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Alright folks. With the advent of the new SM book (and the Khan!) I'm interested in seeing which biker list is more viable/competitive.

I've put together a minimum list of each army, but am interested in optimal builds for each.

White Scars:
Khan on Bike, 150
5x Bikes, 105pts
5x Bikes, 105pts
Total 360, 11 models, 13 wounds

Dark Angels:
Sammael, 200pts
3x Bikes, 80pts
3x Bikes, 80pts
Total 360, 7 models, 9 wounds

Sammael is better in CC (with AP2 at I5) as well as shooting (Plascan at BS6). He also has the benefit of an AV14 Speeder, if the fancy takes you. And finally, he's Eternal, while the Khan can be ID by S10. Khan gets D3 HoW, although this isn't a huge deal IMO.

On to special rules....
White Scars pass DP, have +1 Jink, +1S HoW, and H&R.
Khan gives Scout to all the bikes.
Khan might be able to gain D3 VPs, if he manages to kill the enemy Warlord.

DA are Stubborn.
Sammael adds D6" to turbo-boosting.
Sammael gives Scout, H&R, Fearless, and Preferred CSM to his unit.

So it looks like Khan buffs the army as a whole, while Sammael makes one unit super-awesome.

DA has more options for growth, though, IMO. Land Speeder squadrons, Black Knights.
But Scars can have units of 8 bikes, while DA can only go up to 6. Scars have the option for Attack bike squads, which can be very powerful.
And finally, Scars are cheaper, with what looks like more special rules.

All around, for an army of Bikes, I think White Scars are more viable. Ravenwing is meant to play in conjunction with Deathwing, which I think it does quite well. But that makes it dependent, while White Scars are potentially not.

Thoughts?

Simply by virtue of the grav gun makes SM better overall, since you would take plasma for the same thing in DA.

However with those special grenades you can take as DA, it changes.

If you want to own the ground, and don't care about the air, then DA works well.

If you want to have both air and ground covered, SM is the way to go.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Sammael gives Scout, H&R, Fearless, and Preferred CSM to his unit.

He doesn't give them Scout and Hit and Run as all Ravenwing already have those rules.

From an earlier post

Damage Per Point
This is assuming the DA are in range of the bolter banner. This does not include the cost of the bolter banner or Sammael/Azrael in the calculations. This is simply the bikes themselves. Outside of a bolter banner, the damage output for ravenwing drops by either 1/2 or 3/4, depending on double tap range.

Ravenwing
GEQ : 88.33
MEQ : 13.09
TEQ : 6.54

White Scars
GEQ : 54.13
MEQ : 28.49
TEQ : 19.94

The ravenwing are much more deadly to GEQ targets. Simply put, they will shred apart Kroot walls. They will demolish daemon calvary, etc.
Against MEQ and TEQ, the White Scars pull ahead. This is because Grav weapons are so very good against targets like riptides.
Which is better? Well...that depends on your meta. Are you shooting more at Gaunts or Termigons?

Resiliance Per Point
Ravenwing
Lasguns: 133.33
Bolters : 49.99
Autocannons : 19.98
LasCannons : 9.99

White Scars
Lasguns: 171.42
Bolters : 64.28
Autocannons : 25.71
LasCannons : 17.14

The White Scars are much better on a Resiliance Per Point basis. Getting that extra Jink plus being only 77.7% of the cost really makes them a much better buy when it comes to withstanding enemy fire.

Overall
White scars are better overall. They are overall more effective per-point. They don't have the Achilles heel of the bolter banner getting shot down.
The good news for ravenwing players is that they can repaint their army white.

Nah, just call themselves the "Green Scars". Just as I'm gonna run some "Blood Scars".

That's one of the strong points of the marine codex's. You can always run it as a 'counts as' for whatever power armored codex is best at the moment.

Yaay, I just won around 20 bikers for a small price. Looks like I am going to make "Black Scars".
Black is my new favourite colour, so easy to hop to any Chapter you want with that colour.

Martel732 wrote:
Nah, just call themselves the "Green Scars". Just as I'm gonna run some "Blood Scars".

They actually have the Rampagers!
It are red "White Scars".

No. I'm the Blood Scars. Just to make it clear what I'm doing.

Do you play.. Sanguinary Bikes?

Can I run the "Chaos Scars" with my CSM bikers?

Labmouse, thanks for the link! Your website looks like what I've been searching for!

Da best bikes? Us Ork bikers gonna krump da lot of ya! (sumin' da maffs iz rite)

Dakka PP
~Guard: 274
~Marine: 216
~Termie: 296

RPP
~Lasgun: 95.99
~Bolter: 36.73
~SM autocannon: 14.54
~SM lascannon: 14.54

I did the numbers for assault too, but its worse even on the charge and by god does it suck if not charging

Im pretty torn here. I have a decent size DA army, and the White Scars are sounding super snazzy with the grav weapons and command on bikes. I am really digging the TFC and the Hunter as well, things I would have to ally in. My biggest problem with DA's is I pretty much have to ignore flyers. Lets face it, taking a lone quad with an aegis is not an "answer" to fliers, its simply something more than nothing. I am not sure I could easily switch though, as I love my dakka banner and my black knights.

Think I might try and proxy as White Scars and see how it goes for a couple games. The thought of allies keeps running accross my mind, but if you start working out the lists it gets pretty restrictive quick, I just cant squeeze everything in I want.

All I can say is the dakka banner really puts down some hurt when you can get 2-3 full squads of bikes in the bubble, it can really can wipe squads off the board quick. However, a lot of the lists capability reside in that banner. The White Scars can spread the grav weapon love accross all their squads, and can resort to the TL boltguns on the bikes when that option is better.

Rezyn

Rezyn wrote:
All I can say is the dakka banner really puts down some hurt when you can get 2-3 full squads of bikes in the bubble, it can really can wipe squads off the board quick. However, a lot of the lists capability reside in that banner. The White Scars can spread the grav weapon love accross all their squads, and can resort to the TL boltguns on the bikes when that option is better.

Take a look at the math I showed you.

If you thought RW bikes put out a lot of firepower, you won't be dissapointed with the white scars grav-bikes.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Rezyn wrote:
All I can say is the dakka banner really puts down some hurt when you can get 2-3 full squads of bikes in the bubble, it can really can wipe squads off the board quick. However, a lot of the lists capability reside in that banner. The White Scars can spread the grav weapon love accross all their squads, and can resort to the TL boltguns on the bikes when that option is better.

Take a look at the math I showed you.

If you thought RW bikes put out a lot of firepower, you won't be dissapointed with the white scars grav-bikes.

The math is sound, which makes it even harder. However, the math doesnt factor in the -1 toughness from the black knight grenade launcher. Which I know isn't a huge factor to some, but 72 TL bolter shots wounding on 3's or 2's vs regular infantry types is pretty freaking sweet. (Lot of tau and eldar in my area)

However, the grav effectiveness vs the riptide and wraithknight is undeniably awesome.

I like white scars because It doesn't need to rely on a banner held by one marine to work. a marine who can be sniped or just shot to death by everything!

Rezyn wrote:
Im pretty torn here. I have a decent size DA army, and the White Scars are sounding super snazzy with the grav weapons and command on bikes. I am really digging the TFC and the Hunter as well, things I would have to ally in. My biggest problem with DA's is I pretty much have to ignore flyers. Lets face it, taking a lone quad with an aegis is not an "answer" to fliers, its simply something more than nothing. I am not sure I could easily switch though, as I love my dakka banner and my black knights.

Think I might try and proxy as White Scars and see how it goes for a couple games. The thought of allies keeps running accross my mind, but if you start working out the lists it gets pretty restrictive quick, I just cant squeeze everything in I want.

All I can say is the dakka banner really puts down some hurt when you can get 2-3 full squads of bikes in the bubble, it can really can wipe squads off the board quick. However, a lot of the lists capability reside in that banner. The White Scars can spread the grav weapon love accross all their squads, and can resort to the TL boltguns on the bikes when that option is better.

Rezyn

I would just run your DA using the new SM rules. A local guy does that, and runs lists from the DA and SM book, depending on what he wants to field.
It is actually really flexible that way and gives you a ton of options. And makes sense fluff wise. Nobody says DA don't have access to TFC or Hunter tech, and maybe
there is a sub squad of ravenwing that fight more like white scars. Easy to justify.

Just pickup some TFC and Hunters and paint them in DA colors. Or don't paint them and play with them. Whatever you fancy.

Allies, man. Yeah, it's a bit expensive, but you really get a ton of options (even tough the Primary has to be DA).

You guys are missing the elephant in the room here; the real best bikers of 6ED. Swiftclaws....

Seriously though, cost per body is enough here. Ravenwing don't have enough advantages to justify their higher price point. It's a shame how hard the DA codex has been hosed, but that's the game we have.

The math is ignoring the Dark Shroud, skilled rider (Sammy can grant it to a squad) and not factoring in Black Knights either (who have skilled rider). RW can get 2+ cover save, WS cannot. I have a WS army but I am not convinced that I am going to switch to the SM 'dex yet. I am open to be persuaded but I think if you are running a pure bike army RW is better...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been trying to create a list that combines the strengths of both but this mess is the best I've come up with...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551019.page#6030565

WS have army-wide Skilled Rider
How can they get 2+ cover?

Flat out + skilled + jink + dark shroud.

The main benefit of skilled rider is +1 to your jink save. This means that a substantial part of my RW army (2-3 squads) have a better cover save than WS (by having a model within 6" of the shroud.) The shroud can be shot and killed sure, but by that point it has usually done its job.

Army wide scout without having to take the khan is another massive bonus. the khan is ok but I'd rather have Sammy all day every day. I should say at this point that I've recently commissioned a nice Sammy conversion so I am pretty biased

http://deathwatchstudios.com/2013/09/04/warhammer-40k-white-scars-jetbike-complete/

Kangodo wrote:
WS have army-wide Skilled Rider
How can they get 2+ cover?

Yeah I don't see why RW wouldn't get army wide Skilled Rider. It would justify their points cost. But at 6 points less per model with more special rules (that are also given units besides just bikes) and more wargear options, I don't want to play RW anymore. Not to mention WS actually have the ability to deter Helldrakes, or just fliers in general.

jamin484 wrote:
The math is ignoring the Dark Shroud....... RW can get 2+ cover save, WS cannot.

In the BRB there is a section called allies that might interest you

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jamin484 wrote:
The math is ignoring the Dark Shroud....... RW can get 2+ cover save, WS cannot.

In the BRB there is a section called allies that might interest you

Help me make it work then mate!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551019.page#6030565

 Krellnus wrote:
Flat out + skilled + jink + dark shroud.

Ooeh, that is hot. Now I want to ally:
Biked Librarian with Divination.
Unit of scouts
Darkshroud
(That would be around 250 or so)

The Darkshroud itself has Shrouded, so that would make it a 3+ cover when he moves?

jamin484 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jamin484 wrote:
The math is ignoring the Dark Shroud....... RW can get 2+ cover save, WS cannot.

In the BRB there is a section called allies that might interest you

Help me make it work then mate!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551019.page#6030565

I'll be sure to post.

Kangodo wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Flat out + skilled + jink + dark shroud.

Ooeh, that is hot. Now I want to ally:
Biked Librarian with Divination.
Unit of scouts
Darkshroud
(That would be around 250 or so)

The Darkshroud itself has Shrouded, so that would make it a 3+ cover when he moves?

2+ because you always turbo boost the shroud. I can't help taking BK's either... and Sammy because he can give a squad of WS's skilled rider so they get 2+ cover without turbo boosting....

Ooh dear Lord, that would be insane :O