Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What legion ? After the Fang there is no legion IIRC...






I mean are they recruiting again ?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Magnus has been out and about and is a protagonist in Battle of the Fang, Chaos Child and he's featured in a Space Wolves novels although i am not sure which one it is, the one where Ragnar pokes him in the eye.

He's in two of the space wolves books - the one where he's poked in the eye and the one where Ragnar threatens to poke him in the eye *again!*.

Not the same eye!? Oh wait ...

2 times - one time Russ, one time Ragnar - guy needs to wear a helmet....

 GurneyMan wrote:
I mean are they recruiting again ?

Yes they are. Read "Masters, Bidding" short story - threr is a Thosand Sons sorcerer lord there who is from the "young" generation and he tell the stroy of his recrution before he get interrupted.
Tl/dr:
Thousand Sons do seek for a psychically gifted and healthy boys. They infuse them with gene-seed and train throug the nine hells of psychic evil Hogwards. Those young Thousand Sons get trained by the legions best Sorcerers, which impyes that even while legion get fracturd they still unite to train neophites (obviously because they aren't dumb and know that their future depends on this) At the end scholars get "tested" with some spell that suspiciously resembles scaled down Rubric. Title Sorcerer was the only one to survive in his group and receive his failed classmates as his first servants (they probably turn into golems).

So TS legion is slowly growing, and considering their overall immortality they could not being stopped from building their numbers. Cris Wright could eat gak with his "hurr durr dying fractured legion of knowledge thieves" epilogue.

The bulk of the Thousand Sons' sorcerers survived the Battle of the Fang.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The bulk of the Thousand Sons' sorcerers survived the Battle of the Fang.

In fact there is only two confirmed Sorcerer kills in the book and only one of them being permanent.
Still the book is terrible and IMO not worth being taken seriously. It includes insane ammounts of SW plot armour, fluff incostidtancy and general fanbyism.
- Grey Hunters squad rush into CC with Rubricae. Noone get killed by the soul-blasting magical bolts of doom. And then Rubricae kills half of them with a power weapon which they shouldn't have Fluff-wise.
- Grey Hunters squad rush into CC with chaos IG platoon. Noone even get wounded.
- Blood Claws squad rush into CC with chaos IG platoon. Still no casualities.
- Entire company rushes through the street under heavy auocannon fire. You guess right - noone get killed.
- Single Blood Claw (you know one of those green noobs) rushes into melee against a squad of Rubricators (hardened veterans of the Heresy) and kill dozen before falling himself.
- Bjorn shoot his assault cannon on some spireguard. Five sentences later he shoot down a robot with plasma cannon.
- BLOOD CLAW DREADNOUGHT - the stupidest thing ever.

Why can't a Rubric Marine have a power weapon?

Also, Space Marines tear through mortals (Poorly trained fodder mortals at that) like cheese in CC.

Also, that single Blood Claw was a Wulfen at the point.

Why can't a Blood Claw be a dreadnought?

It's weird that you didn't mention the worst aspect of the book. The final fight with Magnus.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why can't a Rubric Marine have a power weapon?

The same reason why tactical marines can't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, Space Marines tear through mortals (Poorly trained fodder mortals at that) like cheese in CC.

Except it was clearly stated that Spyreguard was a professional highly trained soldiers clad in carapace armour. Sure, marines poweful but not to the point of engaging 1 to 50 against highly trained and equipped mortals and suffer no casualities.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why can't a Blood Claw be a dreadnought?

Because being put into dread is an honor revered only to the heroes and veterans, not a green noobs.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's weird that you didn't mention the worst aspect of the book. The final fight with Magnus.

Because it is just too bad to evem being mentioned. Like magnus FORGETING he have a titan-killing mind-bullets and proceed killing stuff in close combat just because author want his characters to die in honor rather than being vaporized at glance.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why can't a Rubric Marine have a power weapon?

The same reason why tactical marines can't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, Space Marines tear through mortals (Poorly trained fodder mortals at that) like cheese in CC.

Except it was clearly stated that Spyreguard was a professional highly trained soldiers clad in carapace armour. Sure, marines poweful but not to the point of engaging 1 to 50 against highly trained and equipped mortals and suffer no casualities.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why can't a Blood Claw be a dreadnought?

Because being put into dread is an honor revered only to the heroes and veterans, not a green noobs.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's weird that you didn't mention the worst aspect of the book. The final fight with Magnus.

Because it is just too bad to evem being mentioned. Like magnus FORGETING he have a titan-killing mind-bullets and proceed killing stuff in close combat just because author want his characters to die in honor rather than being vaporized at glance.

A sorceror could quite easily think - I want my rubrics better armed, they'll be better bodyguards - saying they can't do this is more rules than fluff imo.

A BC dread is possible - Space Wolves never did have a normal style of promotion. How do you get to be wolf guard? you have to be best mates with the Wolf Lord

I quite liked the book but I got into the wolves in 2nd ed cause I liked space vikings. I've read worse than Battle of the Fang

I thought the fight, despite Magnus forgetting that he is a Daemon now and not shackled by mortal limitation, was pretty good. It was like Magnus showing how he didn't need his super powers to try and squash the insects, he could do it through his physical prowess alone, to an extent he was right, right up until he got beat

PredaKhaine wrote:
I want my rubrics better armed, they'll be better bodyguards

And legged, they would move faster with rollerfeet

 Pilau Rice wrote:
right up until he got beat

Except he won't get beat. Sure, he was weakened by the battle and almost exhausted, but everyone else was dead, so I cannot see how SW could tell they defeat/banish him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And legged, they would move faster with rollerfeet

Pilau, you are a mad genius.

All we need to do now is strap lasers to their heads...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
right up until he got beat

Except he won't get beat. Sure, he was weakened by the battle and almost exhausted, but everyone else was dead, so I cannot see how SW could tell they defeat/banish him.

Cos the wolves were still alive, the castle was still standing and the thousand sons had gone away?

PredaKhaine wrote:


Pilau, you are a mad genius.

All we need to do now is strap lasers to their heads...

And sharks on their arms

Actually they wouldn't need straps they would just use magic for a laser head, shark arms and rollerfeet, why they haven't thought of that sooner I don't know

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
right up until he got beat

Except he won't get beat. Sure, he was weakened by the battle and almost exhausted, but everyone else was dead, so I cannot see how SW could tell they defeat/banish him.

Cos the wolves were still alive, the castle was still standing and the thousand sons had gone away?

Yeah, that part where the Wolves survived kind of gave it away

Magnus did win though I think, he got what he wanted out of the excursion on Fenris

No more Space Wolf successor Chapters ever, ever ever ... ever ... and that they will eventually share the same fate as the Thousand Sons.

PredaKhaine wrote:
till alive, the castle was still standing and the thousand sons had gone away?

So Wolves lost entire great company, almost all of their dreads, their Great Wolf, most of their serfs and the ability to create successor chapters, while TS lost their expendable army of mortals (which was risen do be expended anyways) one Sorcerer and a bunch of robots. Entire point of this attack was not to eliminate SW or destroy the Fang but to sabotage the canis helix cure which they accomplish. Sure, Wolves could claim themselves to be the victors, but the truth is that it was the TS who won there.

 Mezmerro wrote:

The same reason why tactical marines can't.

Is there some aspect of 40k's cosmology that makes Tac Marines and Rubric Marines literally incapable of holding a power weapon? Of course not.

It would be as simple as a sorcerer handing the Rubric Marine a power weapon.

Except it was clearly stated that Spyreguard was a professional highly trained soldiers clad in carapace armour. Sure, marines poweful but not to the point of engaging 1 to 50 against highly trained and equipped mortals and suffer no casualities.

The Spireguard, yes.

Not the explicitly poorly-trained rabble that the Sons intended to literally be nothing but fodder for the Wolves to feast on as a distraction. There were more highly trained soldiers worthy of the title of Spireguard, yes, and they fared better.

Because being put into dread is an honor revered only to the heroes and veterans, not a green noobs.

A Blood Claw can not be a veteran, that is true (Well, except in the case of Lukas I guess).

They can however be heroes. That a Blood Claw could perform an act of such valiance before his fall that he might be interred into a dreadnought is not inconceivable.

Because it is just too bad to evem being mentioned. Like magnus FORGETING he have a titan-killing mind-bullets and proceed killing stuff in close combat just because author want his characters to die in honor rather than being vaporized at glance.

Yeah that was pretty gakky.

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
still alive, the castle was still standing and the thousand sons had gone away?

So Wolves lost entire great company, almost all of their dreads, their Great Wolf, most of their serfs and the ability to create successor chapters, while TS lost their expendable army of mortals (which was risen do be expended anyways) one Sorcerer and a bunch of robots. Entire point of this attack was not to eliminate SW or destroy the Fang but to sabotage the canis helix cure which they accomplish. Sure, Wolves could claim themselves to be the victors, but the truth is that it was the TS who won there.

Yeah they lost a great company - lucky for them there were another 9 or so
They lost that stupid sub plot about non wolfy space wolves.
Most of the dreads that were stationed at the fang - I can't remember if they took more dreads with the 9 great companies on that assault, but I think it would be weird if they didn't.
The 1Ksons lost the ability to act as a legion - this is their skalathrax.

The entire point of this book was Magnus attempting to get revenge on the wolves - he dressed in up in nobler motives but that was what this was about.
Thats why he beat up Russ's statue. He acheived the sub plot, but failed to beat the 100 or so wolves before they could get reinforcments.
And he had his whole legion.

Plot armour...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I thought the fight, despite Magnus forgetting that he is a Daemon now and not shackled by mortal limitation, was pretty good. It was like Magnus showing how he didn't need his super powers to try and squash the insects, he could do it through his physical prowess alone, to an extent he was right, right up until he got beat

Forgetting that he is a Daemon?

Anyway, the idea that a few Space Wolves could overwhelm a Daemon Primarch is in of itself stupid. I of course am referring to when the Wolf Lord and his entourage literally beat him through the walls. Even mortal Primarchs were more powerful than that (One recalls Curze tearing through a couple dozen elite Marines of the Emperor's Children and Imperial Fists bare-handed). Bjorn beating up Magnus in h2h was also pretty funny, considering we see him earlier in the book throw a dreadnought so hard it was incapacitated. He then punched through its sarcophagus as though it were paper and ripped the Marine out.

PredaKhaine wrote:
The 1Ksons lost the ability to act as a legion - this is their skalathrax.

Except not. Read above about young Thosand Sons. Sure, TS warcovens usually work on their own agendas, but if Magnus ever want to gather the Legion, sorcerer lords would gladly obey and form into legion again. He just have no reason to do so - he is just fine with the dozens of Warcovens roaming the Galaxy for an arcane knowledge (or just any knowledge they find) and bringing it to him.

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
The 1Ksons lost the ability to act as a legion - this is their skalathrax.

Except not. Read above about young Thosand Sons. Sure, TS warcovens usually work on their own agendas, but if Magnus ever want to gather the Legion, sorcerer lords would gladly obey and form into legion again. He just have no reason to do so - he is just fine with the dozens of Warcovens roaming the Galaxy for an arcane knowledge (or just any knowledge they find) and bringing it to him.

Is Magnus gathering his legion for the 13th black crusade? (I lost track when what happened didn't happen and the conflict didn't happen yet)

PredaKhaine wrote:
Is Magnus gathering his legion for the 13th black crusade?

In the old fluff there was mentions that yes. But in the new one i could imagine Magnus seenin BC as a pointless waste of time, as he is wise onough to know that Chaos Gods doesn;t want overal victotym but rather the endless war

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Forgetting that he is a Daemon?

Well he's not mortal anymore is he, part Daemon if that makes you happier.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
still alive, the castle was still standing and the thousand sons had gone away?

So Wolves lost entire great company, almost all of their dreads, their Great Wolf, most of their serfs and the ability to create successor chapters, while TS lost their expendable army of mortals (which was risen do be expended anyways) one Sorcerer and a bunch of robots. Entire point of this attack was not to eliminate SW or destroy the Fang but to sabotage the canis helix cure which they accomplish. Sure, Wolves could claim themselves to be the victors, but the truth is that it was the TS who won there.

Yeah they lost a great company - lucky for them there were another 9 or so
They lost that stupid sub plot about non wolfy space wolves.
Most of the dreads that were stationed at the fang - I can't remember if they took more dreads with the 9 great companies on that assault, but I think it would be weird if they didn't.
The 1Ksons lost the ability to act as a legion - this is their skalathrax.

Agree - tactical victory is on TS, but SW did beat up Mangus and destroyed them completely....
Also I don't agree with Mezmerro, this is a lose lose situation...

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Is Magnus gathering his legion for the 13th black crusade?

In the old fluff there was mentions that yes. But in the new one i could imagine Magnus seenin BC as a pointless waste of time, as he is wise onough to know that Chaos Gods doesn;t want overal victotym but rather the endless war

So, it could be said the 1Ksons did break at fenris as it was the last time they legion'd, but it didn't really have anything to do with the space wolves. Its more due to Magnus giving precisely no feths about them.

If he's not gearing up for 40KBC13 then I don't think he's going to gather his legion again. Just let them carry on bringing him new shiny things.

Random side thought - did having to go full demon primarch at fenris 3 times lessen his humanity? thus leading to him giving none of the aforementioned feths?

PredaKhaine wrote:
So, it could be said the 1Ksons did break at fenris as it was the last time they legion'd, but it didn't really have anything to do with the space wolves. Its more due to Magnus giving precisely no feths about them.

From the TS point of view being unable to develop and improve is worse than being dead, so from their perspective causing wolves to being stuck on Fenris and being stuck in the past/slowly degradating is a major victory, and the fact that wolves themselves are too ignorant to comprehend how hard they get hit only make this better.

Hm, IIRC 13th company is hunting TS in the EoT, whole chapter is at full size, Grimnar is leading the IoM forces in 13 bc, and the TS are divided, 95% of the legion dead and the rest of 5 % is controled by Tzeench...

O yeah, and Magnus is a deamon....

Yep, SW are slowly decaying...

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
So, it could be said the 1Ksons did break at fenris as it was the last time they legion'd, but it didn't really have anything to do with the space wolves. Its more due to Magnus giving precisely no feths about them.

From the TS point of view being unable to develop and improve is worse than being dead, so from their perspective causing wolves to being stuck on Fenris and being stuck in the past/slowly degradating is a major victory, and the fact that wolves themselves are too ignorant to comprehend how hard they get hit only make this better.

lol - so everyone thinks they won. Thats the best sort of battle



Thinking about "being unable to develop and improve is worse than being dead" the 1Ksons must not like themselves very much - most of their legion still fits that description

Like I said Lose - Lose is reallity....

PredaKhaine wrote:



Thinking about "being unable to develop and improve is worse than being dead" the 1Ksons must not like themselves very much - most of their legion still fits that description

PredaKhaine wrote:
Its more due to Magnus giving precisely no feths about them.

Well he does care about them. It's just both he and his sorcerers values knowledge and scholarship (improving yourself is what Tzeench is about eventually) over conquer and glory - and to gather more knowledge it is reasonable to spread into multiple small groups rather than operate as one huge legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GurneyMan wrote:
IIRC 13th company is hunting TS in the EoT

Considering noone but TS know where is the Planet of Sorcerers they need all the luck in the world to succeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GurneyMan wrote:
95% of the legion dead

Pre-Prospero burning they were the smallest legion counting around four or five thousands. After it there was near thousand left. Hundred or so went renegade with Athriman and Ammon. Still it leaves us with around 900 marines left - much more than 5%. Now add to it their neofites and they might now be near 1/2 of 1/3 of their preheresy numbers - it much bigger precentage than a SW who got from near 30 thousands preheresy to 1.3-1.6k in 40k.

 Mezmerro wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Its more due to Magnus giving precisely no feths about them.

Well he does care about them. It's just both he and his sorcerers values knowledge and scholarship (improving yourself is what Tzeench is about eventually) over conquer and glory - and to gather more knowledge it is reasonable to spread into multiple small group rather than one huge legion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GurneyMan wrote:
IIRC 13th company is hunting TS in the EoT

Considering noone but TS know where is the Planet of Sorcerers they need all the luck in the world to succeed.

Although they did find Ragnar and help him with his eye pokery - I think its quite tzeentchy. They wander round in the warp and to find the planet of the sorcerors would be to end their hunt. While on the hunt they get the freedom to do whatever they like. As most are wulfen, they can't exactly go back to the fang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 GurneyMan wrote:
95% of the legion dead

Pre-Prospero burning they were the smallest legion counting around four or five thousands. After it there was near thousand left. Hundred or so went renegade with Athriman and Ammon. Still it leaves us with around 900 marines left - much more than 5%. Now add to it their neofites and they might now be near 1/2 of 1/3 of their preheresy numbers - it much bigger precentage than a SW who got from near 30 thousands preheresy to 1.3-1.6k in 40k.

But how many of those are rubric marines?

In game terms it tends to be 1 in 10 so that could potentially be only 90 sorcerers.

@M_o True - but when they go from PoS to find trinkets...

How many members prodigal sons count ?

 Mezmerro wrote:

 GurneyMan wrote:
95% of the legion dead

Pre-Prospero burning they were the smallest legion counting around four or five thousands. After it there was near thousand left. Hundred or so went renegade with Athriman and Ammon. Still it leaves us with around 900 marines left - much more than 5%. Now add to it their neofites and they might now be near 1/2 of 1/3 of their preheresy numbers - it much bigger precentage than a SW who got from near 30 thousands preheresy to 1.3-1.6k in 40k.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Thinking about "being unable to develop and improve is worse than being dead" the 1Ksons must not like themselves very much - most of their legion still fits that description

It is true for some of the sorcerers who still seek the way to reverse Rubric. But most of them does not really care about Rubricae and some even consider it to be a good thing - they are mostly concerned about their own development. They are Chaos marines after all - being compassionate and emphatic isn't a common feat amongst them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GurneyMan wrote:
@M_o True - but when they go from PoS to find trinkets...

This is what corvidae cult is - to foresee the trap and avoid it.

 GurneyMan wrote:
How many members prodigal sons count ?

Prodigal Sons are only partially TS. Ahriman gathers lot of knowledge hungry freaks, like non-TS sorcerers, tzeench-alligned marines from renegade chapters and mortal psykers around him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GurneyMan wrote:
this is not true - 9000 of them were killed on Prospero - 1000 fled in the Eot and 4th fellowship was away and attacked by Kharn and the WE upon return...

Ah yes, GW iconic multiple contradicting fluff sources
Well, even then they suffer less loses comparing to SW.

Yeah,SW were pummeled by Alpha legion later and they had the most casualties in the great scouring, but still 20000-30000 to 5000 is a bit of hard number...