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The Sanguinor's Blessing rule says that it affect a random sergeant. Obviously character special rules never apply to Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies (read: enemies), but are your allied Battle Brother sergeants included in the lottery for this? While the Sanguinor's Aura of Fervor ability has been FAQ'ed to affect only Blood Angels, there seems to be no such errata in regards to this particular rule. I just wanted to get some assurance before I put him into the unit of allies I'm going to be fielding with my Space Marines.

Edit: Added a poll. Now I'm curious what people think. I've also quoted the rule to add clarity.

Blood Angels codex wrote:When your force is deployed, randomly choose one sergeant in your army to receive the sacred blessing of the Sanguinor...

Adding a caveat to this. If you're going to vote, please explain your decision.

I believe it's primary force rules affect primary force units (or so the faqs have been going). Vulkan's rule doesn't twinlink all flamers on the field, and the ork kff doesn't screen tau allies. Unless you think it also gives enemy units in 6" cover...

I agree that most of the FAQ's have added language to clarify what abilities affect what models. That's what makes this situation so irritating. Not only has this Codex already been FAQ'ed, with appropriate language added to several rules to clarify this issue, but another rule on this very MODEL has been FAQ'ed to that effect. The rule in question, however, has not.

Kustom Force Fields are a tricky issue, so I will avoid getting into that one. (There is some issue with the language of the FAQ changing or somesuch...there's a big thread on it but I didn't really get into it.)

Let's take Locator Beacons as another good example, though. A Tau unit arriving by Deep Strike cannot benefit from a Blood Angels locator beacon, (because it specifies that it only affects friendly units) but they most certainly CAN benefit from the locator beacons in a vanilla marines army.

Is there some rule somewhere which would support the Sanguinor's Blessing not affecting the rest of the army? As written, it seems like it would randomly affect one sergeant, chosen from all friendly sergeants, not just Blood Angels. It's not really tactically beneficial either way, but because there's so little benefit to either side, if I just assume it's one or the other, I can see an opponent accusing me of trying to play silly buggers, and I don't want to have to open every single frigging game with a big long explanation of both sides of the rules issue. I'm just trying to get on some concrete ground one way or the other before I bring the Sanguinor in as an allied HQ.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470846.page#4670452

I found this thread, but it's almost ten months old, and there didn't seem to be a consensus reached. Is this something where I should just let my opponent decide how it works, even though it's going to take away game time? Kinda surprised this one hasn't blown up.

If it's not faq'd, and it clearly works. Run with it. As there are no rules to stop it.

 mrwhoop wrote:
I believe it's primary force rules affect primary force units (or so the faqs have been going). Vulkan's rule doesn't twinlink all flamers on the field, and the ork kff doesn't screen tau allies. Unless you think it also gives enemy units in 6" cover...

The problem is, Vulkans twin links C:SM troops with Chapter Tactics, it's pretty specific compared to Sanguinors.

To be safe I would play it as only Sergeants from the BA army can be chosen, as that is the least advantageous way to play it.

To be safe I would play it as only Sergeants from the BA army can be chosen, as that is the MOST advantageous way to play it.

FTFY

Given it is a CC upgrade and allied SMs are likely to include tac squads rather than Assault squads it is far more beneficial to restrict it to BAs.

Actually, the problem is that with the lists I tend to play, I could see an opponent claiming that is more advantageous to me to limit it to only the BA sergeants. Since I only run a single Blood Angel sergeant in my list. I can see the argument that I'm trying to 'cheat' to make it so I 'choose' (by limiting the field) the sergeant who gets blessed.

I think that, RAW, it's really, really clear that the Blessing should include other sergeants in the lottery at this point. I mean, GW not only has FAQ'ed similar abilities, but this very character, and still not clarified or touched this ability. But from a fluff perspective, it makes no sense at all, I think.

It's a pain in the butt, but it looks like I'm going to have to ask my opponents ahead of time what they think, and just let them decide. Or ask the administrative body of my group what they think and just always play it that way at my local.

I've added a poll to clarify what people think.

 FlingitNow wrote:

To be safe I would play it as only Sergeants from the BA army can be chosen, as that is the MOST advantageous way to play it.

FTFY

Given it is a CC upgrade and allied SMs are likely to include tac squads rather than Assault squads it is far more beneficial to restrict it to BAs.

With the wording of the power, the safe thing to do is not to spread abilities like this to other codexes, as a lot of abilities like this got restricted to units from their own codex.

Your fix was not needed or appreciated.

Restricting the ability to Codex BA, is the least advantageous way to play it, not the most advantageous.

I think that the problem is that it could be advantageous either way, Deathreaper. You could build a list to capitalize on either option.

You are correct that many abilities have been restricted to their Codex, but this one has not. Since the abilities of Battle Brother allies can affect one another, unless specifically reworded not to be able to, then shouldn't this rule also affect the allies? I confess that I was neutral coming into this discussion, but I've become fairly convinced that the lottery includes all sarges, now. I created this thread under the assumption that there was some actual written rule I had overlooked, since it seemed so counter-intuitive, but this does appear to be the way it works.

Basically because of the Context in which the rule was written.

That is why it only affects models from Codex BA.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

To be safe I would play it as only Sergeants from the BA army can be chosen, as that is the MOST advantageous way to play it.

FTFY

Given it is a CC upgrade and allied SMs are likely to include tac squads rather than Assault squads it is far more beneficial to restrict it to BAs.

With the wording of the power, the safe thing to do is not to spread abilities like this to other codexes, as a lot of abilities like this got restricted to units from their own codex.

Your fix was not needed or appreciated.

Restricting the ability to Codex BA, is the least advantageous way to play it, not the most advantageous.

I agree that you should probably limit it to BA units as that makes the most sense. However saying it is the least advantageous way to play it is just not correct. You could build to get an advantage out of it effecting allies but this is going to be a situational advantage at best. However building it to be more advantageous to be restricted to BA sergeants is much more likely. For instance in his example he has 1 BA Sergeant so he can now equipment his Sergeant KNOWING he'll has the buffed stat line and I'm guessing he's an assault Sergeant so will be able to take maximum advantage of that buff.

The issue is RaI seems fairly (but not crystal) clear that it effects BA units only. RaW it certainly effects allies and effecting just BA units is the most advantageous ruling but effecting Non-BA units can also be seen as advantageous.

Only if you ignore the context of the rule does it affect allied units.

When you say 'context,' Deathreaper, do you just mean that it's written in the Blood Angel codex? I confess to being a little confused by what you mean by 'context' in this context.

It seems like you are making a Rules as Intended argument, which I don't think I've ever seen you do before. I'm not saying it's an invalid stance (sometimes it's the only valid one) but I can't remember ever seeing you take it.

The context of the way the rule is written, and the fact that it is within the BA codex, shows it is clearly only referencing units from said codex.

I believe there is both a RAW and a RAI argument to be made about the wording of the sanguinator's blessing.

The RAI being that they FaQed many other model specific rules to only affect units from the codex they were bought from. (And the recent codexes with models that have special rules like "If you include XXX HQ character in your Primary detachment Etc...).

Though the RAW is all messed up with the older codexed as of right now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The context of the way the rule is written, and the fact that it is within the BA codex, shows it is clearly only referencing units from said codex.

So are you saying that rules from one codex never affect units from another, regardless of their level of alliance? I thought the whole point of battle brothers was that their rules and equipment did affect each other, unless otherwise specified. Do you think that deep striking Tau are unable to use a locator beacon from a friendly space marine detachment? Is a vanilla codex techmarine unable to repair an allied Baal Predator?

The RAI being that they FaQed many other model specific rules to only affect units from the codex they were bought from. (And the recent codexes with models that have special rules like "If you include XXX HQ character in your Primary detachment Etc...).

Okay, I can see what you're saying, that the RAI is that it wouldn't work on allied units. But the problem with your reasoning is that there has already been an FAQ for this codex that adjusted rules to exclude allies. Not only that, but the FAQ already made an adjustment to this very character. I can understand it if they've been slow in getting to him, or forgot him or his codex entirely, but they've already been here and adjusted the Sanguinor's rules. Doesn't it seem a little far-fetched that they would go to all that trouble and neglect to adjust this rule if they meant for it to be adjusted? It almost seems to me like the fact that the Sanguinor already had one adjustment lends credence to the idea that they meant for it to apply to other armies. Hrm... I may have to seek outside advice on this one...

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The context of the way the rule is written, and the fact that it is within the BA codex, shows it is clearly only referencing units from said codex.

So are you saying that rules from one codex never affect units from another, regardless of their level of alliance? I thought the whole point of battle brothers was that their rules and equipment did affect each other, unless otherwise specified. Do you think that deep striking Tau are unable to use a locator beacon from a friendly space marine detachment? Is a vanilla codex techmarine unable to repair an allied Baal Predator?

The only way for the rules from one codex to affect units from another is in the newer codexes, or any rules that have an FaQ that say they can affect units from other codexes. Remember if it does not say you can affect units from other codexes, then you can not.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The RAI being that they FaQed many other model specific rules to only affect units from the codex they were bought from. (And the recent codexes with models that have special rules like "If you include XXX HQ character in your Primary detachment Etc...).

Okay, I can see what you're saying, that the RAI is that it wouldn't work on allied units. But the problem with your reasoning is that there has already been an FAQ for this codex that adjusted rules to exclude allies. Not only that, but the FAQ already made an adjustment to this very character. I can understand it if they've been slow in getting to him, or forgot him or his codex entirely, but they've already been here and adjusted the Sanguinor's rules. Doesn't it seem a little far-fetched that they would go to all that trouble and neglect to adjust this rule if they meant for it to be adjusted? It almost seems to me like the fact that the Sanguinor already had one adjustment lends credence to the idea that they meant for it to apply to other armies. Hrm... I may have to seek outside advice on this one...

The Intention, in my opinion, is that any given models rules only affect the codex he came from, unless the actual rule specifies that it works with BB's (Which of course is only in the new codexes).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The context of the way the rule is written, and the fact that it is within the BA codex, shows it is clearly only referencing units from said codex.

So are you saying that rules from one codex never affect units from another, regardless of their level of alliance? I thought the whole point of battle brothers was that their rules and equipment did affect each other, unless otherwise specified. Do you think that deep striking Tau are unable to use a locator beacon from a friendly space marine detachment? Is a vanilla codex techmarine unable to repair an allied Baal Predator?

The only way for the rules from one codex to affect units from another is in the newer codexes, or any rules that have an FaQ that say they can affect units from other codexes. Remember if it does not say you can affect units from other codexes, then you can not.

Um...I was kind of under the impression that if it says it affects friendly units, then it affects Battle Brothers. At that point, there needs to be some sort of express rule saying it doesn't affect them, doesn't there?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The RAI being that they FaQed many other model specific rules to only affect units from the codex they were bought from. (And the recent codexes with models that have special rules like "If you include XXX HQ character in your Primary detachment Etc...).

Okay, I can see what you're saying, that the RAI is that it wouldn't work on allied units. But the problem with your reasoning is that there has already been an FAQ for this codex that adjusted rules to exclude allies. Not only that, but the FAQ already made an adjustment to this very character. I can understand it if they've been slow in getting to him, or forgot him or his codex entirely, but they've already been here and adjusted the Sanguinor's rules. Doesn't it seem a little far-fetched that they would go to all that trouble and neglect to adjust this rule if they meant for it to be adjusted? It almost seems to me like the fact that the Sanguinor already had one adjustment lends credence to the idea that they meant for it to apply to other armies. Hrm... I may have to seek outside advice on this one...

The Intention, in my opinion, is that any given models rules only affect the codex he came from, unless the actual rule specifies that it works with BB's (Which of course is only in the new codexes).

Okay, so isn't the point of the FAQs to bring the older codexes up to date? They've all gotten FAQs to clarify what works with allies and what doesn't haven't they? Saying that rules from new codexes work on allies unless they say otherwise, but rules from older codexes only work on allies if they expressly say they do seems kind of arbitrary doesn't it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not seeing the opposite side of this as having any kind of stable basis. Is there any support for this RAW? Any at all? I mean, I see that people are voting for 'no,' but no one seems to be voicing a reason for it. Is everyone just going from a RAI perspective on this, or is there some kind of actual written rule I'm not seeing? I feel like the entire Dakka community is playing some kind of joke on me. Surely Ashton Kutcher is about to jump out and tell me that I've been punked.

There's no argument here, it clearly says "one sergeant in your army". All sergeants in your army, whether primary or allied (of any type) detachment are eligible. Talking about "least advantageous" is irrelevant because there's no ambiguity at all, it makes about as much sense as playing your bolters as STR 3 AP - because it's the least advantageous option in the STR 3 vs. STR 4 "debate".

And no, the other similar rules on other characters do not suggest anything about RAI. In fact, since they had to explicitly errata them to apply only to their own detachment they are a clear argument that this ability is NOT similarly limited.

Given a hunch that just about every other ability such as this has been faq to only worrk on units from it's own book i'm going to have to say it only works on sergents from codex blood angels...

It does clearly say "one sergeant in your army"

In the context of the BA book Army means Blood Angels units.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does clearly say "one sergeant in your army"

In the context of the BA book Army means Blood Angels units.

Seen this argument presented frequently,. Never seen anything to back it up that I find convincing.

Drager wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does clearly say "one sergeant in your army"

In the context of the BA book Army means Blood Angels units.

Seen this argument presented frequently,. Never seen anything to back it up that I find convincing.

Look at the BA book, check the Forces of the blood angels page and note what that book refers to as 'army' and you shall see everything you need to see to convince you that army, as noted in the BA codex means Blood Angels units.

Seen it, does not convince me.

Drager wrote:
Seen it, does not convince me.

The part that states that units in the BA book are used to make a blood angels army?

You saw that and are still unconvinced as to what the BA book means when it says army?

It means that Blood Angels that are taken from the codex make an army.

the Sanguinors blessing affects the army. Does that explain it to where you can understand it

I understand you, I just find your argument unconvincing given the context.

Drager wrote:
I understand you, I just find your argument unconvincing given the context.

So the part that defines army in the BA codex is unconvincing?

Interesting. Incorrect as well.

I find nowhere in the book that defines army. I find an entry defining blood angels army. I may have missed the definition though and will take another look.

How can I be incorrect as to what I find convincing?

Surely I must know whether I find an argument convincing and my expressed opinion thereon is definitive, unless you assume I am deceiving you on that point.

Drager wrote:
I find nowhere in the book that defines army. I find an entry defining blood angels army. I may have missed the definition though and will take another look.

How can I be incorrect as to what I find convincing?

Surely I must know whether I find an argument convincing and my expressed opinion thereon is definitive, unless you assume I am deceiving you on that point.

You not finding it convincing does not mean that the definition is not there. I will spell it out for you.

Quotes from the Blood Angel Codex:
"This section of the book details the forces used by the blood Angels... Each entry describes the unit and gives specific rules you will need to use them in your games. As such, the army list given later refers to the page numbers for these entries." (23)
"The models in a Blood Angels army use a number of special rules... If a special rule is not explained on this page or in the relevant entry, it can be found in the main WH40K rulebook."(23)

"The Blood Angels army list is split into five sections: HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. All of the squads, vehicles and characters in the army are placed into one of these sections..."(81)

Note the underlined section is really the defining language.

If The Sanguinor is from the Blood Angels army list, and it falls into one of the 5 categories (Which of course The Sanguinor does as he is an HQ), then he is in the army, and his rules that say army refer to the units in one of the five sections.