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No, DC are never able to score, due to the text of "Black Rage".

Would they still be able to grab linebreaker?

I would assume that 'never score" means not score in any way ever. Not trying to screw my own list, I'm just being objective.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Would they still be able to grab linebreaker?

Any denial unit can still get linebreaker, so yes. Anything that can't be a scoring unit can still be a denial unit unless it also has a rule that says it can't be a denial unit.

Could be, though the local I play with they say the scenario overrules codex for that, I have been on defensive in those scenarios and always allow units that never usually score to score, thats the rules where I play.

Even if they can never score in any circumstances (and by extension certain units in other codexs) I still find the DC a great unit. BTW, latest tournament results from World of Warhammer in the UK show BA still doing well. One army max possible battle points at 9 (3 points per victory) and the other 2 at 8.

Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

Martel732 wrote:
Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

I think the Brits truely "Forge the Narritive" where as Americans are more concerned with "what units can i win with?"

Yeah. So if people build ad-hoc unoptimized lists, BA can win consistently. This has always been true of any codex in any edition. However, as a past time, this is supposed to be fun. Helldrakes, Vendettas, grey hunters, Night Scythes, Tau shooting and Eldar shooting all make this game very much unfun playing as BA.

In Starcraft, I can punish someone for spamming a single unit. In this game, its impossible with a BA TAC list, because I can't "scout" the opponent like in Starcraft.

As far as i'm aware, tournaments at Warhammer World aren't really very competitive...
And yeah, I think overall 40k in America is more tournament orientated, and therefore more competitive.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Perhaps. But in the tournaments I follow, there are no BA and Necron allies show up in ~50% of lists. I don't think the Brits are playing the same game.

I think the Brits truely "Forge the Narritive" where as Americans are more concerned with "what units can i win with?"

Shame about the English team winning the last ETC since the Brits don't care about winning. No matter how much Jervis tries to claim that Americans have ruined his game by caring about being good at it, it's just not that simple. The mixture of competitive to narrative gamers is about the same in every country.

Jervis actually said that? What a damn fool. There is going to be a competitive/optimizing sub group in every game like this. It's GWs fault for making units like the Vendetta and helldrake, not players' faults for taking them.

Based on listening to the 40K UK podcast, I'm not sure the Brits "forge the narrative" that much. Lots of Tau optimization talk, lots of sabre-spamming IG, lots of Wraith-wing Necrons...

If BAs are doing well at Warhammer World I'd first ask what kind of comp rules are being used, and then I'd wonder if many competitive players go to Warhammer World event, and then I'd say "Good for them. I hope I can replicate such results," but I don't think WW is predictive of looming Blood Angel victories around the globe.

I would be interested to see this tournament winning BA list, just to see the composition and how conventional or unconventional it is.

Who can say? Of course everyone likes to think their tournament is "Harder" or "The best"

I see no reason why WHW would be any less competitive than any other tournament.

But still, I'd rather play for the narrative than tournaments.

I know Martel thinks it is all doom and gloom, but I have had no real problems in 6th so far, then we are playing a large campaign game in my area, which has a very different dynamic to a tournament.

Sure I'd like to see a better codex with cost reductions and some unit buffs but until it happens, work with what you have. Plenty of ways to play BA competitively, sure some people hate the idea of playing a BA shooting army, but remember, they are essentially a codex chapter in organisation so why not?

It's primarily doom and gloom in a TAC situation where your opponents are bringing lists that use the best stuff from the other codices.

Take away those elements, and the BA still work pretty well. Unfortunately, that is the set up of many tournaments and how I have to play them as well. I build a list, put it in my carrier, and see who's at the store that day.

For example, I find the CSM a reasonable opponent when they are not using helldrakes. However, it is asking a lot for a CSM player to not have helldrakes. However, lists like Tau and to a lesser degree Eldar have much better internal balance in their codices and so they are always very hard (bordering unfair) battles for me.

Martel732 what do your lists look like these days?

Well. I have two primary schemes.

1) Jumper/drop pod.

Pure jumpers don't seem to do it. So I hybridized with drop pods. I usually drop a melta sternguard with corb and libby for shield of sanguinius; fragnought; tac squad with plasma. Bigger games will include locator beacons on pods to allow heavy flamer shooty terminators to beam in. Maybe not the most efficient thing ever, but sometimes it makes the pods targets.

Jumpers are 2 squads with libby and priest and some MM attack bikes. Sometime stormraven (MM/LC) depending on points. Sometimes I get squirrely and put SG in this list.

2) Hybrid mech

A bunch of tanks including whirlwind, auto/las, dakka Baal. Some mech ASM with TL HF Razor and flamer and hand flamer in squad. One plasma tac squad with a las/plas razor. SIngle ASM with all my ICs: libby and priest. Stormraven (MM/LC), aegis line. OH, and a biker priest with MM attack bikes and regular bikers with plasma and a MM attack bike attached.

None of these are obviously super great. I'm still looking for super great builds I'm a little limited in models as in I can't field LR spam. But I have a ton of rhinos, razors, etc.

Sound like fun lists at any rate Martel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am going for armor lists, well except against necrons!

So, as a Black Templars player who's thinking of allying in some DC in a Drop Pod to represent Sword Brethren that don't suck, what HQ do you guys reckon I should go with? I've been looking at Tycho; he's not too expensive, gets a combi-melta and has an ignores saves at initiative weapon. It's either that or a Chaplain, but the Chaplain is much more vulnerable to being killed in challenges due to having worse CC weapons.

Use a libby and buff your other squads. DC work best with no IC, imo.

The hybrid mech list can throw out a surprising amount of fire. However, it really suffers against Eldar and Tau lists that just shoot so much more. The cheap 5 man ASM units with flamers in a cheap flame razor are actually quite destructive and serve as surrogate assault troops.

The drop/jumpers really want to see enemies who reserve. I can drop my Sternguard with FNP and shield of sanguinius and be a royal pain. THe more shots I get with the special ammo, the better this list goes.

In nearly every game I lose, I feel I am a unit or two away from victory. I may move my troops very well, and get decent die rolls, but the BA just keep losing the wars of attrition and I fall short of scoring units at the end due to lethality of 6th edition codices.

As an aside, I don't drop DC in the drop list because between the fragnought, sternguards, and tactical squad, I don't feel there's anything I want to drop for them. The tactical squad actually does more damage the turn it arrives and can split into two scoring units. The DC gives me zero scoring units. And the DC can't touch the immediate impact of the other two units either.

I do have a DC in a LR quasi-AV 13 wall list as well. It does exactly what it sounds like. Meched up ASM, and a lots of predator hulls and double furioso with frag cannon. I've had less success with this list, maybe due to the amount of Necrons I face because of the allies rules.

Many people where I play borrow lists from the net. Tourney lists. Many people consider triple helldrake unfair for a "friendly" game, I just sort of think of it as business as usual. A couple of times I have overrun their aegis line to take out their commlink and then watched them roll bad for reserves. BA CAN handle CSM if ~600 pts of fast attack are late to the battle. It's still not easy, though, because plague marines are badasses.

Martel732 wrote:
Use a libby and buff your other squads. DC work best with no IC, imo.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, as a Black Templars player...

Oh, yeah. I forgot. I just see BA and recommend libbies.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Librarian
Corbulo
Frag-a-Naught, pod
8 Sternguard, some combis, pod
10 Death Company, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
10 Assault Marines, Sarge 2xinferus, Melta, Flamer, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
5 Assault Marines, pod
Dakka-naught, pod
Dakka-naught, pod

Nice thoughts that led to this list, very helpful! Cheers

I am considering making my BA pod-heavy so this (and the commentary leading up to it) was very helpful.

For those recommending DC in a Land Raider... if running a pod list, would you deepstrike that landraider? Perhaps have a homer on one of the other pods to come in off of?

I used a land raider and deep strike it on.

Just had a wacky thought, I don't have the BA Codex available ATM though, so feel free to correct errors.

Astorath - 225

10x Death Company with 45 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

5x Scouts, Camo-cloaks - 90

Assault Squad, 2x Meltagun - 200

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Sanguinary Priest, Jump Pack - 85

1750 points on the nose. 30 FNP über-berzerkers in your deployment zone turn one and another 10 with Astorath incoming across the board could be interesting.

Multiple DC lists can be fun. I ran 2 x 9 man squads with a chaplain in each, Astorath with assault marines and death co Tycho in a Landraider. Was a lot of fun. DC Tycho is a mean S.O.B. but he can have issues with wounding since he's only str 4 and most of the time what you will be fighting is t4 or higher.

I have 15 DC, they have often been game winners for me, clearing (denying) objectives to my opponent by either wiping out his units holding them, or being close enough to deny him the objective.

I am looking at a 3 Baal preds 3 Vindi steel wall with appropriate support. I wouldn't want to play it against Necrons of course, then I would use my rather large infantry force.

The Tau players in my area love masses of firewarriors, I can see a Baal pred wall with Vindi's making life very unpleasant for them.

Yes, DC Tycho is good fun, but why for the love of the Emperor can't he join the DC? Logic fails at GW again.

Based on how the codex's are going at the moment I can see a significant price reduction coming for all MEQ, we will have a good indicator of what will happen with BA when the C:SM comes out soon, and said price reduction would help a great deal.

For the love of the emperor, please our captains get interesting wargear options and not be forced to spend another edition on the hobby shelf.

And yes, why the hell can't DC Tycho join the DC? He's like forest Gump on the DC school bus, "seats taken!" Poor Tycho.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just had a wacky thought, I don't have the BA Codex available ATM though, so feel free to correct errors.

Astorath - 225

10x Death Company with 45 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

10x Death Company with 40 points of upgrades - 245
Drop Pod - 35

5x Scouts, Camo-cloaks - 90

Assault Squad, 2x Meltagun - 200

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Blenderioso - 125
Drop Pod - 35

Sanguinary Priest, Jump Pack - 85

1750 points on the nose. 30 FNP über-berzerkers in your deployment zone turn one and another 10 with Astorath incoming across the board could be interesting.

I love that list!!

P.S
Is a Blenderioso 2x frag cannons?

Probably blood talons, which I would recommend swapping for fragnoughts.