The Best Bikes: White Scars vs Ravenwing

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**lord_blackfang**

So how long before the Darkshroud gets errata'd to only affect units from the same codex, like almost every other area buff nowadays?

**Krellnus**

It isn't already? That is a bit odd.

**jamin484**

Dark Shorud grants stealth to 'friendly units' as it stands.

**Kangodo**

How big is that thing actually?
I might convert it to a Landspeeder Storm if they ever change that rule.

**Ir0njack**

So a little off topic but still having to do with bikes and not wanting to start a whole new topic. The khan on a bike +2bike squads as a ally for my IG, will they be able to effectively keep a riptide or two busy while I rain hell down on the rest of a tau army?

**Kangodo**

You'd have to make sure the Riptide doesn't shoot them when they have two ML's on them, or they all die.

**Breng77**

In a land of eldar and tau the dark shroud is garbage....units that ignore cover blow it away quick.

**Godless-Mimicry**

lord_blackfang wrote:
So how long before the Darkshroud gets errata'd to only affect units from the same codex, like almost every other area buff nowadays?

Considering the Dark Angels FAQ didn't do it already, I wouldn't count on it happening at all. That was always one of those things that GW would FAQ first.

**Kangodo**

Breng77 wrote:
In a land of eldar and tau the dark shroud is garbage....units that ignore cover blow it away quick.

I think people are really underrating coversaves.
They still need two Markerlights for it, so your goal should be to focus those providers first.

That's why Thunderfire Cannons are going to be really strong.

**Breng77**

2 hits is hardly a lot. And what about eldar? They auto kill it turn 1.

**jamin484**

Breng77 wrote:
2 hits is hardly a lot. And what about eldar? They auto kill it turn 1.

They use their shield and then lose the best tank in the game. I love it when people make the mistake of shooting their serpent shield at my crappy wee dark shroud. I would swap a dark shroud for a wave serpent any day. The really silly thing is they've wasted that shot on something that has no offensive output. The shroud is great because people either shoot at it (which is great, as its basically a wasted shot whether you kill it or not) or they don't (which is great because it jumps about helping anyone who is not in combat, which should be almost no one in the enemy shooting phase due to hit and run). In my experience, you only need the cover save for the first turn, after that you can hide in combat.

**Red Corsair**

Something key I noticed is that the white scars have +1 to jink, not skilled rider. This is important when you consider that they have a supplement on the horizon and may have a unique bike unit of character who also grants skilled rider, or you can use allies to get the rule on a unit meaning they have a great jink save. Imagine a WS command with khan sammy and grav guns... pretty awesome.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Breng77 wrote:
2 hits is hardly a lot. And what about eldar? They auto kill it turn 1.

Do they? What guns do they have that can shoot units that are out of line of sight?

**Pony_law**

Kangodo wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
In a land of eldar and tau the dark shroud is garbage....units that ignore cover blow it away quick.

I think people are really underrating coversaves.
They still need two Markerlights for it, so your goal should be to focus those providers first.

That's why Thunderfire Cannons are going to be really strong.

Agreed, here are the questions to ask any tau player 1) what units have marker lights? 2) which model has the wargear that lets you ignore cover if he doesn't shoot? 3) which units have SMS.

Get those answers and target priority for a marine player immediately becomes 1) highest concentration of marker lights 2) the commander with the buff and his unit.

If you take away tau's marker lights the effectiveness of their shooting drops dramatically. High volume doesn't really matter if its 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound and 1/3 kill. At that point it's 12 shots per dead bike. Overwatch against a bike is a joke without marker lights to boot the effectiveness, 1/6 x 1/2 x 1/3 +36 shots before you have a dead bike. Stay out of double tap range for the one turn of shooting you need to take at full BS before charging and you will hit the line with plenty to maul all of their troops. Tau are good because of their ability to ignore large sections of the games basic mechanisms (the to hit roll and cover). If you take that away from them (and 60" range thunderfires are great for doing this), they fold really quickly.

**Big Blind Bill**

As it stands right now, obviously Whitescars are far superior to ravenwing. The relentless gav guns alone make up a lot of this. Once grav guns (hopefully) get added to codex DA the gap will be smaller. (They might also get some faq love to stop them ignoring vehicle cover and to clarify if they remove 3 hull points from 2 shots, if this happens then whitescars lose a little power) But even then the huge cost difference in bikes, as well as the fact that whitscars bikes have better special rules, will still give given them an advantage.

For me, my disappointment (besides the huge shafting codex DA got) comes from the fact that code DA cannot take landspeeder storm scouts. DA ravenwing allies could be cool, but I really dont want to take a unit of marines or scouts on foot, kind of ruins the theme imo. (Also the scouts would be great for getting to objectives which people put on the 2nd floor to annoy bike armies.)

Prescience Libby, a ravenwing command squad, landspeeder storm with scouts and a darkshroud would be my perfect allies for a whitescars list.

**Rezyn**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
As it stands right now, obviously Whitescars are far superior to ravenwing. The relentless gav guns alone make up a lot of this. Once grav guns (hopefully) get added to codex DA the gap will be smaller. (They might also get some faq love to stop them ignoring vehicle cover and to clarify if they remove 3 hull points from 2 shots, if this happens then whitescars lose a little power) But even then the huge cost difference in bikes, as well as the fact that whitscars bikes have better special rules, will still give given them an advantage.

For me, my disappointment (besides the huge shafting codex DA got) comes from the fact that code DA cannot take landspeeder storm scouts. DA ravenwing allies could be cool, but I really dont want to take a unit of marines or scouts on foot, kind of ruins the theme imo. (Also the scouts would be great for getting to objectives which people put on the 2nd floor to annoy bike armies.)

Prescience Libby, a ravenwing command squad, landspeeder storm with scouts and a darkshroud would be my perfect allies for a whitescars list.

As awesome as that sounds, and as much as I would like that, i doubt DA's will get the landspeeder storms or the grav guns. I just dont see them FAQing that into our dex. I have been wrong before, but that would be a pretty huge FAQ addition to a previously released codex. Not sure I have seen that happen to often.

**Big Blind Bill**

Rezyn wrote:
Big Blind Bill wrote:
As it stands right now, obviously Whitescars are far superior to ravenwing. The relentless gav guns alone make up a lot of this. Once grav guns (hopefully) get added to codex DA the gap will be smaller. (They might also get some faq love to stop them ignoring vehicle cover and to clarify if they remove 3 hull points from 2 shots, if this happens then whitescars lose a little power) But even then the huge cost difference in bikes, as well as the fact that whitscars bikes have better special rules, will still give given them an advantage.

For me, my disappointment (besides the huge shafting codex DA got) comes from the fact that code DA cannot take landspeeder storm scouts. DA ravenwing allies could be cool, but I really dont want to take a unit of marines or scouts on foot, kind of ruins the theme imo. (Also the scouts would be great for getting to objectives which people put on the 2nd floor to annoy bike armies.)

Prescience Libby, a ravenwing command squad, landspeeder storm with scouts and a darkshroud would be my perfect allies for a whitescars list.

As awesome as that sounds, and as much as I would like that, i doubt DA's will get the landspeeder storms or the grav guns. I just dont see them FAQing that into our dex. I have been wrong before, but that would be a pretty huge FAQ addition to a previously released codex. Not sure I have seen that happen to often.

I could see them getting the grav guns, it would just be strange fluffwise if all of the sm chapters didn't get it. Landspeeder storm...... yeah you are probably right here, as much as I would want them. I guess the fluff is that the ravening stole all of the storms along with the scouts' teleport homers.

**SheSpits**

Well i can see WS being better as they are a whole chapter, while RW is a detachment of a chapter. Still i love my RW and doubt i will allie WS in. They have been doing pretty well on there own. Almost every game though has been pretty hard for me though.

**Yellohman**

Working on a Ravenwing allied SM tournament list. Incorporating the Dakka banner and an 8 man squad of SM bikes. Didn't realize they could take grav guns derp. So I'll fit some in there. I like to combine the best of both sides, da banner, rad grenades plasma bikes, and whitescars already having skilled rider pretty much so I don't have to spend 80 pnts on a DS. I'll let you know how it goes.

**Big Blind Bill**

Yellohman wrote:
Working on a Ravenwing allied SM tournament list. Incorporating the Dakka banner and an 8 man squad of SM bikes. Didn't realize they could take grav guns derp. So I'll fit some in there. I like to combine the best of both sides, da banner, rad grenades plasma bikes, and whitescars already having skilled rider pretty much so I don't have to spend 80 pnts on a DS. I'll let you know how it goes.

The problem I see is that the whitescars get no benefit from the dakka banner, so there is no synergy there. Also I dislike how the bikes you get from allies won't be a troop choice, though the grav guns will help lots vs MC's which ravenwing sometimes have problems with. Best of luck.

**jamin484**

Yellohman wrote:
Working on a Ravenwing allied SM tournament list. Incorporating the Dakka banner and an 8 man squad of SM bikes. Didn't realize they could take grav guns derp. So I'll fit some in there. I like to combine the best of both sides, da banner, rad grenades plasma bikes, and whitescars already having skilled rider pretty much so I don't have to spend 80 pnts on a DS. I'll let you know how it goes.

This is what I've come up with along those lines.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Yellohman wrote:
Working on a Ravenwing allied SM tournament list. Incorporating the Dakka banner and an 8 man squad of SM bikes. Didn't realize they could take grav guns derp. So I'll fit some in there. I like to combine the best of both sides, da banner, rad grenades plasma bikes, and whitescars already having skilled rider pretty much so I don't have to spend 80 pnts on a DS. I'll let you know how it goes.

The problem I see is that the whitescars get no benefit from the dakka banner, so there is no synergy there. Also I dislike how the bikes you get from allies won't be a troop choice, though the grav guns will help lots vs MC's which ravenwing sometimes have problems with. Best of luck.

Bikes in the allied detachment are still a troops choice.

**Breng77**

jamin484 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
2 hits is hardly a lot. And what about eldar? They auto kill it turn 1.

They use their shield and then lose the best tank in the game. I love it when people make the mistake of shooting their serpent shield at my crappy wee dark shroud. I would swap a dark shroud for a wave serpent any day. The really silly thing is they've wasted that shot on something that has no offensive output. The shroud is great because people either shoot at it (which is great, as its basically a wasted shot whether you kill it or not) or they don't (which is great because it jumps about helping anyone who is not in combat, which should be almost no one in the enemy shooting phase due to hit and run). In my experience, you only need the cover save for the first turn, after that you can hide in combat.

So if the cover save is so good how is someone killing it a waste. Mis spend 1 of several serpents killing it, then unload the rest against bike units....oh and since I moved I have 4+ cover at worst.... And against serpent spam + wraithknights you are hiding in combat with what exactly? The wraith knight? Cause as the eldar player I'm not to upset by that.

As for it being out of Los how does that work against multiple serpents (or tau smart missiles) while still giving all your bikes a 2+ cover save?

Also I even forgot about the buff commander, no need for tau to marker light you at all.

Sorry the dark shroud was good until tau and eldar came out, not it is a waste of points that could be better spent elsewhere.

**Tiger9gamer**

Nevermind earlier comment

**Kingsley**

labmouse42 wrote:
From an earlier post

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves. Outside of a bolter banner, the damage output for ravenwing drops by either 1/2 or 3/4, depending on double tap range.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

Resiliance Per Point
Ravenwing
Lasguns: 133.33
Bolters : 49.99
Autocannons : 19.98
LasCannons : 9.99

White Scars
Lasguns: 171.42
Bolters : 64.28
Autocannons : 25.71
LasCannons : 17.14

The White Scars are much better on a Resiliance Per Point basis. Getting that extra Jink plus being only 77.7% of the cost really makes them a much better buy when it comes to withstanding enemy fire.

Overall
White scars are better overall. They are overall more effective per-point. They don't have the Achilles heel of the bolter banner getting shot down.
The good news for ravenwing players is that they can repaint their army white.

It's a little disappointing to see these misleading stats posted again without any acknowledgement of the criticisms that came up in the other thread. Cover saves make Grav weapons much less effective, to the point where a grav-gun is often barely better against a Marine than a Standard of Devastation bolter. Further, the Standard of Devastation allows Ravenwing to engage from further out than White Scars can. Lastly, Ravenwing armies have access to several cover save buffs that can largely mitigate the resilience issue.

Overall, I think White Scars bike units are better, but Ravenwing bike armies are better. Most good White Scars armies probably won't be all bikes, while most good Ravenwing armies will be.

**Breng77**

Not at all what I said, what I said is eldar and tau render the dark shroud useless, as such the points would be better spent else where. One of the reasons (along with grav guns, auto passing dangerous terrain, lack of fearless, no need for a special character to make bikes troops....) that I think codex marines make a better bike list (white scars specifically) than dark angels. I'm sad for dark angels as for the second edition in a row the space marine release has rendered their codex largely useless (they are playable, but I feel like most of what the offer codex space marines does better)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kingsley wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
From an earlier post

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves. Outside of a bolter banner, the damage output for ravenwing drops by either 1/2 or 3/4, depending on double tap range.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

Resiliance Per Point
Ravenwing
Lasguns: 133.33
Bolters : 49.99
Autocannons : 19.98
LasCannons : 9.99

White Scars
Lasguns: 171.42
Bolters : 64.28
Autocannons : 25.71
LasCannons : 17.14

The White Scars are much better on a Resiliance Per Point basis. Getting that extra Jink plus being only 77.7% of the cost really makes them a much better buy when it comes to withstanding enemy fire.

Overall
White scars are better overall. They are overall more effective per-point. They don't have the Achilles heel of the bolter banner getting shot down.
The good news for ravenwing players is that they can repaint their army white.

It's a little disappointing to see these misleading stats posted again without any acknowledgement of the criticisms that came up in the other thread. Cover saves make Grav weapons much less effective, to the point where a grav-gun is often barely better against a Marine than a Standard of Devastation bolter. Further, the Standard of Devastation allows Ravenwing to engage from further out than White Scars can. Lastly, Ravenwing armies have access to several cover save buffs that can largely mitigate the resilience issue.

Overall, I think White Scars bike units are better, but Ravenwing bike armies are better. Most good White Scars armies probably won't be all bikes, while most good Ravenwing armies will be.

I disagree here, if you put the devastation banner on a bike, it makes it too easy for most armies to take out.

**Kingsley**

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree here, if you put the devastation banner on a bike, it makes it too easy for most armies to take out.

Pre-FAQ, I agree-- post-FAQ, preserving the banner on a Ravenwing Command Squad is fairly easy given good movement tactics and adequate terrain. In some cases deploying the banner squad in Reserves may be necessary, but even this is far less limiting than many might think.

**Tiger9gamer**

from my experience, yea it is to easy to take even a 5 man command squad out of play. Land raiders help, but they eat so much points and are slow if you want to bring all the weapons you have in effective range.

**Kingsley**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
from my experience, yea it is to easy to take even a 5 man command squad out of play. Land raiders help, but they eat so much points and are slow if you want to bring all the weapons you have in effective range.

A five-man Ravenwing Command Squad with Apothecary (and potentially Sammael) should be quite hard to kill, especially on a table with enough terrain. It is somewhat vulnerable to barrage sniping, but barrage weapons are not very common right now and are far from reliable in any case.

**labmouse42**

Tiger9gamer wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
My stuff is better than your stuff!!! my stuff is better than your stuff!!! Eldar and tau will always win every game ever!

Pretty much what i'm reading here.

I know Breng77. He plays daemons and GK. Hes not trying to say 'my stuff is better'. Hes trying to illustrate the wave serpents and tau blow dark shrouds out of the sky.

What happens when d6+1 STR 7 TL shots are made against an AV 10 platform with 2 hull points. *splat*
That's all there is to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kingsley wrote:
It's a little disappointing to see these misleading stats posted again without any acknowledgement of the criticisms that came up in the other thread. Cover saves make Grav weapons much less effective, to the point where a grav-gun is often barely better against a Marine than a Standard of Devastation bolter. Further, the Standard of Devastation allows Ravenwing to engage from further out than White Scars can. Lastly, Ravenwing armies have access to several cover save buffs that can largely mitigate the resilience issue..

I did address all the criticism about cover saves earlier. Maybe you missed it.

**Tiger9gamer**

labmouse42 wrote:
Tiger9gamer wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
My stuff is better than your stuff!!! my stuff is better than your stuff!!! Eldar and tau will always win every game ever!

Pretty much what i'm reading here.
I know Breng77. He plays daemons and GK. Hes not trying to say 'my stuff is better'. Hes trying to illustrate the wave serpents and tau blow dark shrouds out of the sky.

What happens when d6+1 STR 7 TL shots are made against an AV 10 platform with 2 hull points. *splat*

Yea i know. I should really not post something while having low blood sugar. You get pretty mad at everything X-X

Comment retracted