Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I hope whoever makes a small Combat Patrol Tournament has the common sense to ban flyers like my FLGS does, otherwise this is madness.

No, it is FUN. What could be fluffier than a small Tau recon element supported by aircraft rushing to the battle as soon as they make contact with a hostile force? Why should there be house rules that ban everything someone doesn't like?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Don't you have to take an HQ choice?

not in the tourney I played in - you just had to nominate one model as your "leader"

It's not "something that someone doesn't like". Official 400 point rules simply would ban flyers if they existed.

It's not fun for anyone without flyers. It's way overkill. Why not allow ordnance, 6 wounds and everything? Some people only find winning fun.

"Wow he's so fluffy, brought flyers to a 400 point game." Talk about bringing a gun to a knife fight lol.

I'm sure you know what I mean!

You might enjoy thrashing people as best you can but others might prefer more laid back games

I like it when both I and my opponent give our all to winning the game. Its no fun when one side rofl-stomps the other, and its even less fun when one side refuses to bring their A-game because they want to play with, their definition of, "fluffy" lists.

Fluffy is not the opposite of optimized. An IG leafblower list is perfectly fluffy. Massed rows of Guardsmen sitting behind their ADL while the Basilisks and LRBTs flatten the enemy from afar.

 foxyfennec wrote:
Official 400 point rules simply would ban flyers if they existed.

Are you kidding? Official 400 point rules would not only allow flyers, they'd give you a 99% decrease in the point cost of flyers. And on the day the book is published all flyer kits would get a 50% price increase.

"Wow he's so fluffy, brought flyers to a 400 point game." Talk about bringing a gun to a knife fight lol.

It is fluffy. It represents a small Tau infantry force scouting and designating targets for an air strike, exactly the kind of thing that the Tau did on Taros (and elsewhere) to disrupt Imperial supply lines. The only way to make it more fluffy would be to use pathfinders or stealth suits instead of the fire warriors, but the mandatory troops choice makes this impossible. And removing the flyers to do anything but a small infantry force supported by aircraft would make it less fluffy, since what I posted is the standard Tau patrol force.

As per the original combat patrol, you don't have to take an HQ. The only (main) requirement for Force Organization was/is a Troops unit.

Also, no flyers in my games of CP. Not because the rules don't allow it, but because a player who takes flyers in a Combat patrol game is being a total jerk because of how idiotically well flyers operate versus such small-scale games. Combat patrol games are just meant to be for fun, not an utter domination enabled by the original rules being written in a time when the only flyers were from Forgeworld. CP games are like the 'beer and pretzels' version of 40K.

I once thought of taking a Wave Serpent with my Eldar force, but that even seemed too powerful for the 'spirit' of Combat Mission games, though perfectly legal. I would only do it if my opponent and I were in agreement about taking a vehicle or two as the whole point of that specific game session.

Hell, I was surprised when the original Combat Patrol rules even allowed vehicles at all.

Remember as well that these rules came out in a time when the Flyer rules from the Vehicle Design Rules were deemed to be OP by 90% of players, and from what I know, the flyer rules of nowadays are even better in favor of the flyer.

The entire theme of CP games is a small scouting force that has to make do without being able to bring it's best troops and equipment, and the 3+ wound HQ units are part of that. If you want all the best stuff your army can bring, just play a full game of 40K.........the entire point of Combat Patrol was the restrictions.

How exactly are you meant to bring down flyers in combat patrol, without having to resort to a quad gun?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The entire theme of CP games is a small scouting force that has to make do without being able to bring it's best troops and equipment

And the fluffiest possible "small scouting force" for the Tau is a small infantry (usually pathfinders or stealth suits) force supported by flyers or long-range seeker missiles. So unless you want to face a 400 points of Pathfinders and an unlimited supply of seeker missiles (which can't even be done without a house rule) that means taking flyers.

(Really the fluffiest scouting force would be an invisible Remora drone miles above the battlefield calling in the air strikes, but I'll generously stick with the one that actually involves a battle.)

and the 3+ wound HQ units are part of that.

Except, as I already said, that restriction actually makes some armies LESS fluffy. The standard chain of command HQ for an IG army is the CCS, which has a 3-wound model. The only two-wound HQs are specialist advisors that would only be present in a larger battle (where they would be assisting the CCS). A patrol led by a primaris psyker would be completely un-fluffy.

I have never played a game of combat patrol but I am really intrigued.

I think I will whip up a little list and see what I come up with and play with a friend. This game mode seems really interesting, I like playing smaller games and I think the restrictions would make it more fun


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this is what I came up with for my tau:

No HQ (doesn't specify I HAVE to take an hq)

Troops
Firewarrior team X 4 (216 points)

Crisis suit with drone controller plasma, missile launder and 1 gun drones (72 points)

Crisis suit with burst cannon, burst cannon, drone controller and 1 gun drones (62 points)

Piranha with 1 seeker missile (48 points)

Total is 398 points if you go by the 400 point limit

chiefbigredman wrote:
drone controller and 1 gun drones (62 points)

This is pointless. The drone controller costs almost as much as an entire additional drone, so drop both DCs and add a second gun drone to one of the suits.

To make this relevant to the general topic, this highlights the difficulty in making a good 400 point list. Every point counts, so you have to be very careful with your choice of upgrades.

Except, as I already said, that restriction actually makes some armies LESS fluffy. The standard chain of command HQ for an IG army is the CCS, which has a 3-wound model. The only two-wound HQs are specialist advisors that would only be present in a larger battle (where they would be assisting the CCS). A patrol led by a primaris psyker would be completely un-fluffy.

Or....because it's such a small force, it could easily be "fluffy" that the Sergeant of one of the squads is an NCO in charge of a scouting force, validating why you don't necessarily have to take an HQ. Not that big a deal to work around.

Ok, so back in on this and in front of a keyboard, I will touch on points that I have read to try and approach as many issues of this as I can;

For the no models with more than 2 wounds rule yes, is a holdover from the first rule set of 40k in 40 minutes which was designed with 4th edition in mind I think limiting it to the more common 3 wounds is not unreasonable the more i think about it, but this would need play testing as I am still a bit unsure about it but I will try a game or 3 this way to see for myself.

HQ's are all 0-1 and always were, so the HQ issue has never been there.

where fliers are concerned they are covered by the rule that says nothing can deep strike or come in from reserves.

So that is all I got for the current range of questions, if I missed one please let me know.

anyway, here are the rules as I have come up with so far:

• Patrols are no more than 400 points.
• You must have one Troop choice.
• Each codex entry counts as one unit choice outside of dedicated transports, such as Imperial Guard infantry squads or heavy weapons squads.
• You may have one HQ choice, but no more than one.
• You may spend remaining points on anything in the Codex.
• You are restricted to 2 entries maximum from each, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.
• No character can have more than 2 Wounds.
• No model can have more than 3 Wounds.
• No special characters.
• All non-vehicle models are considered scoring.
• No 2+ saves.
• No vehicles with a total Armor value greater than 33.
• No vehicles with a total modified Armor value greater than 33.
• No models can deep strike or be held in reserves.
• Warlord traits are not used. But an overall commander must be chosen, if an HQ choice is not made command defaults to the model with the highest leadership, if this is a draw, just pick one of these models to use.

Battles are played on a 2x4 playfield with opponents arrayed opposite each other with a 12 inch deployment zone each.
Roll a d6 for mission:
• 1-2 is all out annihilation
o One dead unit is one victory point, they player with the most victory points at the end wins.

• 3-4 is capture the flag
o Each team attempts to grab the opponents flag and bring it back to their own deployment zone, the flag is set up in the very center on the forward line of each deployment zone. The flag is carried just like a relic in the BRB. Upon scoring the flag that reached the deployment zone is replaced and game play continues.

• 5-6 is relic in the center
o Each team must attempt to bring the relic (which is deployed dead center) back to their board edge. The relic moves just as it would in the BRB.

• 1: Annihlation
o One dead unit is one victory point, they player with the most victory points at the end wins.
o Ties are broken by whoever has more non-fleeing units in the enemy deployment zone.
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

• 2: King of the Hill
o There is a single objective in the center of the board whoever controls this at the end of the game wins.
o Ties are broken by having more scoring units within range of the objective than your opponent, in the event that this still leads to a tie, it is broken by whoever has more non-fleeing units in the enemy deployment zone.
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

• 3: Assassination
o Whoever manages to kill the opposing leader wins the game.
o Ties are broken by whoever has more non-fleeing units in the enemy deployment zone.
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

• 4: capture the flag
o Each team attempts to grab the flag placed in the center and bring it back to their own deployment zone, the flag is set up in the very center of the table. The flag is carried just like a relic in the BRB.Upon scoring the flag is replaced in the center and the game continues as normal.
o Ties are broken by whoever has more non-fleeing units in the enemy deployment zone.
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

• 5: Behind Enemy Lines
o The first player to have a scoring unit entirely in their opponents deployment zone and touch his table edge wins the scenario
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

• 6: Red vs.Blue
o Each Player has an Objective in the center of their deployment zone that is about the size of a Space Marine. To win each player must destroy their opponents objective.
o The objective has the following stats: Toughness: 4, Wounds: 3, Armour Save: 5+
o Complete victory; if your opponent has no models left on the table not falling back you win.

@ chaplaincliff. I like it alot

I have a copy of the current rules you all can print off if you wish. It can be found here.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Except, as I already said, that restriction actually makes some armies LESS fluffy. The standard chain of command HQ for an IG army is the CCS, which has a 3-wound model. The only two-wound HQs are specialist advisors that would only be present in a larger battle (where they would be assisting the CCS). A patrol led by a primaris psyker would be completely un-fluffy.

Or....because it's such a small force, it could easily be "fluffy" that the Sergeant of one of the squads is an NCO in charge of a scouting force, validating why you don't necessarily have to take an HQ. Not that big a deal to work around.

A 400 point infantry platoon given the order to scout/clear/fortify/secure an area before the rest of the force arrives? A platoon commander would very much suffice in that army size as the commanding officer. But now I'm just intrigued by a 400 point force of cultists with a dark apostle.

As mentioned - it worked fine in the tournament I played in that any models with more than 2 Wounds were capped at 2 Wounds - so you could take any relevant HQ - just had less Wounds than normal.

Same with 2+ saves = they become 3+ saves - Simples and removes the restrictions on some forces.

 Mr Morden wrote:
As mentioned - it worked fine in the tournament I played in that any models with more than 2 Wounds were capped at 2 Wounds - so you could take any relevant HQ - just had less Wounds than normal.

Same with 2+ saves = they become 3+ saves - Simples and removes the restrictions on some forces.

the problem you will run into with this is characters that have super invulnerable saves, so maybe we should make it nothing better than a 5+ invulnerable as well, that and the units abilities, many of the units out there with a 2+ save has other abilities or options that can make them a bit to powerful for this type of scenario.

models or units like terminators have no place in this game, as well as obliterators, or vindicators, keep in mind the restrictions are meant to make it feel more like a forward scouting force, not anywhere near a larger detachment.

 chaplaincliff wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
As mentioned - it worked fine in the tournament I played in that any models with more than 2 Wounds were capped at 2 Wounds - so you could take any relevant HQ - just had less Wounds than normal.

Same with 2+ saves = they become 3+ saves - Simples and removes the restrictions on some forces.

the problem you will run into with this is characters that have super invulnerable saves, so maybe we should make it nothing better than a 5+ invulnerable as well, that and the units abilities, many of the units out there with a 2+ save has other abilities or options that can make them a bit to powerful for this type of scenario.

models or units like terminators have no place in this game, as well as obliterators, or vindicators, keep in mind the restrictions are meant to make it feel more like a forward scouting force, not anywhere near a larger detachment.

Not sure - even the best protected unit in the game can only ever have 2 wounds and a 3+ Armour save / invulnerable? You are also paying their normal cost for basically a Wraith with a few extra abilities in most cases...... If you bring say Mephiston - then he's got 2 wounds a just a 3+ armour save - don't rate his chances. Note that even cover saves could never get better than 3+.

Terminators etc are costly seeing as they can die on a 1 or a 2 now..... so basically only slightly better in terms of firepower than a normal Marine and with a 5++ save?

The forces that were on the table tended to be mainly a couple of units of troops plus occasional transport vehicles - I think I had the most with 2 Vehicles and some bikes. The tables were also half normal size so bringing flyers was riskier as you could quite quickly get to your enemy. I killed a marine unit in turn 2 before his flyer could arrive - game over..... so we played again for fun

Nids in a 400 point game will take either only Genestealers, only Hormagaunts, or a Warrior heavy army... Synapse being a double edged sword.

Although 40 Hormagaunts would be interesting...

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As per the original combat patrol, you don't have to take an HQ. The only (main) requirement for Force Organization was/is a Troops unit.

Also, no flyers in my games of CP. Not because the rules don't allow it, but because a player who takes flyers in a Combat patrol game is being a total jerk because of how idiotically well flyers operate versus such small-scale games. Combat patrol games are just meant to be for fun, not an utter domination enabled by the original rules being written in a time when the only flyers were from Forgeworld. CP games are like the 'beer and pretzels' version of 40K.

I once thought of taking a Wave Serpent with my Eldar force, but that even seemed too powerful for the 'spirit' of Combat Mission games, though perfectly legal. I would only do it if my opponent and I were in agreement about taking a vehicle or two as the whole point of that specific game session.

Hell, I was surprised when the original Combat Patrol rules even allowed vehicles at all.

Remember as well that these rules came out in a time when the Flyer rules from the Vehicle Design Rules were deemed to be OP by 90% of players, and from what I know, the flyer rules of nowadays are even better in favor of the flyer.

The entire theme of CP games is a small scouting force that has to make do without being able to bring it's best troops and equipment, and the 3+ wound HQ units are part of that. If you want all the best stuff your army can bring, just play a full game of 40K.........the entire point of Combat Patrol was the restrictions.

Can you imagine the guy who wants to take heldrakes in a combat patrol?

How big a chunk of your 400pts is it if it does not show up till turn 3 or 4? On small tables, the game can be over by then?

I feel like people are missing the fact that you cant have reserves according to the rules.......

Good point

Wolfnid420 wrote:
I feel like people are missing the fact that you cant have reserves according to the rules.......

According to what rules? There are no official rules, so it's kind of silly to state some random player's "no reserves" rule as if it was indisputable fact.

 Peregrine wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:
I feel like people are missing the fact that you cant have reserves according to the rules.......

According to what rules? There are no official rules, so it's kind of silly to state some random player's "no reserves" rule as if it was indisputable fact.

Isn't there official rules in the Battle Missions book GW put out? Or am I thinking something else... EDIT: Also, I have heard there is an official rule set for it written in the 4th Edition BRB (under the title 40k in 40 Minutes) and a White Dwarf issue 274 (which, many people will say that it is official just like the Sisters codex)

The next closest thing to "official" rules are the Adepticon rules (which the post above looks like a copy paste of), but the AC rules have a special rule about fliers and the required reserve.

Even then, with only 400 points on the table some armies might not even find it worth it to reserve anything (up to half the force)

 washout77 wrote:
Isn't there official rules in the Battle Missions book GW put out? Or am I thinking something else...

You're thinking of kill team, the 200 point game where your models are all separate units.

EDIT: Also, I have heard there is an official rule set for it written in the 4th Edition BRB (under the title 40k in 40 Minutes) and a White Dwarf issue 274 (which, many people will say that it is official just like the Sisters codex)

Official when it was published, but now obsolete.

 Peregrine wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Isn't there official rules in the Battle Missions book GW put out? Or am I thinking something else...

You're thinking of kill team, the 200 point game where your models are all separate units.

EDIT: Also, I have heard there is an official rule set for it written in the 4th Edition BRB (under the title 40k in 40 Minutes) and a White Dwarf issue 274 (which, many people will say that it is official just like the Sisters codex)

Official when it was published, but now obsolete.

Yep, Kill Team is what I'm thinking of. Thanks.

And what has made it obsolete? Nothing has come out since then (that I'm aware of) that has made it outdated. If it's because it's from a different edition, wouldn't that make any codex that isn't a 6th codex obsolete and not official? Regardless, I don't feel like getting into this as it's been a long day, it's something to start with. Obviously some things need to change to bring them up to 6th edition standards, and personally I think things should be allowed to reserve, but it's good to remember that there is an official Combat Patrol rule set but it is outdated

I can't think of any reason why the Combat Patrol rules can't be "legally" used with the 6th edition main rules, even if it came out in the 4th edition rulebook. Other than vehicles and their hull points, I honestly can't think of anything that is currently in 6th that would alter how it plays, other than overwatch. It's not like you are using something printed during 2nd edition rules, especially with what you can have in a CP list.. Name something that would differ from 4th to 6th editions about a force of say, two squads of Space Marines and a bike squad.


Hell, if anything, you can now have more models in a 400pt list due to widespread point-drops. Just because something is old doesn't mean it's obsolete, if the rules haven't largely changed. The main problem is when people use a mainstream 40K mindset to play something like Combat Patrol, or Kill Team for that matter.

 Peregrine wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:
I feel like people are missing the fact that you cant have reserves according to the rules.......

According to what rules? There are no official rules, so it's kind of silly to state some random player's "no reserves" rule as if it was indisputable fact.

I thought we just talking abut this set of proposed rules where he has said no reserves / deep strike - its allowed normally

I think that vehicle restrictions for 6th Ed should cap Hull Points instead of AV. 2 sounds like a good number to keep out any really abusive vehicles.