree, while we don't see powercreep, the first 5 armies all require different levels of skill to run...

What'll be interesting is to see the "problem author's" first book or two for 40k. His first pair of Fantasy books have been hilariously bad with one being really, really solid and the other being what is easily the worst of the 8th ed books...

Do we know what his next book will be? ...please not SM, I can't take that crap again for another whole edition

nuke knight wrote:
Now now I wouldn't say the CD Codex got nerfed to bad. We have some locals that play them and they still shred everything that comes at them if the list is made right.

Oh I still think CD are a very good army, but alot of their units got nerfed (and it was needed on some, to be fair), but the flip side is, the basic troops got really cheap and are really effective at what they do, and each one fills a useful role. Also, Fleshhounds and Seekers!

Originally, I viewed the Flamer nerf as very necessary, but then we got AP2 with ID on 6s flamers on T6/3+ fearless models that can be made Troops with access to Wave Serpents, and now I'm starting to wonder...maybe a simple points increase for Flamers would have been the way to go.

As for Marine improvements, I like the proposed idea of making a way to turn Sternguard (and how about Vanguard) into troops, but I hope its through a generic HQ instead of a named Special Character, maybe a 1st Company Captain that turns any one of the three veteran units into a troops choice. If Sternguard were troops, I'd be okay with their current price (which i still feel is a point or two too high), but Vanguard would still need a point reduction.

I know its pure wishlisting, but I still would really like to see a Chapter and/or Primarch Traits chart, preferably one that wasn't completely broken like the older version was. I know it won't happen, but one can dream

How about this, the speed in which new codexes are release makes us players find it difficult to react to. We are still figuring out how to play against the new codexes while a new one is already being thrown to us. In the past we had a few months to learn how to play against each new codex, now we have to spend our limit capabilities over much more new codexes, that makes it by default harder to adept to new codexes.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

nuke knight wrote:
Now now I wouldn't say the CD Codex got nerfed to bad. We have some locals that play them and they still shred everything that comes at them if the list is made right.

Oh I still think CD are a very good army, but alot of their units got nerfed (and it was needed on some, to be fair), but the flip side is, the basic troops got really cheap and are really effective at what they do, and each one fills a useful role. Also, Fleshhounds and Seekers!

Originally, I viewed the Flamer nerf as very necessary, but then we got AP2 with ID on 6s flamers on T6/3+ fearless models that can be made Troops with access to Wave Serpents, and now I'm starting to wonder...maybe a simple points increase for Flamers would have been the way to go.

The difference being however, those T6 models cost more than a Terminator to gain the ap2 template 'o doom, and 3+ saves are ridiculously easy to deal with due to everyone and their mother knowing how to deal with MEQ's.

On the other hand, Flamers are still almost as good when used in large units, are cheaper (almost 2-for-1 in terms of pts value) AND are actually a better version of Fearless since they can now go to ground for example to gain an even better save. (ie: it's much easier to gain a 2++ re-roll 1's on Flamers than it is to set that kind of save up for Wraithguard!)
Where they lose out is against T5 or better, multi-wound models and/or 2+ saves, at which point the D-scythe is just plain rude.

I asked my only remaining CSM player about this "power creep" stuff, and he said that he couldn't decide if I'm f*cking with him or not. Then he turned back to the table to save his army from yet another Turn 3 Wipe Out by the almighty Tau.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I asked my only remaining CSM player about this "power creep" stuff, and he said that he couldn't decide if I'm f*cking with him or not. Then he turned back to the table to save his army from yet another Turn 3 Wipe Out by the almighty Tau.

One person having trouble can just mean he is having trouble adjusting to new rules or just not very good. Its about time people learned, their experience isn't everyones.

cowen70 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I asked my only remaining CSM player about this "power creep" stuff, and he said that he couldn't decide if I'm f*cking with him or not. Then he turned back to the table to save his army from yet another Turn 3 Wipe Out by the almighty Tau.

One person having trouble can just mean he is having trouble adjusting to new rules or just not very good. Its about time people learned, their experience isn't everyones.

There is a reason why he is the last Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes player... And oddly enough, he has no problem with beating SM or Orks.

Would be nice to see the Whirlwind get an AA "Hunter" version. Been there in Epic, why not 40k?

Perhaps a nod to some of the HH:Betrayal units? Siege shields and bolters would be interesting. Maybe allow sternguard to take SS's at least on Sergeants?

Vanguard Vets getting JP"s standard would be nice. Heroic Intervention extending to SM IC's would make me happy, not sure if it's a game breaker though.

Don't find anything about a "between termie and dread" unit or a large oval base unit appealing at all. Doesn't fit the fluff one bit.

Give dreads the assault DP in the codex would be great as well. Definitely JP's for command squads so I'm not tempted to play my Raven Guard as BA.

 AtoMaki wrote:

cowen70 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I asked my only remaining CSM player about this "power creep" stuff, and he said that he couldn't decide if I'm f*cking with him or not. Then he turned back to the table to save his army from yet another Turn 3 Wipe Out by the almighty Tau.

One person having trouble can just mean he is having trouble adjusting to new rules or just not very good. Its about time people learned, their experience isn't everyones.

There is a reason why he is the last Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes player... And oddly enough, he has no problem with beating SM or Orks.

Once again YOUR experience isn't everyones. As I said perhaps he is having trouble adjusting and keeping pace with new codices but he might learn. Others clearly have.

@AtoMaki

Tau die to ordnance weapons and ap 4 or better that ignores cover. Just screen anything you don't want drop melta-ed with cultists at least 5" out and you're fine. If a CSM player is struggling with Tau in a non-tournament setting, he's not so creative (tournaments play different, as they really aren't book missions anymore). If you allow IA, then your CSM player is a moron or has a tight budget (which means he'll lose to any meta changing list, creep or not).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Codex Space Marines is awesome and did great at adepticon with some allies.

Not really sure what you're trying to convey about Tau and Eldar either. Did you ever play more than 1500 points of Tau or Eldar? They were terribly dated armies that were pretty bad in all of 5th edition and semi decent (Deldar Torks) in 6th with allies, but not alone.

The recent releases merely brought them "up" power wise to where the current armies are right now. Even with that, a good IG or Cron player isn't going to really struggle against Tau or Eldar. He certainly isn't going to walk through them like he would of a few months back.

I have played several games at 1750 against pre-6th Edition Codex Eldar over the last 8 months. Granted, my opponent had to spam Warwalkers and Eldrad alot, but he put up a good showing, winning as much as he lost. Granted, we don't play ultra competative flyer heavy lists, but we don't do pure fluff bunny lists either. His go-to units were max squads of warwalkers, warpspiders, Dark Reapers, and vypers, with some jetbikes and guardians thrown in and always led by Eldrad and sometimes an Avatar. He recently started using multiple WL and WG squads which were pretty difficult for Marines to deal with to begin with. He particularly enjoyed taking units that the interwebz claimed were useless when in fact they worked just fine for the most part.

Sorry if you disagree, but Eldar got some serious buffs, more than was needed to bring them up to the other 6th edition armies if that was the goal. Bladestorm is more powerful than people are giving it credit for, being effective both against MC and MEQ/TEQ units, especially with the buff to the basic Guardian stat line. WS are damned effective for a dedicated transport, and Wraithguard got nastier and easier to field. Most of the Aspects ranged from decent to useless, and now all of them have been upgraded to pretty dang good to absurdly good (with the lone exception of Banshees). Warpspiders were already very good, and they not only got cheaper but they got much better with the monofiliment rule.

Tau got a few pretty beefy buffs too, but with the exception of the Riptide, got little in the way of a new way to do things. Tau are still a gunline lovers dream, just like they were before, now they are just alot better at it. However, I've not had much experience against Tau, as we don't have a regular player that runs them, but I dare say that tournaments will be seeing alot of high placing Tau armies over the coming months.

You might have misunderstood me regarding my sentiments about C:SM. I said its a good army, but you said it yourself, they need allies to really be effective. A good army should be able to stand on it own. I absolutely believe Tau and Eldar no longer need allies to be competative in the tournament scene, in fact, they will likely be the go-to allies to make other armies more competative.

As for the power creep, can you honestly look at Tau and Eldar now and then look at Chaos Marines and Dark Angels and not see evidence of a creep? Its not to Grey Knights or Necron levels, but its noticable.

Eldar may make a massive showing at tournaments but tau strufgle with fragile and expencive troops in an edition that leans heavily towards scoring on objectives. They're fantastic at killing, but they havent got staying power like power armor or hordes.

GW developers have a tendency to overcompensate in both directions. It is hard to imagine that the marines wont get one or two units that are too good to be true. We are talking about GW golden goose you know.

One problem the marines have is the presence of many medium vehicles and a walker in their army. I dont see how the new codex can make these better since their weakness is due to the core rules.

With the allied rules, codex creep is more or less a thing of the past since you can shore up any weakness with an ally for the majority of armies.

cowen70 wrote:

Once again YOUR experience isn't everyones. As I said perhaps he is having trouble adjusting and keeping pace with new codices but he might learn. Others clearly have.

Uhm... And what if you are wrong? Like, y'know, "YOUR experience isn't everyones" and stuff. For one, our C:N&B player tried out a bazillion different combinations, armies and tactics before he made the conclusion that "my life for Nurgle and Baledrakes". So he doesn't have problems with adjusting or playing differently. His codex is simply worse. That's all.

Lobukia:
Sadly, those things aren't exactly the special features of the CSM codex. So to say. Like, you can bring... uhm... Noise Marines with Blastmasters... Baledrakes... and that's all (and no Barrage weapons for you!). And the usual Riptides + Missilesides combo will eat these for breakfast. Yes, you can ally up with IG, but if you have to bring units from a different codex, then maybe you have problems.

I've had no problems with the new Tau codex so far. My SoB can still beat them pretty badly. Kill his mobility, then kill his troops, then mop up the rest. TBH I think my opponent killed more of my troops with exploding Devilfish than anyting else last game though the battlesuit commander with bodyguards also made a good showing.

Then again, we were also spread out quite wide on the battlefield. He couldn't concentrate enough fire on my units. If he'd had more suits instead of the two fliers (bomber + fighter) he'd also have made more of a dent in me.

Don't see the creep in the recent books to be honest (though I haven't read that deeply into Eldar).

The worst overall "balance-hick-up" in 6th Edition is clearly the Heldrake. Probably the worst in 40K overall since the Space Wolves disaster.

Everything released in 6th Edition since CSM hasn't been nearly as bad as game-play balance goes (though the lazy copy-&-paste errors in the Daemon Codex are a travesty in many other ways). .

^ Agreed.

OP: The codex "creep" you see right now are much needed updates to very outdated armies (mainly Tau and Eldar as we've already established).

What's best, in my opinion, is that now the xenos armies have a true identity. The Tau are amazing at shooting, but have abysmal CC capabilities and lack scoring terminators. The Eldar on the other hand are the most versatile codex, being able to mech up, troops spam or use elite infantry. But all the Eldar units are expensive as black market organs to compensate.

But C: SM on the other hand are a "jack-of-all-trades" kind of an army. They are cheap and durable and can do pretty much anything you need them to do, so it's unlikely they would receive huge game changing rules like DWA or battle Focus. Most likely they will gain a reliable access to Skyfire and interceptor weapons and the obligatory Smurf Knight.

 davou wrote:
Eldar may make a massive showing at tournaments but tau strufgle with fragile and expencive troops in an edition that leans heavily towards scoring on objectives. They're fantastic at killing, but they havent got staying power like power armor or hordes.

While they are a little fragile, tau do not have expensive Troops. 9 points for firewarriors is a good deal given what they have. 7 points for the sniper Kroot is a freakin' steal. Looking though the codex, the only things that I consider possibly over-priced are the Stealth Suits and of course the flyers. Crisis Suits and Hammerheads are priced about right, Broadsides are a bargain, and Riptides are likely underpriced. Some of the drone units are pricey but can be equipped to be worth the cost.

And I guess that's mostly where I see Tau with a slight power creep, the points cost for most of their units is pretty low for what they can do. At 1500 points, a Tau army can easily include all the heavy hitters (nicely-equipped Crisis Suits, Broadsides, a Riptide, and a Hammerhead) without having to resort to minimizing basic Troops, something that CSM, DA, and CD generally can't do.


Don't get me wrong about the term "power creep"...I never meant it to mean Tau and Eldar are OP, it just means that as an army, they are in a better position (either by being spoiled for choice of effective units, or just more cost efficient) than the 6th edition armies that came before them. It also doesn't mean that DA, CSM, and CD can't or won't beat Tau and Eldar armies.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 davou wrote:
Eldar may make a massive showing at tournaments but tau strufgle with fragile and expencive troops in an edition that leans heavily towards scoring on objectives. They're fantastic at killing, but they havent got staying power like power armor or hordes.

While they are a little fragile, tau do not have expensive Troops. 9 points for firewarriors is a good deal given what they have. 7 points for the sniper Kroot is a freakin' steal. Looking though the codex, the only things that I consider possibly over-priced are the Stealth Suits and of course the flyers. Crisis Suits and Hammerheads are priced about right, Broadsides are a bargain, and Riptides are likely underpriced. Some of the drone units are pricey but can be equipped to be worth the cost.

9pts for firewarriors is good in the context of the codex, and the unit sits inline with the direction that the army needs to press is strength, but they are absolutely expencive for what you get. You get a t3 troop, with no heavy weapons barring markerlights and no special weapons options at all; A transport that costs almost three times as much as the games archetypal transport and a base leadership of 7 with the sergeant upgrade costing more than twice what the standard members of the squad costs, and only giving 8.

I'm not arguing that they are bad, but my point stands, you can erase fire-warriors with just about any codex without much trouble, if you just bothered to actually shoot at them. The game is won 5 out of 6 times based on sitting on objectives, and tau don't have the flexibility to do that.

A tau player HAS to build lists and play games with the goal of smashing his opponents model count; there's no option to modify the game plan when you see that the other dudes army is going to resist that approach. The space marine codex can build a shooty list, and if the player see's that perhaps that approach isnt the best, he can shift into a turtle game, or a foot rush, or play his heavy armour, or any number of things.

God forbid tau ever try to grab the relic either.

Kroot are good, I'll concede, but they still don't fill the glaring gap of scoring unit with some sort of staying power.... In fact, their leadership situation is more dismal than the warriors, since they have no option to buy a tank, and the sergent cost/value math is twice as bad as the FW's