Sanguinor's Blessing

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**Happyjew**

I voted no. I don't oft agree with DR (actually maybe I do, I don't pay much attention to these half the times), but as he stated, the rules for the older codex referring to "your army" by context refers to an army specifically of that codex i.e. a Blood Angels army.

**Jimsolo**

Okay, if these special abilities only affect units from the army they come from, why were FAQs needed at all to restrict some of them? Several abilities (again, I reiterate this, because it is the part that is most mystifying to me) including one on the Sanguinor himself, have been FAQ'ed to only apply to their Codex. If the intent is for the abilities to only apply to the army of origin, then why would these FAQs be needed? And if the FAQ has addressed one ability but not the other, how are people coming to the conclusion that BOTH should be restricted?

I'll play this however my opponent wants, but I'm just absolutely flabbergasted by what I'm reading here.

**DeathReaper**

Jimsolo wrote:
Okay, if these special abilities only affect units from the army they come from, why were FAQs needed at all to restrict some of them? Several abilities (again, I reiterate this, because it is the part that is most mystifying to me) including one on the Sanguinor himself, have been FAQ'ed to only apply to their Codex. If the intent is for the abilities to only apply to the army of origin, then why would these FAQs be needed? And if the FAQ has addressed one ability but not the other, how are people coming to the conclusion that BOTH should be restricted?

I'll play this however my opponent wants, but I'm just absolutely flabbergasted by what I'm reading here.

Probably because there were several questions about them.

They sometimes answer questions in the FaQ that are fairly clear in the rules.

Such as this one:
"Q: In a multiple combat, if one of the two enemy units is wiped out,
are any excess unsaved Wounds transferred to the second unit?
(p28)
A: No."

The rules clearly define the interaction of a multiple combat, where you attack one unit or the other.

Also:"Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No."

Clearly the FNP rules state that it can not be taken against wounds that cause ID.

Not sure why either of these were FaQ'd the only insight I had was that many people asked these questions and as such became Frequently Asked Questions.

**Kommissar Kel**

I will go back, read the thread and edit this response to adress given points; But I must say no.

Allow me to answer why:

Blood Angels is a Rellic codex, as such when it was written the only "Sergeant" available was one within its own codex.

Now if we follow the letter of the rule, no model at all will benefit because there is no model named "Sergeant".

That is silly.

But While we can take the context/intent and extrapolate it from the core of the rule we can assume that they are referring to Tactical, assault, Terminator, devastator, and scout sergeants. but while we are extrapolating that we can also extrapolate a post script of "from Codex: Blood Angels".

I know these are not hard rules, but the hard rules give us no models to nominate.

**chrisj725**

I've gone for yes, new 6th codexs are making it very clear what effects all allies and what effects just your own codex units. Older codexs are naturally murkier.

I think obviously it has to be something that is termed a sergent, but if you're blood angels and you have a detachment of ultramarines, I think as it stands you'd be able to give it to them too. Also as they've put in errata for similar rules but not this, as it stands I'd say you can.

**DeathReaper**

chrisj725 wrote:
I've gone for yes, new 6th codexs are making it very clear what effects all allies and what effects just your own codex units. Older codexs are naturally murkier.

I think obviously it has to be something that is termed a sergent, but if you're blood angels and you have a detachment of ultramarines, I think as it stands you'd be able to give it to them too. Also as they've put in errata for similar rules but not this, as it stands I'd say you can.

You can if you ignore the context of the Rule.

But following context it is only for Blood Angel Sergeants.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
chrisj725 wrote:
I've gone for yes, new 6th codexs are making it very clear what effects all allies and what effects just your own codex units. Older codexs are naturally murkier.

I think obviously it has to be something that is termed a sergent, but if you're blood angels and you have a detachment of ultramarines, I think as it stands you'd be able to give it to them too. Also as they've put in errata for similar rules but not this, as it stands I'd say you can.

You can if you ignore the context of the Rule.

But following context it is only for Blood Angel Sergeants.

Only if you use a flawed definition of "your army"

Let's face it, there are FAQ's that stop stuff like this from happening, even erratas, however this one slips though.

**Kommissar Kel**

OK James we will use the definition of : The Army I own.

How Many "Sergeants" do you have in your army? I own several armies and not 1 "Sergeant"(Like all BA Players), does that mean I can never benefit from Sanguinor's Blessing?

**DeathReaper**

Not flawed.

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

Proof of what army means in the context of the Blood Angels book.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
Not flawed.

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

Proof of what army means in the context of the Blood Angels book.

That's a blood angels army list, ok. That is nice and all, however "Your Army" also includes any allies. IIRC his rule states your army, not your BA side, not your primary/secondary, etc.

Again, look at the FAQ's. They've clearly spelled out cases they didn't want it to apply to whilst leaving others open.

**DeathReaper**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Not flawed.

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

Proof of what army means in the context of the Blood Angels book.

That's a blood angels army list, ok. That is nice and all, however "Your Army" also includes any allies. IIRC his rule states your army, not your BA side, not your primary/secondary, etc.

Again, look at the FAQ's. They've clearly spelled out cases they didn't want it to apply to whilst leaving others open.

It does state your army for the Sanguinor's rule, but what does that mean?

In context that means any model from the blood Angels codex.

Remember the BA codex says "All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined. it clearly states the army, and in context that means from the blood angel army list.

As far as the BA codex is concerned, "the army" is "The Blood Angels army list" which is "split into five sections" and "All of the squads, vehicles and characters" " are placed into one of these sections"

Do not ignore the context of the BA codex and what it defines as "the army"

**Peregrine**

DeathReaper wrote:
In context that means any model from the blood Angels codex.

No it doesn't. Let's look at another example:

Chapter Tactics: If you include He'stan then all units in your
army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all
thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted,
and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas
count as twin-linked.

GW had to CHANGE this rule through errata to make it apply only to the C:SM detachment instead of your entire army, allies included. RAW/RAI wasn't sufficient to limit it to just your C:SM, and an FAQ wasn't sufficient. The rule text had to change to get the intended result. Therefore we can conclude that any rule with the original "in your army" wording applies to your entire army until/unless it receives a similar change.

**Drager**

DeathReaper wrote:
Drager wrote:
I find nowhere in the book that defines army. I find an entry defining blood angels army. I may have missed the definition though and will take another look.

How can I be incorrect as to what I find convincing?

Surely I must know whether I find an argument convincing and my expressed opinion thereon is definitive, unless you assume I am deceiving you on that point.

You not finding it convincing does not mean that the definition is not there. I will spell it out for you.

Quotes from the Blood Angel Codex:
"This section of the book details the forces used by the blood Angels... Each entry describes the unit and gives specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers for these entries." (23)
"The models in a Blood Angels army use a number of special rules... If a special rule is not explained on this page or in the relevant entry, it can be found in the main WH40K rulebook."(23)

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

That is not a definition of the word army. I will accept it is a definition of blood angels army. You still have not convinced me you are correct.

You being convinced of it does not mean that the definition is there.

**DeathReaper**

Drager wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
I will spell it out for you.

Quotes from the Blood Angel Codex:
"This section of the book details the forces used by the blood Angels... Each entry describes the unit and gives specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers for these entries." (23)
"The models in a Blood Angels army use a number of special rules... If a special rule is not explained on this page or in the relevant entry, it can be found in the main WH40K rulebook."(23)

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

That is not a definition of the word army. I will accept it is a definition of blood angels army. You still have not convinced me you are correct.

You being convinced of it does not mean that the definition is there.

How is " All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81) Not a definition of army?

In context Blood Angels army list = army as far as the Blood Angels book is concerned.

Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
In context that means any model from the blood Angels codex.

No it doesn't. Let's look at another example:

Chapter Tactics: If you include He'stan then all units in your
army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all
thunder hammers in your army will count as master-crafted,
and all flamers, heavy flamer, meltaguns and multimeltas
count as twin-linked.

GW had to CHANGE this rule through errata to make it apply only to the C:SM detachment instead of your entire army, allies included. RAW/RAI wasn't sufficient to limit it to just your C:SM, and an FAQ wasn't sufficient. The rule text had to change to get the intended result. Therefore we can conclude that any rule with the original "in your army" wording applies to your entire army until/unless it receives a similar change.

The rule text did not have to change. Not at all.

The change of the wording, which of course they really did not have to do as "Your army" is noted as forces from the Space marine army list. in the context of the Codex Space Marines.

Context is important.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Not flawed.

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.

Proof of what army means in the context of the Blood Angels book.

That's a blood angels army list, ok. That is nice and all, however "Your Army" also includes any allies. IIRC his rule states your army, not your BA side, not your primary/secondary, etc.

Again, look at the FAQ's. They've clearly spelled out cases they didn't want it to apply to whilst leaving others open.

It does state your army for the Sanguinor's rule, but what does that mean?

In context that means any model from the blood Angels codex.

Remember the BA codex says "All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined. it clearly states the army, and in context that means from the blood angel army list.

As far as the BA codex is concerned, "the army" is "The Blood Angels army list" which is "split into five sections" and "All of the squads, vehicles and characters" " are placed into one of these sections"

Do not ignore the context of the BA codex and what it defines as "the army"

You must be confused, I said "Your army" as that's what the rules suggest. You're trying to fit the square peg (The Army) into the Round hole (your army) it doesn't fit in any context.

Look to the FAQ's/Erratas again. You'll see what GW has done to change the ones they would like to effect "your army" vs the ones they would not.

As far as the BA codex is concerned does not apply as it was written pre 6th when you could not have allies. So stop already with this context junk, it's wrong as much here as it is in the DP smash thread.

**DeathReaper**

Your army, in the context of the Blood Angels Codex means models from the blood angel army list.

The army = your army.

**Peregrine**

DeathReaper wrote:
Your army, in the context of the Blood Angels Codex means models from the blood angel army list.

And you have yet to cite any rules that say that this is anything more than your own invention. Meanwhile GW has felt the need to change similar rules to restrict them to a single detachment, since the previous version would have given the benefits to allied units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:
The rule text did not have to change. Not at all.

Except it did, because GW changed it:

Change the first sentence to read “If you include Vulkan
He’stan in your army then all friendly units chosen from Codex:
Space Marines lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all
thunder hammers carried by friendly models from Codex: Space
Marines gain the Master Crafted special rule and all flamers,
heavy flamers, meltaguns and multimeltas carried by friendly
models from Codex: Space Marines have the Twin-Linked special
rule”.

The change of the wording, which of course they really did not have to do as "Your army" is noted as forces from the Space marine army list. in the context of the Codex Space Marines.

So why didn't they just do it with an FAQ? Why did it need errata instead of a simple "no, you can't use this with allies"?

**DeathReaper**

Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Your army, in the context of the Blood Angels Codex means models from the blood angel army list.

And you have yet to cite any rules that say that this is anything more than your own invention. Meanwhile GW has felt the need to change similar rules to restrict them to a single detachment, since the previous version would have given the benefits to allied units.

Did you read my post:

DeathReaper wrote:
This one click my name to see it

That post has the rules you are looking for.

Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
The rule text did not have to change. Not at all.

Except it did, because GW changed it:

Yes they changed it, totally unneeded, but they did change the wording.

**Peregrine**

DeathReaper wrote:
That post has the rules you are looking for.

No it doesn't, it has some random other rules which happen to use "the army" in a different context.

Yes they changed it, totally unneeded, but they did change the wording.

Unneeded according to you. Very needed according to GW and a lot of other people.

**DeathReaper**

Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
That post has the rules you are looking for.

No it doesn't, it has some random other rules which happen to use "the army" in a different context.

You clearly must not have understood the quotes. But i have more:

"Before you choose an army [you do some stuff] then you can proceed to pick your army" (81)

The BA codex says "All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

"The following army list enables you to field a Blood Angels army..." (81)

"Each entry in the army list represents a different unit..." (81)

The army = you choosing an army = your army.

**Peregrine**

DeathReaper wrote:
The army = you choosing an army = your army.

That's how it was in 5th. Things work differently in 6th, and "your army" includes allies. That's why GW had to errata a bunch of abilities to change "your army" to "things in your army chosen from X codex".

**DeathReaper**

Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
The army = you choosing an army = your army.

That's how it was in 5th. Things work differently in 6th, and "your army" includes allies. That's why GW had to errata a bunch of abilities to change "your army" to "things in your army chosen from X codex".

Right the definition of army is now twofold.

But the context of 'your army' as it appears in the BA Codex means units chosen from Codex Blood Angels.

Do not ignore the context.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
The army = you choosing an army = your army.

That's how it was in 5th. Things work differently in 6th, and "your army" includes allies. That's why GW had to errata a bunch of abilities to change "your army" to "things in your army chosen from X codex".

Right the definition of army is now twofold.

But the context of 'your army' as it appears in the BA Codex means units chosen from Codex Blood Angels.

Do not ignore the context.

I'm not ignoring Context. I'm also not putting words where they actually aren't.

Your Army is not stated in Codex:BA, a BA army is, however that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for what makes up "Your Army" Which is both Primary and Secondarys.

**DeathReaper**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
The army = you choosing an army = your army.

That's how it was in 5th. Things work differently in 6th, and "your army" includes allies. That's why GW had to errata a bunch of abilities to change "your army" to "things in your army chosen from X codex".

Right the definition of army is now twofold.

But the context of 'your army' as it appears in the BA Codex means units chosen from Codex Blood Angels.

Do not ignore the context.

I'm not ignoring Context. I'm also not putting words where they actually aren't.

Your Army is not stated in Codex:BA, a BA army is, however that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for what makes up "Your Army" Which is both Primary and Secondarys.

Except 'your army' is stated in Codex:BA.

"Before you choose an army [you do some stuff] then you can proceed to pick your army" (81)

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
The army = you choosing an army = your army.

That's how it was in 5th. Things work differently in 6th, and "your army" includes allies. That's why GW had to errata a bunch of abilities to change "your army" to "things in your army chosen from X codex".

Right the definition of army is now twofold.

But the context of 'your army' as it appears in the BA Codex means units chosen from Codex Blood Angels.

Do not ignore the context.

I'm not ignoring Context. I'm also not putting words where they actually aren't.

Your Army is not stated in Codex:BA, a BA army is, however that's not what we're looking for. We're looking for what makes up "Your Army" Which is both Primary and Secondarys.

Except 'your army' is stated in Codex:BA.

"Before you choose an army [you do some stuff] then you can proceed to pick your army" (81)

Which is funny, as that line you just quoted would include any and all allies.

**DeathReaper**

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Which is funny, as that line you just quoted would include any and all allies.

Only if you ignore the context.

**Tactical_Genius**

DeathReaper wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Which is funny, as that line you just quoted would include any and all allies.

Only if you ignore the context.

If you follow the logic of an outdated codex you will end up with an army that may never take allies.

**DeathReaper**

Except that the BRB explicitly replaces the force org chart in the older codexes.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
Except that the BRB explicitly replaces the force org chart in the older codexes.

They sure did, also worth noting. It's right after that part, which includes allies. Which is reading with the proper context.

I send you to the line before. Wait, what. That's where I would spend points on allies on my army? Awesome!! Yay context!

**DeathReaper**

That still does not alter the context of the Sanguinor's rule.

The Sanguinor's rule is clearly not referencing allied units.