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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah I think these tiles are gonna work much better. I especially like how you can easily have them be double sided and use either side whenever you want, instead of the puzzle pieces that only match if you use all 1 side. Most corridors will be at least 2 hexes wide, probably 3. Just because there will be some larger creatures with larger bases that might take up more than 1 hex, so they all need to be able to fit.

I think I'm going to simplify the ranged weapons a bit more. Since the hex spaces are 30mm now instead of 1" squares, the numbered inch ranges won't work out so well. So right now the rules for range will be, if you're in a cave in the dark, you can only shoot up to your Range Combat attribute in spaces. Since I want to do outdoor tiles too where you can see better, I'm thinking range on those would be 2X your attribute. It feels kind of silly to say that a longarm can shoot 30 inches, when a cave's tunnel might only be 7 spaces long. So I'm thinking the hero cards won't have gun ranges listed under the weapons like the skirmish cards are. The longer ranges would just be used in skirmish games. So guns would be listed like...

Remington Rolling Block Rifle
Strength: 5 - Level: 6
Longarm: May reroll 1 missed D6 when rolling to hit.

The hero cards will be a large format card with a heroic advancement chart on them too, for leveling up campaign games. I'm thinking I'd do downloadable character cards separately for the skirmish game, or include the printed ones too if it doesn't cost too much. So the characters will have the same attributes and skills and weapons, just listed differently depending on the game.

Also trying to plan out the different campaign packs after we had a chat about the format and stuff. So the main boxed game comes with Curse of the Skinwalker, there will be a generic rulebook plus the campaign book with fluff and any special rules needed, plus a story driven campaign with 8-10 missions or quests .. hmm.. what would you call a quest in the wild west?

The future campaign packs would be the same idea.. a new campaign book, 2 new heroes and a bunch of new monsters including 1 named "boss" monster that the campaign's storyline is based on, new loot cards and new board tiles.

Since I have 8 skinwalkers planned at the moment, I'm thinking of doing the first 4 in the main game (wolf, cat, bear & bat), and the next 4 (birds, bugs, crocs and bulls) in other campaigns.. Birds and bulls among other things in the canyon themed campaign, like a minotaur's labyrinth only it's a maze of canyons with an alpha were-bison. Bugs and crocks would be in a swampy themed campaign. We'll do vampires & wendigos in crypts living under the undertaker's house, and a separate zombie themed campagin with a forest setting (with walking dead heroes ) .. and then the Tommyknockers will get their own campaign too.. thinking it might be fun to make them kinda like the movie Gremlins, only man sized and scarier looking.. no cute Gizmos..

I'm sure we'll still package some monsters and the heroes separately too, but for the most part we want to do them in campaign packs, so you can get everything in 1 big box for a lower overall price. And instead of doing a separate skirmish expansion book, we'll just have the extra skirmish rules in the back of each campaign book, and also a PDF with any new skirmish rules too that folks can just download.

hoping to get the new tester pack finished up in the next week or so I might just do it as a public alpha test kind of thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/21 16:49:48


   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Put together the sample map for the tester pack. It's pretty basic since there's no artwork yet, but I'm just messing with tile layouts right now. I think in the end there will be a few different "skins" for the tile patterns so even though they might have the same wall patterns they will still look different.

So on here, the dark gray spaces are walls, light gray are obstacles for cover, white is a clear open space. You enter the map from the right hand side. This is a small starter map that will be one of the first ones in the campaign where the heroes go to a small cave to help a farmer track down his missing cattle and get ambushed by a werecat

The top pic shows all the tiles put together and the bottom one shows the separate pieces


   
Made in de
Grovelin' Grot Rigger



Berlin, Germany

I like it this way.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

me too, I like the way it's coming together now That map above is also still pretty big even though it's a small cave. It's about 21"x15" .. most maps will be 2-3x bigger that that. In the end I'm going to see if we can sell tile packs separately too so people can make really big maps if they want to.

   
Made in nz
Parachuting Para-Commando




Auckland, New Zealand

Considering the new shooting ranges, that's a really good setup. I especially like the small wall sections to close off the holes in the wall. Great stuff.

======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
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======End Dakka Geek Code====== 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah there's going to be lots of extra room on the sheets for those 3-space extra bits.. also there will be little template hexes that you place over a space, like for a treasure chest or a trap, they'll be as big as 1 space and one side will be a ? icon or something like that, then a hero can walk up to it and flip it over for his action and the other side will have a treasure icon that says you can draw 1 loot card, or a trap with skull icon, or a monster icon that lets the beast player roll an extra encounter die so more things could ambush the party. We'll also do other tokens for things like NPCs, like if you have to escort a lost miner to the exit, or special quest items you might need to collect.

Starting to think about model bases.. would it be worth it to do hex shaped bases instead of round? Just thinking it might be easier to see where you're facing, and we could do multi-hex bases for larger models.. like 2 hexes for something that would go on your average cavalry base, a triangle of 3 hexes for a monster, and a big circle of 7 spaces if we ever did something massive like a weremammoth

The skirmish models would still be on round bases though and still fit in a space, and the hexes would be the same size as the skirmish bases so I doubt it would effect anything for swapping models around in the 2 games. I kind of would rather keep everything universal, but I feel like the hex bases would work better for the hex tiles

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






I love the hex boards. The finished "big board" you showed looks great.

Not so keen on the hex bases. I understand their utility for a hex-based game. Problem is my entire collection is based on 30mm rounds, and I am averse to introducing a new type of base. I think the base serves a very important purpose in visually unifying groups of models.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah I'm the same way. If we do change, the change will have to be for skirmish models too, so that would mean re-basing everything and then taking new pics and printing new boxes, probably more hassle than it's worth.

When we do the plastics for the boxed game we're going to have to get the bases done with the same company at the same time, so we would probably have to just mimic the rounded edge bases we use now... kind of like what Dreamforge did with their troops from Wargames Factory. We might end up using the same company i the end, and they add the bases to the sprues.

Maybe we could do something special, and have a little line embossed across the base, like to divide it in half so you can tell which half is the front and which is the back.

But anyway, when we do get the new bases done Game Salute wants to use them for all metal figures going forward too instead of having to order the plain bases from the UK every time we need more. Will be more efficient that way and cheaper in the long run.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

So, just wondering .. with the adventure game would you guys prefer a 8-10 map campaign storyline.. or would you rather make your own maps and stories maybe with just a few pre-made maps more for examples?

The way the map design works is, you can build a small, medium or large map. Small map is 2 tiles per hero, like the one above, medium is 3 tiles per and large is 4. Then there will be hex punch-out tokens for different objectives that you can place around the map. A hero walks up to it and does a search action to flip it over and see what happens. I thought that would be more fun than event & objective cards. So you can have up to 1 token for each hero in a small map, 2 tokens per hero in a medium map and 3 in a large one. You can draw the tokens randomly out of a bag, or the GM can place the specific ones he wants for his story.

So far the tokens I have are loot tokens where the hero gets to draw a loot card, trap tokens where they have to disarm the trap or take damage, person token like if you have to rescue a lost miner or something like that, a beast token meaning creatures will spawn on you, and a generic token you can use for anything. The tokens have a ? on one side, and their icon on the other.. so you put them all face down so the players won't know what's under it till the search the area. Still thinking up other tokens too so there will be more.

Anyway... I'm starting to get the feeling that more players will want to make up their own maps instead of following the campaign maps exactly every single time... and maybe it would be better off just having one small, medium and large map in the book as an example, with more of an emphasis on folks making up their own?

   
Made in de
Grovelin' Grot Rigger



Berlin, Germany

For the start I would prefer a map set with a campaign storyline. Later when you know the game you can make your own maps.
   
Made in nz
Parachuting Para-Commando




Auckland, New Zealand

A few maps to get people started would be good, kinda like tutorial missions in a PC game where you can pick up new concepts with each one. Start with a small map or two and work your way up to some large maps.

Once someone's familiar with them, they can make their own with ease.

======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.. 4-5 pre-made missions to get you started, and all the rules you need to make your own

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

I have the latest version of the new rules all done now. I emailed or PMed the link to a few folks who tested before.. if anyone else wants to try it out, let me know

Once i get the next big round of feedback I'll probably put together a slightly more polished "public alpha" version

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

More format questions

got some ideas I'm tossing around in my head. Plan right now is to have one big boxed game with the were-things theme, followed by expansion packs that will have a new campaign book and centered around a new theme or story and a new faction. So for example we'd do the undead expansion that would have 2 new heroes, a vamp character for the boss, lesser vamp fiends and a bunch of ghouls and zombies for minions.. maybe 20 models in all. And it would also have extra "crypt" board tiles. The campaign book would have all of the rules you need for playing undead things in both the adventure and skirmish game. Pretty much copying off of Descent's format.

Kind of wondering though since I already have all of the races planned out, maybe I should just include them all in the main rulebook and instead of all those expansions. So if we did that, there wouldn't be big expansion packs but instead new heroes would be sold separately just like hired guns now, and new creatures would come packaged in the "gang" format we do now with 1 Monster, 2 Fiends and 2 Minions. There would be a couple of undead starters, beast starters and tommyknocker starters, followed by 3-man support packs for each too.

The latter seems like a good idea to me, but I like how the box set's theme is based on beasts.. would it be weird having the rules for undead & tommyknockers, but no models for them in the box? That's kind of why I wanted to do the descent-style themed expansion packs. The amount of different sculpts in the box will be kind of limited due to costs.. there will probably be like 20 different sculpts, but most of the minions will be multiple copies of the same pose.. unless the kickstarter does amazingly well. So that's another reason I wanted to try and keep it as just beasts to begin with.

Anyhoo .. what would you rather see? 1 big boxed game followed up with whole separate expansion boxed sets for each race/faction ... or 1 big boxed game with all the rules you need, and a bunch of 5 & 3-man boxes with new monsters?

   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

I'd rather see a box that gives me replay value. Give me all the rules I need to play the game, the models for the basic game, and then for any expansion release them in packs sort of similar to SDE. When you release an expansion of monsters be sure it include a new 'hero' or two so that players that wind up playing as the heroes get cool new toys too.

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Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Ah .. never played SDE, but it sounds like the same descent format only without a rulebook/campaign book? might be a good middle ground.

I just didn't want people to buy the big box and read about cowboy vampires and then be disappointed that there's no models for them, or they have to go out and buy more stuff they weren't expecting. Though I could always put that right on the box, with "Also available" side panels maybe.

   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

Yeah, SDE has all of their rules and tiles in the main game, and then with their expansions they release another like 12 monsters, a few new item cards, and 1 or 2 new heroes.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Hmm.. interesting. Sounds like I'll have to buy me a copy (and write it off as product research).

So does the rulebook list a bunch of monsters that aren't included in the main box set? In my case there would be 2 whole factions missing (undead and tommyknockers) .. but maybe I could mix some of them in.. keep it mostly all beasts but add a few goblin models and zombies, and drop the 4 factions to just all humans vs all monsters.

I was hoping to keep the instructions for each creature on the cards for the most part anyway, but I was going to have a "hunter's journal" as a monster manual of sorts as part of the fluff


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.. I think we're going to go with a more basic board tile, to make it easier to put maps together. The other shape was a little too funky and kept overlapping weird or leaving too many openings. So this new design will be a tile with 20 total spaces in more of a hex shape, so you can make more "cave-like" caves like this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/05 04:07:24


   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 Necros wrote:
Hmm.. interesting. Sounds like I'll have to buy me a copy (and write it off as product research).

So does the rulebook list a bunch of monsters that aren't included in the main box set? In my case there would be 2 whole factions missing (undead and tommyknockers) .. but maybe I could mix some of them in.. keep it mostly all beasts but add a few goblin models and zombies, and drop the 4 factions to just all humans vs all monsters.

I was hoping to keep the instructions for each creature on the cards for the most part anyway, but I was going to have a "hunter's journal" as a monster manual of sorts as part of the fluff

There isn't a single monster's stat in the rulebook for the game. Everything comes with a stat card and all of the model's rules are on the stat card. The same holds true for the Heroes.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

cool .. that's pretty much what I'm doing too. starting to think maybe it would be better to mix in a few other non-animal-ish critters for variety and keep the whole thing as heroes vs all monsters, and then save the whole faction thing for the skirmish game.

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

I like the "Descent" format.

Also, I'm curious; why the name change for the new game? Where does "Underworld" come from, in the overall scheme, including future releases? Or is that kind of the "expansion" name, and not the games name?

Eric

Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah it's more like an expansion name. So, the skirmish game is called "Blackwater Gulch: Gangfights in the Old West", and the adventure game is called "Blackwater Gulch: Underlands" or Underland Adventures.. haven't decided yet

I think I'm going to do something inbetween for the expansion packs, a little SDE and a little Descent. No campaign book, but it will still have new board tiles. The hex tiles are like 5.5", so we should be able to fit 3 or 4 in a box with the minis. There will also be new loot cards, stat cards and objective cards.

I think I'm going to bring back the objective card idea, but instead of being a deck you draw from randomly like I had at first, they're more like for reference for the GM. When you make your map, the GM places a few small hex objective tokens some spaces. A hero walks up to it and flips it over and the icon on the token will say what the objective is. So he could find some loot, or trigger a trap, or it might be a boss fight, or whatever. So, we can add a couple of new objectives in there with each new expansion pack. I thought that would be a fun way to have a story that's always a little different instead of "OK, let's play the 3rd quest again..."

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

Cool.

So, what does "Underland" represent, then? Is it because the tiles will all be "cavern" tiles & that's where the scenarios with the main game will take place? If that's the case, when will you do about the title when you eventually want to create forest tiles or something?

Eric

Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

yeah, even though there will be some outdoor tiles or expansion packs the whole theme is still primarily a dungeon-crawler. And also playing off of other similar things like the movie underworld. The outdoor canyons or forest paths or swamplands would still be maze-like too, so even though there's no celling, you're still crawling through an inhospitable place, so the name felt right to me for that too

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

Cool.

I look forward to having multiple expansions, so we can run a "travel through the woods to the hidden caverns" scenario. : )

Eric

Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Been thinking about the models in the box, and I think I'm going to go with 1 character for each profession for a total of 8, but you have to pick out a gang of 5 when you play. So those 3 extra hero sculpts will probably mean a few less monsters. Going to remove the Sunka Warakin and Montauk Monster, but they would get added to an expansion or maybe they could be included as stretch goals. Also thinking about planning to do 2 copies of each fiend, so there would be 2 werebears, 2 werecats, 2 werebats and 2 tunnel worms. They would probably be the same exact pose though, unless we could unlock alt poses for a stretch goal in the campaign. We would probably focus on the expansion stretch goals first though.

Then each expansion would be 2 all new heroes that are brand new professions, 2 monsters, 2 fiends (2 copies each), and 3 minons (5 copies each)

So here's who I'm hoping we can do for the main boxed game...

Heroes:
J. W. Clarkson - Monster Hunter
Running Bear - Prospector
Mr. Smithe - Engineer
Bob Jackson - Gambler
Cookie - Wrassler
Molly Maguire - Bounty Hunter
Colin Buchanan - Gunslinger
Dr. Morose - Doctor

Creatures:
Croatoan, Alpha Werewolf - Monster
Sasquach - Monster
Barrens Devil - Monster
Werebear - Fiend (2 copies, same pose)
Werecat - Fiend (2 copies, same pose)
Werebat - Fiend (2 copies, same pose)
Tunnel Worm - Fiend (2 copies, same pose)
Chupacabra - Minions (5 copies, same pose)
Cactus Cats - Minions (5 copies, same pose)
Hodags - Minions (5 copies, same pose)
Jackalopes - Minions (5 copies, same pose)
Tunnel Grubs - Minions (5 copies, same pose)

44 minis total

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

Very interesting looking set up.
I can't help but ask, though: Why is the werewolf a lycanthrope, while the others (bat, bear and cat) are fiends?


Eric

Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Fiend is the level. So humans have Heroic Characters (Gang Leaders / Hired Guns) as the toughest, followed by Professionals and then Henchmen for the wimpy guys. The creatures will all be Monsters for the toughest, followed by Fiends and then Minions

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

Ah. I missed that. Went right by me.
Thanks for the explanation.


Eric

Black Fiend wrote: Okay all the ChapterHouse Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
The Green Git wrote: I'd like to cross section them and see if they have TFG rings, but that's probably illegal.
Polonius wrote: You have to love when the most clearly biased person in the room is claiming to be objective.
Greebynog wrote:Us brits have a sense of fair play and propriety that you colonial savages can only dream of.
Stelek wrote: I know you're afraid. I want you to be. Because you should be. I've got the humiliation wagon all set up for you to take a ride back to suck city.
Quote: LunaHound--- Why do people hate unpainted models? I mean is it lacking the realism to what we fantasize the plastic soldier men to be?
I just can't stand it when people have fun the wrong way. - Chongara
I do believe that the GW "moneysheep" is a dying breed, despite their bleats to the contrary. - AesSedai
You are a thief and a predator of the wargaming community, and i'll be damned if anyone says differently ever again on my watch in these forums. -MajorTom11 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Thinking about the boards still. Wondering if it would be better to drop the "build your own board" kind of format with all those separate tiles, and go back to the folded up game board idea. Maybe a double-sided quad-fold board that's 22x22 inches, or 6-fold 22x33"? Would be kind of like the board for Incursion, but with hexes instead of squares...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1440310529/incursion?ref=search

and the hexes would go right up to the board edge, so they would also be designed to let you place 2 (or more) whole boards together so you can have really big maps if you want. Everything else the same, you still set your own objectives and have the random encounters, you just don't have 20 board tiles to lay out first. Thinking this way would be easier to just "set up and play" .. and the expansion packs would still come with a new board too.

what do y'all think?

   
 
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