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 warpspider89 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, wraithlord has three wounds, falcon has 3 hull points. Lascannons wound Wraithlords and glance falcons on 3s, the falcon however will have a constant 4+ cover save if do it correctly.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Why flamers instead of their faux-rending weapons?

The range is nearly the same (flame templates are 9" long if I remember correctly) and there have been plenty of time I have taken Wraithlords and people forget that they have flamers and it costs them dearly. Also 2D3 wall of death hits from overwatch.

I'd actually argue that there is something being missed by this argument of falcon vs wl survivability. A falcon at 1 HP has to wait for the end to come essentially. A 1W WL can be hidden from enemy firepower in close combat with things that cannot hope to bring it down; like marines. It's going to win most challenges there too and can insta-gib 3W SM characters. That is a pretty significant boost to survivability.

Some peoe just hate WLs and swear by tanks. Others are the opposite. It is a matter of personal preference largely. A good point was made that if you really want only optimal choices then C:E may be the wrong codex for you.

It's really not just a personal choice, when some things are clearly better than others, unless you are intentionally using weaker units for the purpose of fluff, or theme. It's just that the tanks clearly outclass the Wraithlord. If you prefer a fluffier list, that's fine. The Wraithlords really aren't that competitive. It does not take much firepower to down one at all, and you can get better firepower, for cheaper.

There are many optimal choices in CW:E, just because someone chooses not to use the non-competitive options, does not mean that the codex as a whole is not competitive. I think Eldar are plenty competitive. While anecdotal, I've won every game I've played with them so far. Granted, that's people adjusting to the new rules, including myself, but it is not a weak dex by any means.

 Sasori wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, wraithlord has three wounds, falcon has 3 hull points. Lascannons wound Wraithlords and glance falcons on 3s, the falcon however will have a constant 4+ cover save if do it correctly.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Why flamers instead of their faux-rending weapons?

The range is nearly the same (flame templates are 9" long if I remember correctly) and there have been plenty of time I have taken Wraithlords and people forget that they have flamers and it costs them dearly. Also 2D3 wall of death hits from overwatch.

I'd actually argue that there is something being missed by this argument of falcon vs wl survivability. A falcon at 1 HP has to wait for the end to come essentially. A 1W WL can be hidden from enemy firepower in close combat with things that cannot hope to bring it down; like marines. It's going to win most challenges there too and can insta-gib 3W SM characters. That is a pretty significant boost to survivability.

Some peoe just hate WLs and swear by tanks. Others are the opposite. It is a matter of personal preference largely. A good point was made that if you really want only optimal choices then C:E may be the wrong codex for you.

It's really not just a personal choice, when some things are clearly better than others, unless you are intentionally using weaker units for the purpose of fluff, or theme. It's just that the tanks clearly outclass the Wraithlord. If you prefer a fluffier list, that's fine. The Wraithlords really aren't that competitive. It does not take much firepower to down one at all, and you can get better firepower, for cheaper.

There are many optimal choices in CW:E, just because someone chooses not to use the non-competitive options, does not mean that the codex as a whole is not competitive. I think Eldar are plenty competitive. While anecdotal, I've won every game I've played with them so far. Granted, that's people adjusting to the new rules, including myself, but it is not a weak dex by any means.

I think I've pointed out that they are both competitive in different ways. The fire prism is a better firebase but it is incapable of many of the terrific things that a WL can do. This is eldar of course so it will come down to how they are used in conjunction with everythig else. ofc if uoy do a highly mobile army WL are pure fail. Put them in an army where most, if not al, the targets presented require anti-tank to be dealt with reliably and that's a different story.

 warpspider89 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Put it this way, wraithlord has three wounds, falcon has 3 hull points. Lascannons wound Wraithlords and glance falcons on 3s, the falcon however will have a constant 4+ cover save if do it correctly.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Why flamers instead of their faux-rending weapons?

The range is nearly the same (flame templates are 9" long if I remember correctly) and there have been plenty of time I have taken Wraithlords and people forget that they have flamers and it costs them dearly. Also 2D3 wall of death hits from overwatch.

I'd actually argue that there is something being missed by this argument of falcon vs wl survivability. A falcon at 1 HP has to wait for the end to come essentially. A 1W WL can be hidden from enemy firepower in close combat with things that cannot hope to bring it down; like marines. It's going to win most challenges there too and can insta-gib 3W SM characters. That is a pretty significant boost to survivability.

Some peoe just hate WLs and swear by tanks. Others are the opposite. It is a matter of personal preference largely. A good point was made that if you really want only optimal choices then C:E may be the wrong codex for you.

It's really not just a personal choice, when some things are clearly better than others, unless you are intentionally using weaker units for the purpose of fluff, or theme. It's just that the tanks clearly outclass the Wraithlord. If you prefer a fluffier list, that's fine. The Wraithlords really aren't that competitive. It does not take much firepower to down one at all, and you can get better firepower, for cheaper.

There are many optimal choices in CW:E, just because someone chooses not to use the non-competitive options, does not mean that the codex as a whole is not competitive. I think Eldar are plenty competitive. While anecdotal, I've won every game I've played with them so far. Granted, that's people adjusting to the new rules, including myself, but it is not a weak dex by any means.

I think I've pointed out that they are both competitive in different ways. The fire prism is a better firebase but it is incapable of many of the terrific things that a WL can do. This is eldar of course so it will come down to how they are used in conjunction with everythig else. ofc if uoy do a highly mobile army WL are pure fail. Put them in an army where most, if not al, the targets presented require anti-tank to be dealt with reliably and that's a different story.

The Wraithlord does nothing well, that can't be done better elsewhere in the codex. He is outclassed, in shooting, mobility, cc and cost. It is also exceptionally easy to kill.

The Wraithlord is just not competitive, period.

 Sasori wrote:

The Wraithlord does nothing well, that can't be done better elsewhere in the codex. He is outclassed, in shooting, mobility, cc and cost. It is also exceptionally easy to kill.

The Wraithlord is just not competitive, period.

And as everyone has established, neither of you is going to get the other to change their opinion by barking the same words at each other over and over. So let's get back to the original topic, which was what the preferred loadout for a WL is. Not whether to take a WL, or whether you're a bad player for doing so.

PleaseDontExplode wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The Wraithlord does nothing well, that can't be done better elsewhere in the codex. He is outclassed, in shooting, mobility, cc and cost. It is also exceptionally easy to kill.

The Wraithlord is just not competitive, period.

And as everyone has established, neither of you is going to get the other to change their opinion by barking the same words at each other over and over. So let's get back to the original topic, which was what the preferred loadout for a WL is. Not whether to take a WL, or whether you're a bad player for doing so.

Discussing the merits of the unit, is well within the scope of the topic, as the best loadout for one, could not be taking it all.

 Sasori wrote:

PleaseDontExplode wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The Wraithlord does nothing well, that can't be done better elsewhere in the codex. He is outclassed, in shooting, mobility, cc and cost. It is also exceptionally easy to kill.

The Wraithlord is just not competitive, period.

And as everyone has established, neither of you is going to get the other to change their opinion by barking the same words at each other over and over. So let's get back to the original topic, which was what the preferred loadout for a WL is. Not whether to take a WL, or whether you're a bad player for doing so.

Discussing the merits of the unit, is well within the scope of the topic, as the best loadout for one, could not be taking it all.

Actually no, because the question assumes that the WL is already being taken. Ignore that assumption and the question has been ignored.

I recommend double BL. It provides strong AV shooting.

 warpspider89 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PleaseDontExplode wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

The Wraithlord does nothing well, that can't be done better elsewhere in the codex. He is outclassed, in shooting, mobility, cc and cost. It is also exceptionally easy to kill.

The Wraithlord is just not competitive, period.

And as everyone has established, neither of you is going to get the other to change their opinion by barking the same words at each other over and over. So let's get back to the original topic, which was what the preferred loadout for a WL is. Not whether to take a WL, or whether you're a bad player for doing so.

Discussing the merits of the unit, is well within the scope of the topic, as the best loadout for one, could not be taking it all.

Actually no, because the question assumes that the WL is already being taken. Ignore that assumption and the question has been ignored.

I recommend double BL. It provides strong AV shooting.

Perhaps you should read the rest of the OP. Here, I'll quote it for you.

What are the best loadouts? Please share any and all experience!

I even put the emphasis there, so you could understand it.

In *MY* experience, you are best not taking one, as there are much better options for the firepower.

For instance, you could have have 2 Warwalkers, with two brightlances each, for 20 points less than the Brightlance Wraithlord. That's double the firepower, for cheaper.

Okay, knock it off. You're both off-topic, and getting very close to taking a vacation to cool down.

I've been using a Wraithlord in my new dex lists (used 2 in my old Seer Council build, so I wanted to give them a shot). Thus far, I have found the Wraithlord solidly mediocre. It draws fire, but goes down easier than one may expect. However, it isn't a bad platform for 2x Brightlances. Additionally, it can work as counter attack and for the dual flamers.

It fills a role in my particular list, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone. They don't have much place in a mech build, which I imagine will be the predominant list.

Iyanden codex.

Wraith lord goooood!!!

Take the gem that heals on 3+

Take lots of spirit seers who get renewal and dole out ghetto twin link.

Furthermore you are not looking at all the bennies and cons of av12 holofield vs lords.

Av12 holofield
Pro
Av12 is the same as T8 vs weapon str
Immune to poison
Sacrifice shooting to move farther.
4+ cover save

Cons
No melee
Can be penned
- explodes
- can be stunned/shaken
- can be immobilized
Weak point on rear
Cannot overwatch
Melta (keyword)
Lance (keyword)
Haywire
Gauss


Lords
Pros
3+ armor
Can melee very well
Character
Flamers
Overwatch(see delicious flamers)
benefits from spirit sight (if its taken)
Can "hide" in melee (see con on tar pit as well)
Can be HEALED see renewal and iyanden relic

Cons
Slowest unit in eldar codex that wants to melee (no battle focus)
Poison (you get your armor save though) so 9 poison wounds to kill it, which they need to hit and roll the poison wound so that is a lot of shots!
Instant death weapons (force weapons or even other eldar distort weapons)
Slowed by terrain
Can be tar pitted


CODEX COMMENT

Neither are better stand alone but allow for more army builds than before their are now more options.

Footdar
Mechdar
ZILLADAR

 Sasori wrote:

Belly wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Belly wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Yeah, and a Falcon can't be killed from a round of poison.

You can't just pull one example, and treat as fact. There are a lot of factors into looking into both of them being resilient.

Very true, falcons also have to worry about Meltas, krak missiles, lance weapons, railguns, plasmaguns, and any sort of powerfist/powerclaw. Wraithlords on the other hand need to worry about all those weapons out there that ignore toughness. With the huge amount of Dark Eldar and Kroot Snipers running around, I certainly see your point.

And Wraithlords don't have to worry about those weapons as well? There is a reason no one has taken Wraithlords. I'll give you a hint, it's because they are not resilient at all.

Yeah, Don't forget Deathmarks, rangers. You've also got all those weapons you've mentioned, where Wraithlords tend to be just as vulnerable to as well.

That's not even counting the melee poison.

Wraithlords have, and will continue to be taken by Eldar players. In the previous codex they were (next to war walkers) one of the most popular and consistent performers with their BS4. They remain just as good, having only lost 2 points on strength and made a couple of small gains. If you really don't believe Wraithlords are resilient at T8, i've not any idea what you're on about. The point I was attempting to make is that a falcon can, and routinely does get felled to a single shot. Against a wraithlord, it'll take a minimum 3 shots to down him, and rolling more dice is always better.

Falcons are a terrible choice. By taking one, you're wasting a heavy support slot on something that is easily outclassed by the codex's dedicated transport.

Wraithlords have almost NEVER been taken by competitive players, in tournaments. And if they, they haven't placed. in 4th Edition, which was the last Eldar codex, Falcons were taken solely as the HS choice. In 5th Edition, this changed to Warwalkers/Fire Prisms, as mech was king. Wraithlords may have been seen in friendly games, but not in any serious tournament list.

T8 and 3W is not that resilient, and is in fact very close to being equal to a falcon, with 3 HP. The big difference, is the Falcon can almost always maintain a 4+ cover save, while the Wraithlord will be limited to a 5+ most of the time.

Yes, Falcons have a chance to get blown up by one shot, but they are actually quite a bit more resilient to some weapons, thanks to the 4+ cover save, than Wraithlords. Krakmissles are a good example of this, with an average volly taking off only a single hullpoint of a Falcon, while doing 2W to a wraithlord. The Wraithlord is also vulnerable to more types of weapons, than Falcons.

I also never said I would take Falcons, did I? If you would have read my position on the Heavy support slot, you would know that I am for Fire Prisms, and have included them in the list I wrote.

The ATC 2011 best general used 2 lords in his list. Our team took 3rd overall and he won best general in a field including most of America's ETC team and the BolS/wrecking crew guys.

You should refrain from using absolutes like "nobody ever does this" becuse chances are you're wrong. In a game where meta changes from city to city, blanket statements like that are rarely correct.

The ATC 2011 best general used 2 lords in his list. Our team took 3rd overall and he won best general in a field including most of America's ETC team and the BolS/wrecking crew guys.

You should refrain from using absolutes like "nobody ever does this" becuse chances are you're wrong. In a game where meta changes from city to city, blanket statements like that are rarely correct.

Do you have a link to the results? I'm having trouble finding them, from two years ago.

You're right, I shouldn't deal with absolutes, I'm sure there will always be some tourney, somewhere that will prove me wrong.

Wow this thread went some odd direction. I was really only concerned with their weaponry, not validity.

But I do plan on using Wraithlords despite them not being the 'best' choice. Like I said, the model is fantastic so I'm gonna use em.

yeah I went through the thread looking for the loadout so I can finish assembling my wl. Two brightlances and sword? or brightlance + scatter laser and flamer?

 ashikenshin wrote:
yeah I went through the thread looking for the loadout so I can finish assembling my wl. Two brightlances and sword? or brightlance + scatter laser and flamer?

Yeah I'm thinking scatter laser+starcannon+ghostglave+flamers.
If not, just replace the scatter laser and starcannon with lances Depending on the rest of the list.

With WS being able to put out a lot of dakka I'm leaning towards the lances.

 ashikenshin wrote:
yeah I went through the thread looking for the loadout so I can finish assembling my wl. Two brightlances and sword? or brightlance + scatter laser and flamer?

I'd only bother with the sword under certain conditions. +1 S to 9, vs. S8, isn't a big deal most of the time. However, if you can give the WL FC, which I think the new supplement makes possible, then on the charge that's S10! Definitely worthwhile to consider then.

astro_nomicon wrote:
^^Thanks for doing the math amigo.

Scatter laser/Star Cannon was my gut feeling, and you have confirmed. I think the sword is worth taking for the extra strength and havin sp2 without using smash attack. Advance to mid field shooting and assault anything that gets close

Smash gives a model AP2 regardless of whether or not the weapon says so, even without using the special Smash attacks.

Theorius wrote:
Iyanden codex.

Wraith lord goooood!!!

Take the gem that heals on 3+

Take lots of spirit seers who get renewal and dole out ghetto twin link.

Yes the Iyanden Supplement is what you want if you are going to run a wraith army. It simply does too many amazing things for wraith armies including giving them Battle focus in abundance. If I were to run any wraith, this would definitely be the way to do it.

 Sasori wrote:

The ATC 2011 best general used 2 lords in his list. Our team took 3rd overall and he won best general in a field including most of America's ETC team and the BolS/wrecking crew guys.

You should refrain from using absolutes like "nobody ever does this" becuse chances are you're wrong. In a game where meta changes from city to city, blanket statements like that are rarely correct.

Do you have a link to the results? I'm having trouble finding them, from two years ago.

You're right, I shouldn't deal with absolutes, I'm sure there will always be some tourney, somewhere that will prove me wrong.

Sorry.. 1 'lord.

Results are here : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/337917.page

And here's an article (keep in mind it was 5th ed and mech/msu meta) I wrote after the event.
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2011/06/balance-flexibility-and-meta.html

 warpspider89 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
yeah I went through the thread looking for the loadout so I can finish assembling my wl. Two brightlances and sword? or brightlance + scatter laser and flamer?

I'd only bother with the sword under certain conditions. +1 S to 9, vs. S8, isn't a big deal most of the time. However, if you can give the WL FC, which I think the new supplement makes possible, then on the charge that's S10! Definitely worthwhile to consider then.

The Reroll a missed hit, is the big benefit of the Sword, over the +1 strength. Being able to reroll a single missed hit in CC every round, is worth 5 points.

S10 on the charge for four attacks, plus HoW, is nothing to scoff at for 5 points & a primaris ^.^

One use it can have, being a character, is to take 2 starcanons and hope for a 6. Then you can kill the special/heavy weapon, or take your chance againt the sergent.

Not super efficient, but can be usefull.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Wow this thread went some odd direction. I was really only concerned with their weaponry, not validity.

But I do plan on using Wraithlords despite them not being the 'best' choice. Like I said, the model is fantastic so I'm gonna use em.

This happen every 'how to best use unit X' thead. You'll get told to not take unit X at all,because you should take unit Y instead. It's a bit annoying.

 ashikenshin wrote:
yeah I went through the thread looking for the loadout so I can finish assembling my wl. Two brightlances and sword? or brightlance + scatter laser and flamer?

From a tactical standpoint, there are a lot of options.

From a modeling one, there is only one: Magnets.

For like $1 in parts, you can have any option you need. I can't stress enough, magnetize early, and magnetize often. Even if it seems that there is only one valid option, as the meta shifts others may become more viable. Or even longer term, as editions of the core rules and codexes change, so do units and what's useful. A small investment now will keep your expensive models from being dust collectors later. As someone who is dusting off his old 2nd ed Eldar, I'm regretting some of the choices I made back them and figuring out how to work with what I have.

Poster/sticky tac can be used in place of magnets in some cases.

This ends my P&M interlude, now back to the tactics...

One thing about the WL, is like the tanks, you can gear it for a number of roles. What do you need done in your army?

 warpspider89 wrote:
A ton? You can only use one grenade/model/turn in combat lol and those grenades hit on a 4+, wound on a 6+, and are ignored on a 3+. Since the character just denied that means a whole 9 are getting thrown by a tac squad, if the WL somehow failed to kill any with its shooting and HoW, which is highly unlikely. Power weapons are, like in the example case, generally one he sergeant - who you just described as denying th challenge. So much for that.

You said Marines had "no hope" against a Wraithlord. They have hope. Tactical squads are pretty terrible in close combat. They're a shooting unit, not a combat unit.

Grey Hunters however, like I run, are a little better off. Having Power Weapons and Rending attacks that aren't on a Character help a lot, as do dedicated MC hunters like Lone Wolves.

Blood Angels you shouldn't get the charge on if we're honest. Grey Knights obviously are their own story. Not sure about Black Templar in 6E as the BT regular effectively retired near the end of 5E. Dark Angels are in the same boat as vanilla Space Marines with their Tactical Squad; DW/RW of course are different stories as well.

So sorry for attacking your sweeping generalization

 warpspider89 wrote:
And! Lets say that this squad does use "our weapons are useless". They use that in the assault phase. That means the Eldar player just was given exactly what he/she/it wanted AND you just gave them free movement from a d6 of consolidation. Good job setting the WL up for more easy kills and another easy hiding. Now that is falling for Eldar trickery.

D6". So 3" on average. Yea, you aren't likely to be hiding any time soon and you aren't locked in combat on the enemy player's shooting phase. Which is why you would want to fall back. Typically when you assault a unit you don't want to wipe it immediately, you want to stay in a round so you can do stuff on your own turn.

Wraithlord seems awesome unit but with no Inv he'll get killed quickly with stuff like ML's or plasma weapons.

And with same prize (maybe 20-40p more) you could get Wraithguard/Wraithblade unit of five.

Which one do you prefer?

 Red Viper wrote:
If I take WLs, it's going to be with Dual Lances.

The Wave Serpents provide all the medium dakka I need. WLs are there for the rare AV 13+ target. If there are no such targets, I'll just run them at my enemy. Dual flamers and the cheap sword make him a nasty threat in assault.

I liked dual lances until I compared it to dual H. Wraithcannons on a knight.
Two knights run you the same as three lance lords and have more wounds. Kiling power seems similar overall.