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What I would like to see added to Wolves:
Flier of some sort- probably not a transport, but a gunship of some form. Maybe a design shared with another book, like BA or GK (Wolves captured a few from GK during the dustup after Armageddon 1, and now build them?)

Ground based AA (If not the hunter/Stalker)

Wulfen (Mark of the Wulfen models, and a return of a full unit of Wulfen with a Wolf Priest leading them, like SW Death Company)

Return of the Leman Russ, in normal and Exterminator variants. BS4, no squadron, bumped in price to 160+ to balance with the Predator.

Space Wolf specific Dreadnought kit/options- can make Bjorn from the kit.

Point costs will probably be adjusted, but that's obvious. I don't see them loosing any units, but maybe not gaining much either. The two AA tanks, but no flyers. I'd like to see a runic power that can effect flyers. That would be a rather unique effect.

I can see them getting their own runic powers table with access to 2-3 from the book. I'd also like them to get access to all the various dreads at proper points listed.

My bet is that Blood Claws will get a price reduce while GH stay the same or only get a small adjustment.
Space wolves really suffer from not being able to take cheap troops without fielding canis.

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

At least I see you guys getting access to the Stormraven or Stormtalon, not both since Space Wolves are not fond of flying. Other then that definitely access to the AA tanks.

 gmaleron wrote:
At least I see you guys getting access to the Stormraven or Stormtalon, not both since Space Wolves are not fond of flying. Other then that definitely access to the AA tanks.

I dont want that stinking stormraven. They should at least be able to create something unique for space wolves. Not being lazy and printing the stormraven profile in the new dex but giving them enough antiair capability and such that simply makes up for not having fliers. I'd appreciate that. But you are probably right.

 Mywik wrote:
My bet is that Blood Claws will get a price reduce while GH stay the same or only get a small adjustment.
Space wolves really suffer from not being able to take cheap troops without fielding canis.

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

They are the same cost as a CSM marine with bolter/ccw/pistol and still far better, they need to be pushed back to 16-17 points.

But I know it depends on who writes them, if kelly does them again they'll all be Marines + 20 again.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
My bet is that Blood Claws will get a price reduce while GH stay the same or only get a small adjustment.
Space wolves really suffer from not being able to take cheap troops without fielding canis.

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

They are the same cost as a CSM marine with bolter/ccw/pistol and still far better, they need to be pushed back to 16-17 points.

But I know it depends on who writes them, if kelly does them again they'll all be Marines + 20 again.

You have to see the grand scheme. Space wolves cant take culitsts for cheap scoring so its apples and oranges. I dont have a problem with a price increase on grey hunters if blood claws get cheaper. Im almost 100% certain that even grey hunter will see a decrease although coupled with a nerf maybe. But lets see what they have in store for us. All in all so far troops got cheaper in the new codices.

Dont get me wrong. I dont want GH in their current state for cheaper. I want a cheaper troop choice. If grey hunter stay premium troops and get an increase im fine as long as they do something to make bloodclaws viable and only if its for cheap power armored scoring .

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
what Space Wolves update? isn't it a bit presumptuous to think it's their turn?

I was just wondering what people think it will be like


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A GumyBear wrote:

Fenric wrote:
I think we might be getting the Wulfen back. It's a cool unit that alot of people love. Also we will prob get our own flier sicne we do not have a single one and we can't even use the standard SM ones.

I highly doubt that they will get a flier, at best they will get a giant FMC wolf with angel wings that can assault fliers.

Their current fluff contradicts the use of any fliers (bar thunderhawks) and GW so far has followed this by not giving them any of the current imperium fliers with the DftS update when they easily could have gave them at least one.

Don't get me wrong I'm certain that they will get some sort of reliable AA but it wont be in the form of a flying smart car.

Russ likes the ground where its nice and warm
Anti air is gonna be an obvious addition. I think it'll probably be the best however.
Let space wolves be the army with no fliers if they can be the best anti air

Also (CONTROVERSIAL COMMENT INCOMING)
Could we be seeing the Leman Russ tank make a comeback as a reliable and affordable heavy support choice?

Could we be seeing the Leman Russ tank make a comeback as a reliable and affordable heavy support choice?

Probably about the same as CSM getting the Basilisk again.

But then again they don't actually care for CSM so you might get a chance.

I'm hoping for night vision, now that acute senses have been nerfed.

Thunderwolves need Ld 9 and should probably be cheaper. Also, there's no reason why they shouldn't be fearless. I usually dislike running them because I have to pay the extra 230 points for the Wolf Lord so they have a decent Leadership so they don't backpedal 3D6 when they get shot up.

 Mywik wrote:

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

They can't take grav weapons, but they still get an additional special weapon, Mark of the Wulfen and Wolf Standards, as well as access to 2+ armour sergeants that synergise to a ridiculous level with said standard. Tacticals still aren't great, they've moved from "meh" to "decent", whereas Grey Hunters are still among the best troops in the game.

I can see Wolf Guard no longer being able to join other squads. Maybe instead they'll put in a real Wolf Guard character upgrade just within these squads like they have with (veteran) Sergents in the other books and have Power Armor Wolf Guard and Wolf Guard Terminator units remain as their own Elite choices.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe the grey hunter will be fairly priced. Which means an increase.

Paying for special weapons and changing Wolf Banners would certainly help, even if they don't give them a 1pt cost increase.

Not good enough, imo. They have TRIPLE the effectiveness of tactical marines when they are assaulted. And better weapon selections, because special weapons are better for tac squads than heavy.

Cheaper HQs will be very nice. Master of Runes with Divination will be solid and oft taken, assuming they keep Divination. The downside is we lose access to the codex powers, many of which were great. JotWW was the one that got the most airtime, but Living Lightning was pretty consistently useful, able to chew up light vehicles.

Wolf Lords should come in around 70-75 points, Chaos Lords are a little cheaper than that, but WLs get a 4th attack. A ThunderLord with TH/SS would come in at around 180.

I am wondering what will happen with Sagas. Being able to purchase EW was very nice. I could see some of the Sagas being rolled into relics, but keeping Sagas might be on the table too.

A Shield Eternal clone would be great, but somehow I doubt GW will just copy paste relics. Maybe a Russ Belt Eternal? Runic Armor Eternal? Wolftooth Necklace Eternal? I hope they don't tie it to an AP3 weapon or something dumb like that.

One way or another, I expect the ability to purchase EW will remain in some form. If not, it'd be a stupid step back.

I wonder if Runic Armor will incorporate Adamantium Will and get a 5 point bump. I'd kind of prefer it didn't, and stayed 20 points, but we'll see.

I am excited for Relics in general, provided they are of similar quality to C:SM. I'd honestly be happy with just copy pasting the C:SM relics over, with a few tweaks. You'd probably need to increase the price of the Shield Eternal by 15ish points to compensate for lack of built-in invuln saves, and you'd want to tweak Burning Blade and Teeth of Terra to account for players putting them on Thunderwolves (S8 burning blade attacks would be sweet though).

In terms of units, they need anti-air and a flyer, but aside from that the biggest change I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Frost weapons should become 5 pts cheaper too. +1S is nice, but they got nerfed between 5th and 6th with the AP3 designation. They used to be amazing, but now they're really just troop mowers as opposed to featured weapons for HQs. Teeth of Terra is 10 pts more than a frost blade for +1S more and a bunch of special rules, so I think a 15 point differential isn't breaking much. It would also make Frost Axes more reasonable to take. As they stand, you pay the same cost as a powerfist, striking at the same initiative, and your only bonus is +1A for two weapons, and that's assuming you aren't ceding that +1A for a SS or something.

Also, lower costs for things like jump packs and bikes for wolf guard (costs right now are downright silly).

Also, grav weapons. That or an increase in rending weapons that can be taken across the army. The latter is probably fluffier, but I don't know how GW would feel about adding new ranged rending weapons to the army, which is what are needed to counter Pacific Rim 40k. Adding grav weapons might be the easiest solution.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Not happening. Keep them in cover like you should with any static long range unit.

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Not happening. Keep them in cover like you should with any static long range unit.

Doesn't help much in a shooty meta where an enemy unit can either: A) put a lot of wounds on you to save, B) hit you with lots of low AP weapons that force you onto the lesser cover save which results in unsaved wounds, C) ignore that cover entirely, or D) some combination of those 3.

Long Fangs die like...well, dogs, very quickly to a number of toys new armies have, and as armies get updated it's only going to get worse. They need something to increase their survivability, because cover doesn't cut it anymore.

If Long Fangs stay the way they are, the vastly more cost effective AND survivable choice will be to ally in IF and take a unit of Devastators, or alternatively run SW as allies to have multiple units of Devs (while still being able to take 2 units of Grey Hunters, a TWC unit, etc.).

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Not happening. Keep them in cover like you should with any static long range unit.

Doesn't help much in a shooty meta where an enemy unit can either: A) put a lot of wounds on you to save, B) hit you with lots of low AP weapons that force you onto the lesser cover save which results in unsaved wounds, C) ignore that cover entirely, or D) some combination of those 3.

Long Fangs die like...well, dogs, very quickly to a number of toys new armies have, and as armies get updated it's only going to get worse. They need something to increase their survivability, because cover doesn't cut it anymore.

If Long Fangs stay the way they are, the vastly more cost effective AND survivable choice will be to ally in IF and take a unit of Devastators, or alternatively run SW as allies to have multiple units of Devs (while still being able to take 2 units of Grey Hunters, a TWC unit, etc.).

EVERYTHING dies in Warhammer. Doesn't make Long Fangs special. And if your gripe with Long Fangs is survivability, how the hell are Devastators more survivable?

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Not happening. Keep them in cover like you should with any static long range unit.

Doesn't help much in a shooty meta where an enemy unit can either: A) put a lot of wounds on you to save, B) hit you with lots of low AP weapons that force you onto the lesser cover save which results in unsaved wounds, C) ignore that cover entirely, or D) some combination of those 3.

Long Fangs die like...well, dogs, very quickly to a number of toys new armies have, and as armies get updated it's only going to get worse. They need something to increase their survivability, because cover doesn't cut it anymore.

If Long Fangs stay the way they are, the vastly more cost effective AND survivable choice will be to ally in IF and take a unit of Devastators, or alternatively run SW as allies to have multiple units of Devs (while still being able to take 2 units of Grey Hunters, a TWC unit, etc.).

EVERYTHING dies in Warhammer. Doesn't make Long Fangs special. And if your gripe with Long Fangs is survivability, how the hell are Devastators more survivable?

Devs can take extra bodies for ablative wounds

And why would I pay points for models that are going to do nothing?

 Wilytank wrote:
And why would I pay points for models that are going to do nothing?

They do do something, they absorb wounds allowing you to continue firing your weapons later in the game.

Consider a Devastator squad of 10 men. They are indeed more expensive than 6 long fangs but I have 6 ablative wounds, compared to 1.

If my opponent shoots two models off the line a turn, by the end of turn 3, my long fangs are dead. Meanwhile my devastators still have all their heavy weapons because everyone else took the hits for them.

And I can combat squad Devastators, giving myself between 1 and 4 ablative wounds, depending on how many heavy weapons I put per 5 man squad.

DogofWar1 wrote:
If my opponent shoots two models off the line a turn, by the end of turn 3, my long fangs are dead. Meanwhile my devastators still have all their heavy weapons because everyone else took the hits for them.

Assuming you're doing nothing to kill whatever is a threat to your squad? If I wanted to help my Long Fang Squad to survive I'd actually take models that actually do something. The thing I have in mind: Drop Podding in some Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, or Dreadnoughts to waste whatever is the biggest threat is. Then just proceed from that point.

If you're afraid of some Riptide ruining your Long Fangs day, extra wounds is not going to save them. The best defense is a good offense.

 A GumyBear wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
I'd like to see is ablative wounds for Long Fangs. I know it's not fluffy, but in an age of lots of AP2 and AP3 weapons, they need something that allows them to take models off that aren't carrying heavy weapons. Maybe allow wolves to be purchased and added to the unit, or maybe allow for purchasing blood claws (it could be explained as punishment for insubordination, that they have to sit on the back lines with the old fogies and not get to be directly involved in combat).

Not happening. Keep them in cover like you should with any static long range unit.

Doesn't help much in a shooty meta where an enemy unit can either: A) put a lot of wounds on you to save, B) hit you with lots of low AP weapons that force you onto the lesser cover save which results in unsaved wounds, C) ignore that cover entirely, or D) some combination of those 3.

Long Fangs die like...well, dogs, very quickly to a number of toys new armies have, and as armies get updated it's only going to get worse. They need something to increase their survivability, because cover doesn't cut it anymore.

If Long Fangs stay the way they are, the vastly more cost effective AND survivable choice will be to ally in IF and take a unit of Devastators, or alternatively run SW as allies to have multiple units of Devs (while still being able to take 2 units of Grey Hunters, a TWC unit, etc.).

EVERYTHING dies in Warhammer. Doesn't make Long Fangs special. And if your gripe with Long Fangs is survivability, how the hell are Devastators more survivable?

Devs can take extra bodies for ablative wounds

Long Fangs can take a Terminator Sergeant to tank AP3 shots.

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
If my opponent shoots two models off the line a turn, by the end of turn 3, my long fangs are dead. Meanwhile my devastators still have all their heavy weapons because everyone else took the hits for them.

Assuming you're doing nothing to kill whatever is a threat to your squad? If I wanted to help my Long Fang Squad to survive I'd actually take models that actually do something. The thing I have in mind: Drop Podding in some Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, or Dreadnoughts to waste whatever is the biggest threat is. Then just proceed from that point.

If you're afraid of some Riptide ruining your Long Fangs day, extra wounds is not going to save them. The best defense is a good offense.

And if they in turn deep strike behind you? Or just have enough things on the board that they can't all be dealt with by the things in pods? Redundancy is very important in armies, so it's quite possible that while you might be able to kill, say, a unit of lootas with your podded guys, there could be another whole unit, or, if you fire on both units, you probably don't kill enough of either to keep them from doing some serious damage. Or maybe they took 3 units. Mixed with ork boyz in trukks in their deployment zone, drop podding might not be a sound concept at all, since you'd probably just get charged after picking a few lootas off.

The Thunderwolf Lord attached to a unit of Fenrisian Wolves has the same concept, use ablative wounds to keep them alive long enough to get their job done (in this case, get the TWL into CC).

I suppose it comes down to a difference in concept, but I've had units where 5 or 6 models blown off the table by shooting on turn 1 or 2, and when playing with IF Devs I find it very helpful to have those extra wounds, as it usually gives me an extra turn of shooting with those Devs. The cost difference is about 60 points, but those points buy me enough time to pump out enough fire to make back those points and more. Sometimes you just need one more round of shooting to finish off that Land Raider/MC/whatever.

DogofWar1 wrote:

Also, grav weapons.

I wouldn't see Wolves getting any of the new Codex Marine toys. Those ar ethere to make "Plain" Marines more interesting. Wolves have all their Wolfy stuff to make them interesting.

No Stalkers, Hunters, Centurions or Grav Weapons I reckon. However, looking at Dark Angels, extra elite-of-the-elite units and their own flier of some sort isn't out of bounds I'd say.

A giant Wolf Monstrous creature. Joking, im not really hoping for that.

 conker249 wrote:
A giant Wolf Monstrous creature. Joking, im not really hoping for that.

Bran Redmaw?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

They can't take grav weapons, but they still get an additional special weapon, Mark of the Wulfen and Wolf Standards, as well as access to 2+ armour sergeants that synergise to a ridiculous level with said standard. Tacticals still aren't great, they've moved from "meh" to "decent", whereas Grey Hunters are still among the best troops in the game.

The upgrades you are talking about push a grey hunter squad to more than 200 points a pop (motw, wb, wolfguard) they are still powered armored marines that get murdered by ap3 and better and cover ignoring abilities (both of which is quite present in 6th). All upgrades you mentioned are in the "close combat" quarter. As i said in my post these added cc benefits arent that great nowadays. I was never arguing that tacticals are the same as grey hunters - i said that most what makes them better than tacticals is cc orientated. I didnt see a motw or similar make it into close combat for a while with "precise shots" and all kinds of shenanigans.
So nowadays you go for a full kitted greyhunter squad you dont get much of a benefit out of the added rings and bells in my personal experience (which is of course anecdotal in its nature). My take is not taking full kitted gh squads anymore and go for "10 guys with 2 special weapons" instead to have more points for stuff that actually matters and i had better results that way.
Thats why i (personally) hope for a price decrease on blood claws to make cheap power armored scoring bodies. They can do whatever they want with GH if they fix bloodclaws.
You are right about the "2+ armor" seargents but with the attached seargent a 10 man gh squad with 2 PGs, motw and a banner clocks in at 223pts. Yes they're more durable than a marine squad but they are a lot more expensive too in an edition where cheap scoring rules out everything else.

 Mywik wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

A lot of things that looked undercosted in the past are now overcosted if you compare them to other armies. I really dont see a grey hunter price increase ... the opposite. Grey hunters were better than tacticals ... nowadays thats not really true anymore. Their increased cc capabilities arent worth that much anymore and they cant take gravs (now).

They can't take grav weapons, but they still get an additional special weapon, Mark of the Wulfen and Wolf Standards, as well as access to 2+ armour sergeants that synergise to a ridiculous level with said standard. Tacticals still aren't great, they've moved from "meh" to "decent", whereas Grey Hunters are still among the best troops in the game.

The upgrades you are talking about push a grey hunter squad to more than 200 points a pop (motw, wb, wolfguard) they are still powered armored marines that get murdered by ap3 and better and cover ignoring abilities (both of which is quite present in 6th).

Guess what else is? Tac Squads. You pay 1 more point for BP/CCW, get stellar Chapter Tactics (even if Acute Senses is a bit "eh?" these days) and the option to take a slew of upgrades that play to the strengths of Tactical Marine equivalents (medium- to short-range shooting). You lose the option of having a Heavy Weapon, a clunkier Sergeant system and the option to Combat Squad. You're 10 points more expensive base but much better anyway. Grey Hunters, for what they currently get, aren't overcosted unless Tactical Marines are too.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
If my opponent shoots two models off the line a turn, by the end of turn 3, my long fangs are dead. Meanwhile my devastators still have all their heavy weapons because everyone else took the hits for them.

Assuming you're doing nothing to kill whatever is a threat to your squad? If I wanted to help my Long Fang Squad to survive I'd actually take models that actually do something. The thing I have in mind: Drop Podding in some Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, or Dreadnoughts to waste whatever is the biggest threat is. Then just proceed from that point.

If you're afraid of some Riptide ruining your Long Fangs day, extra wounds is not going to save them. The best defense is a good offense.

And if they in turn deep strike behind you? Or just have enough things on the board that they can't all be dealt with by the things in pods? Redundancy is very important in armies, so it's quite possible that while you might be able to kill, say, a unit of lootas with your podded guys, there could be another whole unit, or, if you fire on both units, you probably don't kill enough of either to keep them from doing some serious damage. Or maybe they took 3 units. Mixed with ork boyz in trukks in their deployment zone, drop podding might not be a sound concept at all, since you'd probably just get charged after picking a few lootas off.

I play Orks; moreover, I play Speed Kult Orks. 12 boyz in a trukk is not a threat to a Grey Hunter squad. Trukks have crappy armor anyway so Long Fangs can take care of them while the Lootas get killed.