Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've got to admit that I'm falling out with Abnett more and more.

Particularly since, after reading and loving the sheer originality of Pariah... I then found out that all the - what I thought - was the most original and awesome bits... Were actually Lovecraft.

Hrmphh.

 Compel wrote:
I've got to admit that I'm falling out with Abnett more and more.

Particularly since, after reading and loving the sheer originality of Pariah... I then found out that all the - what I thought - was the most original and awesome bits... Were actually Lovecraft.

Hrmphh.

I haven't read Pariah, what are you referring to?

Abnett likes to take a lot from Lovecraft. In his Marvel days he had the actual cthulhu as a villain to the Guardians of the Galaxy/Silver Surfer/etc. Though in that story it worked out quite well.

There is nothing new under the sun. Waht matters is people taking something and using it in a cool way.

There's a difference between 'nothing new under the sun' and lifting whole reams of background about The King In Yellow and the whole thing about Queen Mab and the shadow city is another thing I found out was a direct lift.

Borrowing from Lovecraft is actually a good thing in order to circulate all that stuff to new readers, but something like “if you like this, you should read some xyz “ at the end of the book would be in order

 Melissia wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Hooray rants? I can understand why you're upset to a certain extent but Black Library isn't and likely never will be a repository of literary works and masterpieces.

Just because you're content with less doesn't mean everyone else wants to settle for eating garbage.

Well it's weird that people would subject themselves to sub-par books from Black Library when you can read much better sci-fi stories from guys like Bradbury, Asimov or Iain M. Banks' Culture series. You have a choice not to read it. It's fine to be unsatisfied but to expect quality work from GW in these recent years is kinda silly no? They've already established that they're just milking the franchise for what it's worth rather than continue it's legacy.

 Grimskul wrote:
Well it's weird that people would subject themselves to sub-par books from Black Library when you can read much better sci-fi stories from guys like Bradbury, Asimov or Iain M. Banks' Culture series. You have a choice not to read it.

It's just a shame those guys can't write about the 40k setting, you know, the setting I am interested in reading about, hence why I waded through quite a bit of the utter crap that was majority of the HH series, as well as other 40K books.

The setting is a satire/lifted from/inspired by/shamelessly ripped off from a host of other works. It's not, in an of itself, a particularly unique setting. It's simply elements from a host of other, earlier works blended together in an interesting way.

It's pulpy dystopian sci-fantasy. Also, the reference to The King In Yellow is not a Lovecraftian reference, for Lovecraft himself was referencing his contemporary, Robert W. Chambers, who wrote "The King in Yellow". Lovecraft himself was hardly unique in his creations, for he and Robert E. Howard shared a lot of settings, names, motifs and styles between their works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Chambers

 Grimskul wrote:
You have a choice not to read it.

Most of the time.... I don't. I take a look at the writing style of the first few chapters, see that it's garbage, and ignore it. There are a few gems of course, but most of it-- especially space marine fiction-- is simply bad.

 Grimskul wrote:
It's fine to be unsatisfied but to expect quality work from GW in these recent years is kinda silly

Expecting quality is what all customers should be doing.

I greatly enjoy Abnett's work, and Demski-Bowden (and McNeil, to a lesser extent). So Black Library CAN put out decent stuff. It just doesn't always choose to. And I keep going back to the HH series because the first three were actually enjoyable. It's only later that you realize the series is not going to get to the Battle for Terra anytime soon... or ever.... because now, every 40K novel it publishes falls under the Horus Heresy banner, whether it has any real connection to the Heresy or not.

If a book is going to be bad, I only ask that it find new ways to suck. I mean, surprise me with your ineptitude. If your characters simply MUST deliver one-liners before EVERY SINGLE blow, just copy all the one-liners from the villains on Hanna-Barbara's Laugh-a-Lympics.

And in the name of all that is unholy, stop using the word "judder". What kind of word is that? BL authors use the word "judder" more often than a reality show contestant says "literally."

I approve of this thread.

 Compel wrote:
There's a difference between 'nothing new under the sun' and lifting whole reams of background about The King In Yellow and the whole thing about Queen Mab and the shadow city is another thing I found out was a direct lift.

Well sir, I'm looking forward to the day you read Dune and decide to throw all your 40k products in the garbage.


Anyways, It's homage. Abnett expects his readers to be versed in the classics of the genre. Tons of stuff from the Eisenhorn/Ravenor series (and the 40k universe as a whole) is lifted straight from Lovecraft. I will forever love Graham Mcneil because he has had paragraphs of dialogue that were nothing more than verses of Slayer lyrics transcribed verbatim.

At the end of the day, just remember Black Library stories are just pulp fiction written by hacks and recycling old tropes for cheap entertainment. Also remember, that Lovecraft was basically doing the same things just 75 years earlier.

 Oakenshield wrote:
I will forever love Graham Mcneil because he has had paragraphs of dialogue that were nothing more than verses of Slayer lyrics transcribed verbatim.

lolwut?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
All the black library books I've read have no clear villain. Then again I've stuck to the HH series mostly. Russ is clearly the bigger ass between himself and Magnus, who actually acts pretty humble.
Edit: So does Russ, but he's really eager to hunt and kill his blood.
Curze is a douche through and through trying to break Vulkan to finally commit violence against him.
I don't know about this, and have never seen a villain meeting these conditions in the HH.

In most of the Horus Heresy series, it pretty clear that "the traitors are mean and evil because the hate the goodness of space emperor king jesus."

Wait, what?
Regardless of interpretation that's wrong.
Even Angron is very human and he has very legitimate cause for treachery. Why did that massive golden dick leave all my friends, followers, and warriors behind when he could've taken them with him? Horus is actually a better leader than the Emperor and he understands humanity far more.

Yeah, the HH series is pretty morally ambiguous much of the time. Not all of the time, but much of it. Ironically Lorgar, who started out as a pretty sympathetic character, has turned into the most clear-cut evil Primarch in the series imo. Him and Fulgrim.

 Oakenshield wrote:
Well sir, I'm looking forward to the day you read Dune and decide to throw all your 40k products in the garbage.


Anyways, It's homage. Abnett expects his readers to be versed in the classics of the genre.

Read it 14 years ago, actually. And I agree, much of 40k is homage to Dune. However, I've yet to read a 40k novel set on Arrakis where the heroes attempt to overthrow the chaos baron Harkonnen with the help of the exiled Governors son, Paul Atreides. THAT's how bad I felt Pariah was.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Oakenshield wrote:
I will forever love Graham Mcneil because he has had paragraphs of dialogue that were nothing more than verses of Slayer lyrics transcribed verbatim.

lolwut?

'What are you going to do with us?' shouted Vaanes, struggling helplessly in the grip of a tall, black-robed monster that
travelled on hissing mechanical legs, reverse jointed like those of a Sentinel.
'We are the surgeons of demise.' said the monster. 'Monarchs to the kingdom of the dead. Will show you the meaning of
pain. Abacinate you then open you up with knives. Take what we want. Make your flesh our own.'

From Dead Sky Black Sun. I know he left other easter eggs for metal fans as well.

 Oakenshield wrote:

 Compel wrote:
There's a difference between 'nothing new under the sun' and lifting whole reams of background about The King In Yellow and the whole thing about Queen Mab and the shadow city is another thing I found out was a direct lift.

Well sir, I'm looking forward to the day you read Dune and decide to throw all your 40k products in the garbage.


Anyways, It's homage. Abnett expects his readers to be versed in the classics of the genre. Tons of stuff from the Eisenhorn/Ravenor series (and the 40k universe as a whole) is lifted straight from Lovecraft. I will forever love Graham Mcneil because he has had paragraphs of dialogue that were nothing more than verses of Slayer lyrics transcribed verbatim.

At the end of the day, just remember Black Library stories are just pulp fiction written by hacks and recycling old tropes for cheap entertainment. Also remember, that Lovecraft was basically doing the same things just 75 years earlier.

Well, I read “DUNE “years ago and I still like me some 40k.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Well it's weird that people would subject themselves to sub-par books from Black Library when you can read much better sci-fi stories from guys like Bradbury, Asimov or Iain M. Banks' Culture series. You have a choice not to read it.

It's just a shame those guys can't write about the 40k setting, you know, the setting I am interested in reading about, hence why I waded through quite a bit of the utter crap that was majority of the HH series, as well as other 40K books.

Well, it would be quite tricky to get them to. Though an introduction saying "we wrote this book entirely using a Ouija board" would be pretty Grimdark.

The Dune books simply rocked... Right until Herbert died. His son has been little more than a hack trading on daddy's name and success. I just wish Frank would have been around long enough to finish the series himself.

Yes, I have signed first editions of the first 5 books. And yes, like every single author out there even he borrowed heavily from others.

a fat guy wrote:
According to 40K, Chaos Space Marines are the baddies.

And out of what novels I have read about them (Night Lords trilogy, Iron Warriors omnibus) I can't remember any character that gives off the vibe that you describe OP.

As others have said, perhaps you need to branch out a bit more? Let's not forget that stereotype that "The twelve-year olds all play space marines". Perhaps GW think this too and are trying to relate this to those fans in a simplistic way, such as you are describing.

Simple fans, simple plot, simple one-dimensional characters that the fans can relate to. Simple stuff!

If you're a marine player, please don't be offended by what I've said by the way.

But they're not the villains of their own story. Even though they're the villains in the larger scope, he's referring to story-level villains. i.e. what are referred to as "antagonists". Which is entirely subjective to whoever the book is following.

clively wrote:
The Dune books simply rocked... Right until Herbert died. His son has been little more than a hack trading on daddy's name and success. I just wish Frank would have been around long enough to finish the series himself.

Yes, I have signed first editions of the first 5 books. And yes, like every single author out there even he borrowed heavily from others.

Chapterhouse was the end. I must admit I did like the prequel house books a bit though, but the whole butlerian jihad and that garbage that was post chapterhouse...

Offensive.

 Compel wrote:
I fire my mass reactive round while releasing a wet leopard growl!

This made me literally LOL!!

Why exactly a wet leopard growls any differently from a dry one is beyond me

Too be fair, nearly every black library book I have read (With the exception of Path of the Farseer, not enough action) I have really enjoyed. The thing is though, I only bought books that I thought I would enjoy or have been told by others I would enjoy.

Ciaphius Cain? Fun, for a teen, I really enjoyed them. The only problem is some of the material is recycled EVERY SINGLE BOOK. Eldar Path series. Honestly rather bland, but it wasn't terrible. I liked the insight path of the outcast gave a lot. Dark Eldar path books (Including Masque the Vyle)? Simply AMAZING. Great Characters, great setting and a very Dark Eldar-y storyline. Inquisitor Eisenhorn? I think we can all agree they are one of the biggest successes of BL and I am looking forward to getting my hands on Ravenor.

None of them had the kind of Characters you described (Well, Ciaphius Cain did once, but it actively made fun of the fact) and all where engaging. I believe the problem may lie simply with Marine novels, which I guessed would be nothing but bolter porn before I was 12, so I didn't read them. Simple, read what you think you will like.

I love me some bolterporn. I have small children so the only time i really get to read is, as they would say in black library books "during my daily ablutions". I like that i dont have to think too much and i dont miss a whole lot when i briefly skim a paragraph or two to get to the parts about the guys i wanna read about. Who cares what Honsou is crying about skip to the next section so i can see what my most favorite LGBT couple in the galaxy, Uriel and Pasanius are up to. I also really love the audio dramas. If i wanted literature i would read that but i want some pulp and action. Its a fun read and is easy on the thought processors.



Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


ADB has like one good book series. The Night Lords trilogy. His work is highly variable in quality otherwise. He doesn't deserve to be brought up in the same sentence as Dan Abnett....

Interesting, and debatable, but I can see your point.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

...Or Graham McNeill, for that matter.

Ah.

Credibility lost.

ADB has like one good book series. The Night Lords trilogy. His work is highly variable in quality otherwise. He doesn't deserve to be brought up in the same sentence as Dan Abnett. Or Graham McNeill, for that matter.

yep. LOVED that Ultramarines script. Abnett really nailed it.
McNeill? One really good Iron Warriors book. After that all of his work runs together into the same colorless tasteless gruel the authors always describe CSM slaves as eating.

I will give you ADB though. His Nightlords books were amazing, but, IMO the rest of his work is just average. Not bad, just not the transcendent works of literary brilliance they are often made out to be.


To the OP:

That was hillarious and entirely too close to being accurate!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion.

Permission to sig this?

Tycho wrote:

ADB has like one good book series. The Night Lords trilogy. His work is highly variable in quality otherwise. He doesn't deserve to be brought up in the same sentence as Dan Abnett. Or Graham McNeill, for that matter.

yep. LOVED that Ultramarines script. Abnett really nailed it.
McNeill? One really good Iron Warriors book. After that all of his work runs together into the same colorless tasteless gruel the authors always describe CSM slaves as eating.

I will give you ADB though. His Nightlords books were amazing, but, IMO the rest of his work is just average. Not bad, just not the transcendent works of literary brilliance they are often made out to be.


To the OP:

That was hillarious and entirely too close to being accurate!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion.

Permission to sig this?

Be my guest

 Melissia wrote:
There is nothing new under the sun. Waht matters is people taking something and using it in a cool way.

Doesn't that make it new? Can't you also just make it new by adding on more stuff, or removing it. This is basically incorrect.