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 Super Ready wrote:

 Roberkhan wrote:
- Get used and spent by a Daemon in some way or another. Some of these are quite nice, actually, specially if treating with Slaaneshi Daemons.

Err... I wouldn't bank on it, not for anything but the shortest of terms at least. There's a reason the Eldar are afraid of death.

Yes, right, only nice at the short term, but, hey, what a blast of a short term!

Am I the only one who's going to point out that while genocidal when he felt it was called for, the Emperor is by no means a self proclaimed god. the Emperor in fact LOATHED religion in all forms and considered it the number one cause of mankind's past mistakes. The whole "God Emperor" funnily enough came from Lorgar one of the traitor primarchs.Ol' Empy even went so far as to raze the first world the Word Bearers brought into compliance and then berated Lorgar in its ruins front of his entire legion for spreading the "Imperial Creed" religion.

... at least in some versions of the background.

In the Index Astartes article from WD #270, the writers describe him to be merely annoyed at the Word Bearers' efforts.

"When the Emperor took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to re-conquer and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in vast displays of fealty and piety."

That other narrative seems to be a fairly new thing pushed by the Horus Heresy novels. I have not seen it made its way into one of the rulebooks yet, though.

Thing is, even I (read : big supporter of IT), do not understand how do miracles work while he is still walking and talking ( read : flight of E, Vulkan lives )...

Ir0njack wrote:
Am I the only one who's going to point out that while genocidal when he felt it was called for, the Emperor is by no means a self proclaimed god. the Emperor in fact LOATHED religion in all forms and considered it the number one cause of mankind's past mistakes. The whole "God Emperor" funnily enough came from Lorgar one of the traitor primarchs.Ol' Empy even went so far as to raze the first world the Word Bearers brought into compliance and then berated Lorgar in its ruins front of his entire legion for spreading the "Imperial Creed" religion.

It was a single city, but it was Monarchia, capital of the world where Lorgar was found.

Lorgar, however, fixated far less on the loss of the city and its inhabitants, or the words of his father, but rather on his perceived humiliation in front of the Perfect Son.

Ir0njack wrote:
Am I the only one who's going to point out that while genocidal when he felt it was called for, the Emperor is by no means a self proclaimed god. the Emperor in fact LOATHED religion in all forms and considered it the number one cause of mankind's past mistakes. The whole "God Emperor" funnily enough came from Lorgar one of the traitor primarchs.Ol' Empy even went so far as to raze the first world the Word Bearers brought into compliance and then berated Lorgar in its ruins front of his entire legion for spreading the "Imperial Creed" religion.

Unless it was all part of his plan to conquer the galaxy and then rise to godhood, and Lorgar was jumping the gun and needed to be reprimanded to convince people (like the high lords of Terra) that the Emperor did not want to be worshipped. For all we know the Emperor wanted the Horus Heresy to go the way it did, which would certainly explain all his terrible decisions; he could have prevented the entire Heresy if he was a little bit more honest with his sons about the nature of Chaos and what he was doing back on Terra.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Thing is, even I (read : big supporter of IT), do not understand how do miracles work while he is still walking and talking ( read : flight of E, Vulkan lives )...

Most powerful human psyker to ever live. That accounts for a lot. Actually, I think that can account for just about everything. It's an in-universe version of "a wizard did it".

That, or we remind ourselves that every single piece of fluff including the novels is "crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths". This could account for a lot, too - and it depends entirely on our personal preference whether we want to take the things we read at face value, or not. Either way, they are just one option out of many, or "a lens through which we can view the setting", as Aaron Dembski-Bowden once put it.

You know instead of having an immoble golden throne eating up psykers it would make a lot more sense if they just constructed him an "EMPEROR CLASS DREADNAUGHT ". Then he can just go ham on tzeentch armies and then just go make a deposit into the astronomicon.

 Omegus wrote:

It was a single city, but it was Monarchia, capital of the world where Lorgar was found.

Lorgar, however, fixated far less on the loss of the city and its inhabitants, or the words of his father, but rather on his perceived humiliation in front of the Perfect Son.

Monarchia is not the capital city of Colchis, it was the capital city of Khur.


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 Psienesis wrote:


Most powerful human psyker to ever live. That accounts for a lot. Actually, I think that can account for just about everything. It's an in-universe version of "a wizard did it".

Most powerful recorded psyker in history more like.

 Psienesis wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Thing is, even I (read : big supporter of IT), do not understand how do miracles work while he is still walking and talking ( read : flight of E, Vulkan lives )...

Most powerful human psyker to ever live. That accounts for a lot. Actually, I think that can account for just about everything. It's an in-universe version of "a wizard did it".

So channeling energy to other side of galaxy while in physical mode ??? WoW

 Nevelon wrote:
One thing to remember, 40K is not Good vs. Evil, it's Law vs. Chaos (to use the D&D alignment grid) The IoM is pretty solidly lawful neutral. They don't care about good and evil, as long as you tithe on time and follow the rules.

It was this during the Great Crusade. Now its Bad vs Worse.

 LoneLictor wrote:
self-proclaimed God

If the Emperor caught you saying that, you'd be spanked to death for you not listening to the thousands of times he has said that he isn't a God.

Anyways, The Emperor is a nice man compared to most men and aliens in the galaxy. If he doesn't gobble on the souls of Imperial Psykers who have failed to become sanctioned psykers (aka psykers who can fall to Chaos at any moment and cause the death of hundreds, if not thousands), he can't sustain himself. If he can't sustain himself, the Astronomicon would fail to function properly without his guidance. Without the Astronomicon, warp travel across the Imperium fail. Reinforcements and supplies would get nowhere. That alone could be the death of countless quadrillions. And don't forget that his presence on the Golden Throne keeps the Human Webway closed. If it opens, daemons swarm out of the Human Webway, and overrun Terra. Now you've lost the majority of the Imperium's leaders. Good job.

Oh, and just his presence in the galaxy with the help of the official religion established by the Ecclesiarchy with him as the central figure after his internment helps keeps Chaos suppressed (albeit only slightly).

And even before his internment, he strived to unite Humanity and ensure it's survival and prosperity. The Imperium as it is now is not the one he had envisioned. The Imperium as it is now is a defiled version of his vision, full of needless and unorganized bureaucracy, corruption, disunity and ignorance (towards things such as technology).

ChakLong wrote:

Oh, and just his presence in the galaxy with the help of the official religion established by the Ecclesiarchy with him as the central figure after his internment helps keeps Chaos suppressed (albeit only slightly).

As much as I hate the very idea of the Ecclesiarchy, I have to admit that their message is something Humanity dearly needs: you are not alone. Everyone, from the Emperor himself on the Golden Throne to lowest laborer does their part to protect the future, and Humanity stands together, and when the time comes, will fall together.

there is such a thing as a nessesary evil you know. Killing 1000 psykers every day is pretty mean, but it's nessesary to prevent demons bursting in and destroying mankind.

I'm also going to be controversial and bismarkian and say that there is no such thing as good or evil - only order and chaos. The imperium of man exists as it does because it simply wouldn't survive any other way, and i think we can all agree that the survival of tne human race is the highest moral imperative.

Plus, a thousand souls a day is nothing to the imperium. Thats probably how many people die on a hiveworld every 30 seconds.

xruslanx wrote:

I'm also going to be controversial and bismarkian and say that there is no such thing as good or evil...

Actually, there's a valid philosophical concept called cosmicism IRL that holds a similar idea that good and evil are merely Human concepts meaningless in the context of the greater universe, so it shouldn't be too controversial...at least not for me.

Emperor isn't a nice guy, yeah. He is worshipped as a god and benevolent being but behind all that is a far more sinister person. He's arrogant, apathetic, brutal, and above all else utterly militaristic. Really it reminds me of Charles Xavier in Marvel, who in recent years has been made into a darker character.

I think this quote about the Emperor (from the last priest of the last church on Terra) sums up the real Big-E nicely:

"Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man"

Whose perspective is obviously biased, seeing as the Emperor just burned down his church.

If one would incorporate that (admittedly well-written) story into their interpretation of the setting ... doesn't that line happen before the Emperor orders the razing? I vaguely recall the priest died as the Imperial forces destroyed the church, so he couldn't well think this line when the church was already burned down.

 Lynata wrote:
If one would incorporate that (admittedly well-written) story into their interpretation of the setting ... doesn't that line happen before the Emperor orders the razing? I vaguely recall the priest died as the Imperial forces destroyed the church, so he couldn't well think this line when the church was already burned down.

No, the priest thinks that as his church burns in front of him.

Ah, you're right - turns out 1d4chan actually has the entire story archived.

Well, given the incredibly narrow path for human survival that gets mentioned, the Emperor being "nice" ala baby kissing etc would get humanity a bad case of extinct.

His overall ideals are noble, unfortunately you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, particularly in grimdark 40K

Look at the xenos most of them are far less "nice" than the Imperium, and as for the absolute hypocrisy of the Tau, no they are not good, they are commies in space. I live in a former Soviet republic and for all those who think they are noble goodies, no, they are more like Stalin's USSR, great if you really tow the party line, bad luck if you don't. The greater good is for the greater good of the Ethereals, then the Tau, with the other species far down the pecking order at best.

Then there is the small matter of the Emperors 10,000 year Crucifixion and suffering the eternal pains of his mangled self in order to hold back the forces of Chaos, keep the astronomicon lit etc. He does not do it for fun, that's for sure. I suggest he would much rather go to his rest than put up with that sh*t but duty calls.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
...they are commies in space. I live in a former Soviet republic and for all those who think they are noble goodies, no, they are more like Stalin's USSR, great if you really tow the party line, bad luck if you don't. The greater good is for the greater good of the Ethereals, then the Tau, with the other species far down the pecking order at best.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I just have to say that if someone from a former Soviet republic says the Tau are space communists, then damn Kroothawk and the other Tau fanboys: Tau are space commies.

Today I just realized that I'm not a nice man because I like to eat beef burgers.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually, there's a valid philosophical concept called cosmicism IRL that holds a similar idea that good and evil are merely Human concepts meaningless in the context of the greater universe, so it shouldn't be too controversial...at least not for me.

Ha, HP Lovecraft.

Yeah, defining the Emperor by human morality IMO is always going to be hard, because despite his claims of the contrary, he is decidedly not human.


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 Lynata wrote:
If one would incorporate that (admittedly well-written) story into their interpretation of the setting ... doesn't that line happen before the Emperor orders the razing? I vaguely recall the priest died as the Imperial forces destroyed the church, so he couldn't well think this line when the church was already burned down.

Lynata liking a Horus Heresy story?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Yeah, defining the Emperor by human morality IMO is always going to be hard, because despite his claims of the contrary, he is decidedly not human.

Indeed. He's a trans-Human at best or a post-Human at worst (but definitely not a god). Either way, his level of existence and POV would not be fully comprehensible to ordinary Humans.

Either that, or the entire human race faces imminent oblivion. I guess the former seems like a better prospect wouldn't you agree? Shall I say, a lesser evil. Not much of a choice there, the Emperor is doing what he has to do.

Which is also true.

Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata liking a Horus Heresy story?

I'm not sure I agree with the Emperor's anti-religious depiction, and in general I dislike the HH series for how it apparently/occasionally attempts to turn myth and legend into a sort of "Dragonball" epic - but this one stood out in that it deals with one of those topics that are very rarely touched upon in the background of 40k as a whole, and after hearing about it I was intrigued enough to give it a read. And I would recommend it to anyone who asks. It was a refreshing change from the usual war-focused stuff that dominates the Black Library, and the "back and forth" between the only two characters was a nice read, and the ending gave me a shiver.

More like that, please. For 40k, too. The only other stories I know that remotely approach this direction are a few shorts from the "Dark Imperium" anthology - one about a teenage psyker on some feudal world being approached by a daemon, and another about a Chaos follower becoming a pawn of Tzeentch. As much as I like action, the setting has so much more to offer than war.


(although I would have argued differently had I been the priest ... in a devil's advocate kind of way, if only to hear what his opponent would have replied. this is a topic where I'd find myself firmly on the Emperor's side in real life, and I have actually had a similar debate before)

 Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata liking a Horus Heresy story?

I'm not sure I agree with the Emperor's anti-religious depiction, and in general I dislike the HH series for how it apparently/occasionally attempts to turn myth and legend into a sort of "Dragonball" epic - but this one stood out in that it deals with one of those topics that are very rarely touched upon in the background of 40k as a whole, and after hearing about it I was intrigued enough to give it a read. And I would recommend it to anyone who asks. It was a refreshing change from the usual war-focused stuff that dominates the Black Library, and the "back and forth" between the only two characters was a nice read, and the ending gave me a shiver.

So true...
I wish I had your mental strength....
Btw, you shoud really read Dune novels....