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Thanks for the feedback, I had thought about it but.. riding up the flank to 6 dice a purple sun down an armies flank sounds like a blast/worth trying. Reliably getting to cast S7 banishment probably better.

That was my reasoning for doubling up on the death wizards on steeds, which in hindsight may be overkill.

I don't know about 2 casket of souls. You don't get the benefit from their +PD twice. It's not cheap. And it's only awesome if you're facing an army that can fail the LD.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't know about 2 casket of souls. You don't get the benefit from their +PD twice. It's not cheap. And it's only awesome if you're facing an army that can fail the LD.

Good to know. I was under the impression You could use them both.

10 archers is WAY too small to bunker all those priests in. 5 horse archers is even worse. My 20-archer bunker could wipe each of those out in a single round of smited shooting.

If you're going to run that many chariots, at least give one of them a rank. 6 chariots, run 3x2, will do 3d6 S5 impact hits. That's enough that it might actually do some damage to monsters and the like. Give it a flaming banner for extra utility.

Also, this list has WAY too many resources competing for a limited pool of power dice. Not to mention that you can't have a level 3 as your hierophant unless he's the highest level wizard in your army (which the light hlp is in your list).

I'd suggest running two level 4's, swapping the level 2's for 3x level 1 for s7 banishment, dropping one of the caskets (I'd only run double casket with Arkhan), combining 6 chariots into one unit and trading the other 3 for more archers.

Otherwise list looks solid.

A chariot unit of 7 is reportedly the most efficient for points. That way you get 4D6 S5 hits (since you have a complete back rank) and that sort of damage will evaporate most anything.

I'd personally want more combat blocks, as ours die kinda fast, but that is probably just how I like to play.

If you do not want to run the light council, which is perfectly viable, combine two units of chariots (1 of 6 with flame banner) for the bonus on impact hits. str 5 impact hits with flaming can knock regen off of anything.

Leaves you one unit of 3 chariots (which is OK), enough chaff (carrion and mounted bowmen), and a few combat threats.

Like someone mentioned, though, two catapults are better than 1! Maybe find another catapult and add more archers to that mage bunker! Add at least an earthing rod to your general and maybe the channeling staff to another wizard.

Good start to an army I think!

dang! lots of advice here. I dropped horse archers, bumped up bunkers to 10 archers / 20 archers so have 2 now as well. I still wanna use all 9 chariots, as I don't wanna steal any more night goblins from my NG army.

I gave up 3 units of 3, and went to 1 unit of 6, and 1 of 3. Put a command minus champ on the unit of 6.

dropped 2nd casket and switches to 3 lvl 1 light, and 2 lvl 4s as suggested.

I still feel death would be a valuable asset to army but unsure of how to fit it in. I could drop the hierotitan, but really makes the lvl 1's hard to cast with?

Still haven't found points for 2nd catapult either, unless I drop titan, or 3 carrion

The light council seems fun, but I get bored playing my O&G from lack of multiple lores sometimes? I see having that option outside of a wizard hat as something I would want to explore as I have the opportunity?

Found some awesome box art of the old undead chariots, gonna pose my undead BFSP goblins the same way!

skyfi wrote:
dang! lots of advice here. I dropped horse archers, bumped up bunkers to 10 archers / 20 archers so have 2 now as well. I still wanna use all 9 chariots, as I don't wanna steal any more night goblins from my NG army.

I gave up 3 units of 3, and went to 1 unit of 6, and 1 of 3. Put a command minus champ on the unit of 6.

dropped 2nd casket and switches to 3 lvl 1 light, and 2 lvl 4s as suggested.

I still feel death would be a valuable asset to army but unsure of how to fit it in. I could drop the hierotitan, but really makes the lvl 1's hard to cast with?

Still haven't found points for 2nd catapult either, unless I drop titan, or 3 carrion

The light council seems fun, but I get bored playing my O&G from lack of multiple lores sometimes? I see having that option outside of a wizard hat as something I would want to explore as I have the opportunity?

Found some awesome box art of the old undead chariots, gonna pose my undead BFSP goblins the same way!

Death really isn't beneficial to the army as you have low LD overall, so the spell you default to, whilst being one of the best in the lore, doesn't really reach it's peak effectiveness. Now, the light sig, on the other hand provides you with even more ranged power, and can be a S6 magic missile.

Drop three carrion for the second catapult. They're really good.

Sure the light council seems like it is only ranged, but failing that, you can push snakes at people and make them WS10 and I10 and ASF.

Death is powerful, but TK really needs the Nek lore (IMHO) to actually have a chance. It is specifically tailored for them. In terms of buffing their army, I do not believe a better lore exists in the game--for them. There are better lores at blasting enemies, but not ones for keeping your troops walking.

A spell that is +1 attack, a spell that is KB. Both of which, incidentally, heal the unit. That's huge.

Most of your power dice are going to be spent casting Nek spells, healing your troops, getting them from point a to point b.

Thanks for all the advice guys, I don't have the slightest clue what I'm doing really, just excuse for night goblin-undead-chariot festivities. I was thinking a 6 diced purple sun down flank would net more points than miscasting dead caster, or at least provide target saturation? Seeming like consensus is to ditch death, which to me is making me scratch my head because of catapults + doom an darkness? fate and purple sun would be great to get, but eh.. I do see the point of how the default light spell is better suited.

I have only had chance to play against TK once or twice as not many people run them at my FLGS, so pardon my expansive ignorance!!

So there are essentially three different magic "builds" when it comes to TK and the lores: Nehek+Light, Nehek+Death, and Arkhan (straight death).

Nehek+Light goes well with hordes of archers, TG, and snakes, since each of these does really well with the light buffs (extra speed, extra attacks, protection, etc.) Snakes get +2A each from smiting/timewarp, since each the rider and the snake get an extra attack. Also snakes have poor leadership so tend to be going simultaneously or last: getting those attacks in first can be great!

The light council is a subset of this list, and is actually really awesome. Not only do you get S7 banishment, but also an additional 3 kicks at shem's on a single die. That's some pretty wicked firepower (especially against our nemesis VC).

Nehek+Death is another favourite. The character snipes are a great tool for an army that can have trouble dealing with nasty characters. Spirit Leech is tough unless you've brought a King along for LD10, but PSun is great, D&D goes well with the casket, Soulblight is awesome and stacks with Desiccation. Etc.

Arkhan is an entirely different beast altogether. Taking him means you swap your hierophant's Nehek magic for death, meaning that you can do...well really whatever you want. You can even go straight Death if you want, and not even take another caster.

However, be careful on taking much more than this. It may seem like casket+hierotitan+channels will give you a lot of resources, but they only go so far. You'll have a lot of 5-dice magic phases where you'll end up with 1,000+ points essentially sitting idle.

Also don't forget that your Hierotitan has spirit leech as a bound spell, and gets to use your general's leadership if he's within range. It's a powerlevel 4 bound spell so you can even throw 1 die at it for 50/50 odds.

If an army has a custom list available only to it, it is almost always better than the BRB lists. Because everyone can use the BRB lists, so they have to have a certain un-uberness. The exceptions are when armies are prevented from using the BRB, their army lists are often suckier (IMHO), like O&G, DoC, etc.

I thought of a decent analogy for spell lists in WHFB. I was at a local fair a few weeks ago. Little children were allowed to throw 5 darts for $2 to try and pop a balloon. But adults were allowed only 2. TK are little children and they are given access to a "better" spell list because their units are so suck. By using the BRB spells you are giving up the 5 darts you get and taking what everyone else has access to even though your units are often worse comparison-wise.

My problem with tomb guard is that everyone and their mother knows just how deadly that unit really is. With only movement 4 and only one way to get the model to move faster means that it'll probably never reach combat. Which is frustrating.

The light council could help by doubling their movement and hopefully get them into combat faster.

We'll see. I'm debating 2x4 Snakes or a horde of 30 Tomb Guard + Tomb King.


something like this:


Lvl 4 (Heirophant) - 210
Lvl 4 (Lore of Light), Scroll - 235

Lvl 1 (Light)
Lvl 1 (Light)
Lvl 1 (Light)

Tomb Prince w. Armor of Silvered Steel, Great Weapon, Dragon Bane Gem - 154

20x Archers w. Banner
20x Archers. Banner
30x Archers w. Banner
10x Archers
10x Archers
10x Archers

4x Necropolis Knights w. Standard, Musician - 280
20x Tomb Guard w. Full Command - 290

Casket of Souls
Hierotitan
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult

2499/2500


Yeah that's 100 archers... it's a pretty easy swap to get them back to 6 chariots if i feel i need the punch. Knights and Tomb Guard park in front of the coven of light and archer shooting of ridiculousness. Str 7 banishment is to merely draw dice. Hope for the light buffs + smiting.

Thoughts?

But Tomb Guard aren't deadly. Sure they're strength 5, but it doesn't help if they can't survive long enough to strike back. Their Weapon Skill is also an issue. Grave Guard have the Banner of the Barrows, Necropolis Knights are 3+ armour MC, etc. If they had heavy armour, they might be on par with other specials, but as it stands, if you look at other specials in the book, let alone the rest of the game, you see how subpar, and magic reliant they are.

Look at Necropolis Knights. They are the same statline as a Tomb Guard, have 3 wounds, a 3+ save, and higher movement. The light buffs also make them amazing, but they aren't reliant on them, whereas tomb guard are.

The Tomb Guard have more wounds per point that our other combat blocks. With the same toughness as Snakes, against many opponents (especially anything with S5+) you'll lose less points per enemy swing than you would with the Snakes.

Of course, Tomb Guard are also quite fragile and do indeed die fast; but so does everything in the book. Tomb Guard just are felt to put out the damage and receive it well enough to be the best combat block.

Snakes sacrifice the sheer mass (wounds and attacks) of the Tomb Guard in order to have better speed and armour. I don't think that either unit is necessarily "better" than the other; they both have solid uses. For your list, I'd probably prefer Snakes - if only because they have a wider frontage, meaning that they'll block access to your army better. Snakes are felt to be a better match for Light Magic as well, since you don't care as much about the lack of healing. Also you'll then be able to drop the Prince. If you leave the Prince and Tomb Guard at home, you have enough points for two units of 5 Snakes.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Look at Necropolis Knights. They are the same statline as a Tomb Guard, have 3 wounds, a 3+ save, and higher movement. The light buffs also make them amazing, but they aren't reliant on them, whereas tomb guard are.

You can't just say look at their stats. You need to look at stats:cost.

Knights are 6x more expensive. That means the same cost of a Knight you're getting DOUBLE wounds, about same attacks (stomp), some less WS, about half attacks have 1 less S, 3 less M, 4 more killing blows but 3 less Poison, worse armor save.

So they are actually very close overall because the TG have way more wounds but less armor. But the TG resurrect easier and they buff easier. +1 attack on TG and +1 KB is way more effective. Knights can somewhat do what TG can, but they're not going to hold up as well and buff as well. Knights are the standard MC of 8th, they are meant to work solo somewhat and get around quickly and put down some hurt (and take it with armor). But a horde of TG with 5+ KB and 2 attacks at S5 can do some serious slaughtering.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Look at Necropolis Knights. They are the same statline as a Tomb Guard, have 3 wounds, a 3+ save, and higher movement. The light buffs also make them amazing, but they aren't reliant on them, whereas tomb guard are.

You can't just say look at their stats. You need to look at stats:cost.

Knights are 6x more expensive. That means the same cost of a Knight you're getting DOUBLE wounds, about same attacks (stomp), some less WS, about half attacks have 1 less S, 3 less M, 4 more killing blows but 3 less Poison, worse armor save.

So they are actually very close overall because the TG have way more wounds but less armor. But the TG resurrect easier and they buff easier. +1 attack on TG and +1 KB is way more effective. Knights can somewhat do what TG can, but they're not going to hold up as well and buff as well. Knights are the standard MC of 8th, they are meant to work solo somewhat and get around quickly and put down some hurt (and take it with armor). But a horde of TG with 5+ KB and 2 attacks at S5 can do some serious slaughtering.

TG can do some damage, but they die far too quickly to be reliant. Even if they hit combat, they then have to endure the opponent's attacks before they strike. And in a game dominated by WoC and HE, they won't have many models left by the time they strike.

They don't die more quickly. They have twice the wounds per the same cost. Against high strength enemies they die much slower. Against units with 4S, such as themselves, they die EXACTLY THE SAME.

Saying they have to endure the enemy is disingenuous because your entire army is likely moving up together. You can move knights up solo and they will get butchered to focused fire as the rest of your army ambles up. Again, knights don't get healed or buffed nearly as well, especially if you went rambo out of range of your casters who are sticking with your main army.

Your meta might be "dominated by woc and he" but that's you. It's a rather meaningless statement. I haven't seen HE on the table since the new release. There's plenty of armies in the game.

Knights are fine. They aren't TG. They do different things. Saying Knights are better than TG simply isn't true.

DukeRustfield wrote:
They don't die more quickly. They have twice the wounds per the same cost. Against high strength enemies they die much slower. Against units with 4S, such as themselves, they die EXACTLY THE SAME.

Saying they have to endure the enemy is disingenuous because your entire army is likely moving up together. You can move knights up solo and they will get butchered to focused fire as the rest of your army ambles up. Again, knights don't get healed or buffed nearly as well, especially if you went rambo out of range of your casters who are sticking with your main army.

Your meta might be "dominated by woc and he" but that's you. It's a rather meaningless statement. I haven't seen HE on the table since the new release. There's plenty of armies in the game.

Knights are fine. They aren't TG. They do different things. Saying Knights are better than TG simply isn't true.

I agree the units do different things. TG die. Knights kill things.

The reason Knights are more competitive is that they have a larger threat range, can use the same buffs TG rely on(But don't need them), and they're pretty decent MC.

Mathematically they are almost exactly the same. You've stated nothing to counter this except to say nuh uh. TG don't "rely on" buffs any more than Knights. Again, they are almost exactly identical. They just get more more benefit from the same buffs. A Knight unit can only ever be healed 1 wound, which is 21.6 pts, TG will be healed on avg for 33 pts and minimum of 22.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Mathematically they are almost exactly the same. You've stated nothing to counter this except to say nuh uh. TG don't "rely on" buffs any more than Knights. Again, they are almost exactly identical. They just get more more benefit from the same buffs. A Knight unit can only ever be healed 1 wound, which is 21.6 pts, TG will be healed on avg for 33 pts and minimum of 22.

Tomb Guard are literally grave guard with less armour. I have never heard anyone complain of grave guard having too little armour. It is often the opposite if anything.

And to prove that. I've had 11 models keep a unit of 30 grave guard out of the game for 3 turns. Imagine what would have happened if they were tomb guard.


You keep coming back with the healing thing. Yes Knights heal less. But they die far less too. And without Light Buffs, you can't really do much with Tomb Guard. As I said, they're grave guard with less armour, and you never see grave guard without the Banner of the Barrows. Without that, Tomb Guard rely on the WS10 buff, because they die in droves without it. Whereas Knights have the movement, and armour to get into position and do damage without it, and survive long enough to keep doing damage. The reason people take 15 Necroknights is because it is by far the best combination for specials in the boo, sheerly because of the damage they pump out, their resilience in comparison to everything else in the book, and their threat radius. The only other unit in the book that can accomplish any of those are chariots. Which are notoriously fragile.

They don't die less. They die exactly the same. The have half the wounds per cost and 3+ armor. So vs. <4S the Knights save 16% better, at 4S they save the same and for every point over 4S they save 16% worse.

Grave Guard is another army. Knights are sucky Mournfang. But Mournfang is another army. You don't compare 1:1 models in other armies because that's not how they are balanced.

Sheerly isn't a word. But "the damage they pump out" is that of TG. The only difference is when they have different footprints. A Knight can put more hits in a smaller area. When you're talking 15 knights(!) TG put out more hits because the knights get less than half supporting attacks. If it's a gigantic horizontal line against 15 similar MI/MC then the knights would have the advantage, but you're never going to see that.

GW has calculators too, you know. They didn't just go, oh, hay, let's make some MC that makes the other units obsolete because we don't want to sell models.

Knights are good troops. They don't universally do more dmg or take more dmg than TG per cost.

On my part, I saw TG do very well, you put a Tomb King in there to have high WS, keep a Necrotect on the corner and kill stuff with KB and S5 ...
Sure it's expensive, but it's hard to remove as most things don't want to go into CC with them even without buffs
OTOH, I saw Snakes being raped repeatedly by cannons and Lore of Metal (as it's a common lore in the meta and they're the only good target)
Necroknights make better offensive units due to their speed, TG make better defensive units due to their wound count and their footprint

TanKoL wrote:
On my part, I saw TG do very well, you put a Tomb King in there to have high WS, keep a Necrotect on the corner and kill stuff with KB and S5 ...
Sure it's expensive, but it's hard to remove as most things don't want to go into CC with them even without buffs

I've seen that unit removed in a round.

And there were no superspells involved. Extra attack on Black Guard and soulblight. Thirty Tomb Guard went down to like, two.

On the other hand. I've seen Knights tear through an entire Dark Elf army.

Well, I already murdered White Lions, unkillable Tzeench Lords, maneaters and such with Slaves
does it means it was normal? No of course not

Yes black guards with Cauldron + magical support will put the hurt on Tomb Guards, but if you pit them against TG with King + magical support (so that it's the same amount of points involved on each side), the combat is close to a draw with 30 on each side
Meanwhile Snakes will get gutted by Black Guard, leaving only one or two out of 5 to strike back

Different jobs, different role, different use
Your experience of TG is bad while your experience of Snakes is good, we all get that. Doesn't mean it's the one and only truth

TanKoL wrote:
Well, I already murdered White Lions, unkillable Tzeench Lords, maneaters and such with Slaves
does it means it was normal? No of course not

Yes black guards with Cauldron + magical support will put the hurt on Tomb Guards, but if you pit them against TG with King + magical support (so that it's the same amount of points involved on each side), the combat is close to a draw with 30 on each side
Meanwhile Snakes will get gutted by Black Guard, leaving only one or two out of 5 to strike back

Different jobs, different role, different use
Your experience of TG is bad while your experience of Snakes is good, we all get that. Doesn't mean it's the one and only truth

I've fought Snakes with black guard 10 times. Without mindrazor. The snakes win. Hands down.

With buffs, yes the TG will become good. But with their buffs, the black guard will destroy them. My point is, that whilst they resurrect easily, they die faster than you bring back. Not to mention that they can be taken down at range much easier than snakes.

I've fought Snakes with black guard 10 times. Without mindrazor. The snakes win. Hands down.

With only the +1A from the Cauldron (didn't do the math with other parameters), 30 BG will inflict 11.111 unsaved wounds on the snakes, that's nearly 4 dead
That leaves ... let's say 3 snakes out of 6 in this case, they will kill about 6 BG
The remaining snakes go poof or close enough
Exactly like the TG ... well except worse (but faster and more subject to cannons / Metal)
Guess your BG have a phobia of dead snakes

TanKoL wrote:

I've fought Snakes with black guard 10 times. Without mindrazor. The snakes win. Hands down.

With only the +1A from the Cauldron (didn't do the math with other parameters), 30 BG will inflict 11.111 unsaved wounds on the snakes, that's nearly 4 dead
That leaves ... let's say 3 snakes out of 6 in this case, they will kill about 6 BG
The remaining snakes go poof or close enough
Exactly like the TG ... well except worse (but faster and more subject to cannons / Metal)
Guess your BG have a phobia of dead snakes

You are aware you can't physically take 30 Black Guard, right? Capped at 20.

You can take several unit to make up for that shortfall
My point still stands !

Odd, any time I've fought Tomb Guard, they have been WS5 or WS6 from the prince/king.
Anytime I've fought the Knights they are WS3.

Sure graveguard get +1 to hit for 50 points; but Tomb Guard effectively get +1 to hit, and -1 to be hit for having the higher weapon skill.