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not if he has the blood lance he isn't; match him up against horde armies and knock 'em down. One blood lance = ymgarl jeanstealer brood dead (15 models) in one go. Plus it kills CSMs too, so as long as it's protected, I'd pay 175 for that. it only needs to wipe out one squad and a bit to pay back those points, and can hold its own in CC.

I just think that for 175 is expensive for a level 1 Psyker, he should be at least level 2 so he can use his powers and activate his Force-axe.
Or use wings and a power.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
not if he has the blood lance he isn't; match him up against horde armies and knock 'em down. One blood lance = ymgarl jeanstealer brood dead (15 models) in one go. Plus it kills CSMs too, so as long as it's protected, I'd pay 175 for that. it only needs to wipe out one squad and a bit to pay back those points, and can hold its own in CC.

....wat?

1. Ymgarl Genestealers cap out at 10 man.
2. Who in god's name would line up 15 modes, base to base, in row for blood lance?
3. Blood Lance is 4D6" range line, so you are averaging 14", and you'd be lucky to hit 4 guys with that...then you have to wound, so 3-4 dead whatevers. Considering an assault cannon/stormbolter dread is going to do similar damage to genestealers, for like 70 points less....I don't know what to tell you.

Points reduction for a lot of units, devastators, death company and assault marines. Im not fussed about a new flyer really, i'd be happy with the stormtalon rolled into the codex instead of an even worse nephilim with blood drops on it. And I would also quite like vanguard vets to come WITH jump packs rather than pay for them

 sierra 1247 wrote:
Points reduction for a lot of units, devastators, death company and assault marines. Im not fussed about a new flyer really, i'd be happy with the stormtalon rolled into the codex instead of an even worse nephilim with blood drops on it. And I would also quite like vanguard vets to come WITH jump packs rather than pay for them

Not to worried about VV coming with jump packs any more. Word is that the VV themselves are cheaper in the new C:SM and their jump pack cost was cut in half. Death Company are really strong in 6th so I wouldn't expect to see too much of a point decrease, but maybe the jump pack upgrade cost will be cut down again.

I agree with whoever mentioned I5 for assault squads, but I think just getting the I5 on the charge would be enough. So much of the 5th edition BA was about getting the charge, so losing that initiative boost really hurt. Who knows what they have planned for us though.

Love the post, here is my Blood Angels wishlist:

1. Sanguinor - please add IC to join unit;pt reduction; better str or ap weapon
2. Mephiston - add IC to join unit
3. Marines - general pt reduction
4. Dante - give him weapon options like belial
5. DC - major pts reduction, 20pts for a marine with FNP and Rage? +15pts for a jump pack? and assualt marine is only 18pts / OR keep pts but give DC 2 wounds
6. Sanguinary Priest - Covert from eilite to sth like 'For every two troop choice you can take 1 priest, not restricted in the FOC chart'
7. Sanguinary Guard - allow to add +40pts per model to squad up to 10.
8. Give the BA codex a cool new edge to make them special! The 5th edition does this with Furious Change beucase it has +1 int. Without this BA losses its edge in assault. BA is an assault heavy army, we need a special edge to make them have a chance in 6th where, character sniping, overwatch, random charge, assault from stationary vehicle is limiting BA competitivness.

I've never ran the Librarian version cause I always use the frag cannon.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
Points reduction for a lot of units, devastators, death company and assault marines. Im not fussed about a new flyer really, i'd be happy with the stormtalon rolled into the codex instead of an even worse nephilim with blood drops on it. And I would also quite like vanguard vets to come WITH jump packs rather than pay for them

Devastators weapon costs will match DA and vanilla book. Cheaper base marines helps too.
ASM will be 17 each unless we get some new special rules, then they might stay at 18. Also, we will have the option of not pay 10 points for our sergeants, so that can save some points.
DC aren't getting cheaper, if anything I see them going up 2-4 points. That said, I'd expect jump packs to drop from 10 to 3-5 points. So a jetpack DC will be cheaper, but a naked DC will be more expensive.
Vanguard are going to 19 with 3 point jepacks, but lose the whole charge on deepstrike ability in the vanilla book. Expect the same for BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wufai wrote:
Love the post, here is my Blood Angels wishlist:

1. Sanguinor - please add IC to join unit;pt reduction; better str or ap weapon
2. Mephiston - add IC to join unit

Maybe on Sang, definite nope on Meph. You DO realize he's basically a Hive Tyrant in marine form right? I don't think you'd want your tyranid friends having their Tyrants join gaunt broods.....so not happening unless he take a pretty hefty nerf to his toughness and wounds.

3. Marines - general pt reduction

This is happening, see the DA and vanilla dex for an idea what they are planning.

4. Dante - give him weapon options like belial

Nope. I think it's more likely you will see EW on Dante, and his axe buffed into something useful.

5. DC - major pts reduction, 20pts for a marine with FNP and Rage? +15pts for a jump pack? and assualt marine is only 18pts / OR keep pts but give DC 2 wounds

FnP and rage....and +1WS, and +1 attack, and Fearless. Compare them to 6th edition Khorne berzerkers, the death company are WAY better.

6. Sanguinary Priest - Covert from eilite to sth like 'For every two troop choice you can take 1 priest, not restricted in the FOC chart'

Not happening.

7. Sanguinary Guard - allow to add +40pts per model to squad up to 10.

Possible, but rather pointless unless they make Sang guard actually good.

People don't really want DC to be cheaper, they want DC+JP to be cheaper.
35 points per model is really terrible for what they do, I expect them to be 25 points.

Kangodo wrote:
People don't really want DC to be cheaper, they want DC+JP to be cheaper.
35 points per model is really terrible for what they do, I expect them to be 25 points.

The rumor for C:SM is that jump pack upgrades have been reduced to 8 points per marine. That in conjunction with lower unit costs almost across the board, and 25 total points for jump pack DC sounds very possible.

Vanguard Vets have JP's for 3 points if I am correct, they also lost one point but that's probably because they can't charge after Deep Striking.
That's why I am expecting some better rules, a small increase to 22 and JP's for 3.

Kangodo wrote:
Vanguard Vets have JP's for 3 points if I am correct, they also lost one point but that's probably because they can't charge after Deep Striking.
That's why I am expecting some better rules, a small increase to 22 and JP's for 3.

Jump packs have been reduced by 7 points and I thought they were 15 points for VV, but I could be wrong as I don't use them very often.

EDIT: Now that I've gotten home and checked my codex, you are correct. The point reduction will bring it to 3 points per jump pack.

Yeah, from 10 to 3. That's indeed a 7-point reduction.
They are 19 points according to the rumours.

Biggest things for me would be:
1. Points reduction on all marines (probably gonna happen considering the DA & vanilla codex)
2. Dante & Astorath striking at initiative (might give us at least some named HQ's worth taking)
3. Assault marines having I5 on the charge like in the good old days
4. Furioso/DC with blood talons is only ap3? Its a freakin' dreadnought with power claws. Yet its armour pen is as high as a tiny guardsman wielding a powered knife... Really? AP2 seems appropriate

 Drakeslayer wrote:
not if he has the blood lance he isn't; match him up against horde armies and knock 'em down. One blood lance = ymgarl jeanstealer brood dead (15 models) in one go. Plus it kills CSMs too, so as long as it's protected, I'd pay 175 for that. it only needs to wipe out one squad and a bit to pay back those points, and can hold its own in CC.

Blood lance only inflicts one wound per unit.

Then how lucky am I? Use blood lance on infiltrating units; wipe the smile from your opponent's face as their beloved scout units appear behind your lines, only to be atomized. The answer is move the dreadnought in close so it's in base-to-base contact, then use the blood lance. If there's anything left, assault them. You just have to be lucky with the dice... and be very close to the enemy. Has anyone noticed how many similarities there are between C:BA and C:CSM? Except we have better CC units. Death company can survive up to fifty attacks from khorne berzerkers and lose one man, then hit back to demolish their opponents. Or is it just me using loaded dice?
P.S: @rossp8: does it only inflict one wound per unit? I was aware it inflicted one wound per model it passed over. Will check it though.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Then how lucky am I? Use blood lance on infiltrating units; wipe the smile from your opponent's face as their beloved scout units appear behind your lines, only to be atomized. The answer is move the dreadnought in close so it's in base-to-base contact, then use the blood lance. If there's anything left, assault them. You just have to be lucky with the dice... and be very close to the enemy. Has anyone noticed how many similarities there are between C:BA and C:CSM? Except we have better CC units. Death company can survive up to fifty attacks from khorne berzerkers and lose one man, then hit back to demolish their opponents. Or is it just me using loaded dice?
P.S: @rossp8: does it only inflict one wound per unit? I was aware it inflicted one wound per model it passed over. Will check it though.

It is one wound per model it passes over or "through", but you really shouldn't be able to line up more than 3 or possibly 4 models out of a 10 man squad. How are you wiping out entire squads with one blood lance?

"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single SX, APX hit with the 'lance' type."
Where do you see them wounding multiple models?

@Drakeslayer: "Except we have better CC units."
Since when?
Things are bad now.
Things will be terrible in two weeks when we pay 20% more than everyone else.

 Carnage43 wrote:

5. DC - major pts reduction, 20pts for a marine with FNP and Rage? +15pts for a jump pack? and assualt marine is only 18pts / OR keep pts but give DC 2 wounds

FnP and rage....and +1WS, and +1 attack, and Fearless. Compare them to 6th edition Khorne berzerkers, the death company are WAY better.

Each time someone asks for a Death Company buff/points reduction, a Khorne CSM player ragequits the hobby .

How to blood lance effectively:
Go for MASSIVE targets. I mean hordes, preferably whilst fighting on a smaller scale battlefield or with limiting terrain. It also relies heavily on how often your opponent fights against blood angels and whether they were expecting it. If they weren't then they deserve to have half their squad wiped out; noobiness is repaid in blood. if, however you are playing against a sensible player then I'd recommend having two psykers casting blood lance at the same time to maximize fatalities.
But, I'm preaching to the choir here and I mean no disrespect. it relies on luck, skill on your part and incompetence on your opponent's part. But mostly luck. As to CC units; khorne zerkers are no way near a match for death company on the charge, and if you attach a chaplain to them (why not?) then they re-roll all failed rolls to hit+ to wound on the turn when they get most attacks. It is as AtoMaki says; khorne is not nearly as killy as the blood angels. Sure the CSM armies have mutilators and warptalons, but they are pretty crap due to no long range fire.

@Drakeslayer Ya man one hit per unit. "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8 AP 1 hit with the lance type."

Give Sanguinary Guard a points reduction.

Bring the points cost of codex units (tacticals, assaults, scouts, sternguard, predators, etc.) in line with the rest of the 6th edition codexes.

Fix Dante's axe.

Either give Mephiston an AP2 weapon or drop his points.

Rework the other special HQs to fit with 6th edition. And maybe be worth something.

Give Honor Guard cheap jump packs.

Fix the Red Thirst. Needing a 1 to get Furious Charge/Fearless is basically worthless. I'd be fine with dropping Fearless and making it a 4+ or something, but as it currently stands its just irrelevant.

Probably keep Sang. Priest points the same, but drop the cost of the jump pack.

Give Baal Preds torrent.

Summary: Blood Angels aren't *terrible*, they're just waaaay over costed for 6th edition. Many of the special HQs are just gimmicky and aren't worth what you pay for them. I still love that we only scatter D6, which gives people a great reason to run assaults as troops, but in 6th edition you need a LOT of ASM to survive a heldrake, so that needs to be compensated for in some way. The only other troop swap are Sang. Guard, which with only a 2+ save, are not even remotely worth 40+ points a pop. 30, maybe.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other thing I would add is to make our Dreadnoughts worth taking. I seriously doubt they're going to buff the side armor to 13 though, so I honestly don't think it will happen, but as of now Dreadnoughts die too fast. This not just a Blood Angel problem, and they haven't fixed anything in the DA or Vanilla codexes, so I doubt it will change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did read they made Honor Guard cheaper in the Vanilla codex, which gives me a lot of hope for BA Honor Guard. I have 5 nice painted ones that I would like to use again and relive the glory days of a 5 man melta squad with FnP that only scatters 6 inches.

I stand by the fact I want Meph as an IC, here are my reasoning.

- He hogs a transport all to himself
- His default physic power gives him and his unit reroll to hit, but he can't join a unit
- When he pairs up with a unit he will be reduced to T4 due to overall T in his unit.

I also think DC should have a pt reduction, I do know about the krone CSM stats, I was thinking of a grey knight when I am making comparsion.
- DC cannot hold objectives
- one per army (of course exceptions)
- no access to special guns
compared to a 20pts grey knight who can get a free force weapon, scoring, physic ability, storm bolter. I think DC have a good reason for pt reduction (least pay less for a jump pack damnit! its making me feel my jump assuat squard is only worth 3pts)

wufai wrote:
I stand by the fact I want Meph as an IC, here are my reasoning.

- He hogs a transport all to himself
- His default physic power gives him and his unit reroll to hit, but he can't join a unit
- When he pairs up with a unit he will be reduced to T4 due to overall T in his unit.

I also think DC should have a pt reduction, I do know about the krone CSM stats, I was thinking of a grey knight when I am making comparsion.
- DC cannot hold objectives
- one per army (of course exceptions)
- no access to special guns
compared to a 20pts grey knight who can get a free force weapon, scoring, physic ability, storm bolter. I think DC have a good reason for pt reduction (least pay less for a jump pack damnit! its making me feel my jump assuat squard is only worth 3pts)

-Mephiston doesn't take a transport all to himself. He can't start in another unit's dedicated transport, but once the game starts he can go into any other unit's transport along with them provided there is space for him.
-Why would his toughness be lowered because of the squad's toughness?

Death Company don't need a point reduction, if anything they just need their jump packs to be cheaper. DC is well worth their cost, DC with jump packs are not. Compared to the Grey Knight they have +1WS, Feel No Pain, +1S from Furious Charge, Relentless, up to 5 attacks on the charge, and have access to loads of special CCWs and pistols.

 Orblivion wrote:
Why would his toughness be lowered because of the squad's toughness?

Majority toughness, as long as there are more T4 models than T6 models in the unit, T4 is used to determine what a weapon needs to roll to Wound.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Why would his toughness be lowered because of the squad's toughness?

Majority toughness, as long as there are more T4 models than T6 models in the unit, T4 is used to determine what a weapon needs to roll to Wound.

What I meant is if he were an IC and you just let him get swept up in the regular melee than you'd be using him wrong. He should be using challenges. Granted that still leaves the shooting phase, but you get what I'm saying I think.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
How to blood lance effectively:
Go for MASSIVE targets. I mean hordes, preferably whilst fighting on a smaller scale battlefield or with limiting terrain. It also relies heavily on how often your opponent fights against blood angels and whether they were expecting it. If they weren't then they deserve to have half their squad wiped out; noobiness is repaid in blood. if, however you are playing against a sensible player then I'd recommend having two psykers casting blood lance at the same time to maximize fatalities.
But, I'm preaching to the choir here and I mean no disrespect. it relies on luck, skill on your part and incompetence on your opponent's part. But mostly luck. As to CC units; khorne zerkers are no way near a match for death company on the charge, and if you attach a chaplain to them (why not?) then they re-roll all failed rolls to hit+ to wound on the turn when they get most attacks. It is as AtoMaki says; khorne is not nearly as killy as the blood angels. Sure the CSM armies have mutilators and warptalons, but they are pretty crap due to no long range fire.

I still think you don't quite get how Blood Lance works. If i were to point it at a group of Ork Boyz, let's say the line crosses over 20 models!

"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single SX, APX hit with the 'lance' type."

BAM! one hit inflicted on the entire unit
One boy dies

Now please explain how you're wiping out entire squads with Blood Lance.

 Requiem wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
How to blood lance effectively:
Go for MASSIVE targets. I mean hordes, preferably whilst fighting on a smaller scale battlefield or with limiting terrain. It also relies heavily on how often your opponent fights against blood angels and whether they were expecting it. If they weren't then they deserve to have half their squad wiped out; noobiness is repaid in blood. if, however you are playing against a sensible player then I'd recommend having two psykers casting blood lance at the same time to maximize fatalities.
But, I'm preaching to the choir here and I mean no disrespect. it relies on luck, skill on your part and incompetence on your opponent's part. But mostly luck. As to CC units; khorne zerkers are no way near a match for death company on the charge, and if you attach a chaplain to them (why not?) then they re-roll all failed rolls to hit+ to wound on the turn when they get most attacks. It is as AtoMaki says; khorne is not nearly as killy as the blood angels. Sure the CSM armies have mutilators and warptalons, but they are pretty crap due to no long range fire.

I still think you don't quite get how Blood Lance works. If i were to point it at a group of Ork Boyz, let's say the line crosses over 20 models!

"Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single SX, APX hit with the 'lance' type."

BAM! one hit inflicted on the entire unit
One boy dies

Now please explain how you're wiping out entire squads with Blood Lance.

Any model in the lance's path, as in for each model under the line...

Ok: I'm sorry about the blood lance issue. I must have misread it. Surely it would make more sense oi inflict a hit on every model though; it's a psychic lance which can skewer thing. Look, at the end of the day if you're so pissed off about it just use the sanguine sword and kill yourself a monolith. All these things I have done. Rules misinterpretations happen all the time and I'm sorry I didn't notice it sooner. Tell you what: maybe we need better psychic powers, considering there are only one or two I'd take from the BA codex: Wings and the Sanguine Sword. Everything else is comparatively weak, but then again that's why we have the psychic cards.
Quick Question: can a blood angels librarian take one power from his codex and another from the rulebook. My friend says they can't but dark angels and chaos space marines can so I'm disinclined to trust him on this one.

Unleash Rage is a decent alternative to a Chaplain or Prescience, and Fear of the Darkness (or whatever it's called) can be brutal against the right enemy, or even if you can wrangle another Ld debuff into the mix (like Eldar allies for instance).

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Quick Question: can a blood angels librarian take one power from his codex and another from the rulebook. My friend says they can't but dark angels and chaos space marines can so I'm disinclined to trust him on this one.

Nope, you can't. As BA are a 5th ed Codex you have to choose between either BA powers, or the rulebook. DA and CSM are 6th Codexes, so their books are written with the new powers in mind - those books specifically tell you you can mix and match (and I believe with CSM, you're *forced* to).