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Iron Father Mac wrote:
I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned Ironclads for dropping on the enemy. twin heavy flamers av13 and iwnd.

I second that notion. At 1500 or less I would be dropping a pair of these if possible. Instead of using the dreads as a gun line I would use something like Dakka predators behind the aegis for long range. You could also use whirlwinds to help thin out troops and use the dakka preds and dreads to pop the vehicles etc. (that's a cool name for your army btw, Preds and Dreads) Then drop in 2 ironclads on the opponent's face. The AV13 makes their survivability go up and unless they get 1 shotted IWND will keep them up for the charge the next turn. Plus those flamers will help.

You could then make the troops section be either MSU tacticals with razorback who can gunline and rush simultaneously, kept safe by the ironclads distracting or tying everyone up, or drop pod them in after the dreadnoughts to claim the objectives that the ironclads have removed the enemy from.

Might be too expensive points wise but it sounds cool.

- VardenV2

Assault Cannon & Missile Launcher would be a pretty good candidate for Twin Linking via Prescience.

As others have said, DA Librarians would be a good include. Actually, look into the rules for the Darkshroud. It's be pretty nasty to have one of those flying around buffing all of your units' coversaves.



This way, you could have a base of fire from Lascannon / ML dreads gaining 3+ cover behind an ADL from the Darkshroud, and the Librarian walking up granting your AC/ML, Ironclads, etc. a 4+ Invuln with the PFG and selectively buffing them with Prescience.


Alternatively, you could throw that Librarian in a DA Tactical Squad, and throw them in a Drop Pod. 2 Ironclads coming in, with backup from the PFG granting them an invuln, should make them somewhat more robust.

At this point I feel I should mention something:

The whole reason for this army was so that I could find a use for the 5 dreadnoughts I find myself in possession of. The reason I didn't go immediately to tanks is because other than my Land Raiders, I don't own any tanks.

My vehicle inventory is as follows:

1 Thunderfire Cannon (I know...not a vehicle.)
2 Land Raiders
1 Land Speeder
6 Drop Pods
5 Dreadnoughts

Anything else means another purchase, and I'm trying to keep my purchases as low as possible.

Ok so this thread is relevant to my interests as i have been heavily pondering a chaos/orks walker heavy mech list the past couple days. I haven't tested it yet as i don't have the models but 'ive done a bit of brainstorming and math.

So an ADL and a mess of dreads with IWND sounds really effin durable to me so personally I would try to work that angle. You could try massing them with TLlas/HBor ML, sit the MoTF on the quad gun wayyyy back.Then maybe spam out some scouts in LSS equipped with anti infantry weapons/CCW to outflank and cleanup? This actually sounds like a fairly solid idea to me since the LSS can come in from reserves and immidiately throw down a bunch of blind templates,potentially stalling for repair time on your battered dreads. The problem here is that i cant see it working at 1k-1200. If you made it an 1850-2k you could easily fit 6 dreads and 6 troops the ADL and maybe even a second MOTF and some techmarines! Sounds legitt to me.

The similar idea i had was to take 2 LR and a battlewagon to hide them behind. Use the AV14 to march straight at em and hit em with meltas and assault. Kinda like the ork kanwall back in 5th. Could also throw ML/PC on em and then you have fair anti tank and 2 small blast per walker.

At any rate if you try it out let me know how it goes. I am very interested in some playtest results befor i go and waste a buncha money.

 Jimsolo wrote:
At this point I feel I should mention something:

The whole reason for this army was so that I could find a use for the 5 dreadnoughts I find myself in possession of. The reason I didn't go immediately to tanks is because other than my Land Raiders, I don't own any tanks.

My vehicle inventory is as follows:

1 Thunderfire Cannon (I know...not a vehicle.)
2 Land Raiders
1 Land Speeder
6 Drop Pods
5 Dreadnoughts

Anything else means another purchase, and I'm trying to keep my purchases as low as possible.

Go to Home Depot, buy yourself some complicated looking machine part, and kitbash yourself an Iron Hands Darkshroud out of that Speeder you've got. Problem solved!

I believe this list will be much more effective with a Skyshield Landing Pad instead of an Aegis Defense Line. With an Invulnerable save for your Dreadnoughts that can't be removed, IWND will come into its own. Cover, on the other hand, is relatively easy to ignore in this edition.

 Kingsley wrote:
I believe this list will be much more effective with a Skyshield Landing Pad instead of an Aegis Defense Line. With an Invulnerable save for your Dreadnoughts that can't be removed, IWND will come into its own. Cover, on the other hand, is relatively easy to ignore in this edition.

Very interesting notion, Kingsley.

*Strokes beard*

Is the Skyshield (when furled) short enough that a Dreadnought can fire over/through it?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I believe this list will be much more effective with a Skyshield Landing Pad instead of an Aegis Defense Line. With an Invulnerable save for your Dreadnoughts that can't be removed, IWND will come into its own. Cover, on the other hand, is relatively easy to ignore in this edition.

Very interesting notion, Kingsley.

*Strokes beard*

Is the Skyshield (when furled) short enough that a Dreadnought can fire over/through it?

Easily, it's about the same height as a space marine.

How pure do you want to keep your gunline? You have the drop pods, but once you start useing those in any real amount, you enter the realm of Hybrid lists, or pure drop.

Dreads can take weapons for any role, so as long as you mix it up, you should be set. You just need to cover all the bases of things to kill

If you aren't dropping them, the MM is not the best choice. You could use your speeder for fast-melta delivery if you don't want to pod. Melta is my preferred method of dealing with AV14, but massed LCs could work.

If you are going to advance troop up the table, walking an assault cannon dread up with them can help. A hurricane bolter ironclad could also work here.

I like a TLLC/ML for long range fire support.

To get the most out of the venerable upgrade, I think you want one of the non-TL'd guns, and the potential for CC. That says to me assault cannon or multimelta, and keep the fist. Drop or advance aggressively.

Your mandatory picks (MotF, TFC, ADL, 4-5 dreads) look like they are going to set you back around 1,000 points. To that, you still need troops. You could just cheap out with scouts, but I think you still need some massed bolter fire. The dreads put out some quality firepower, but not a lot of quantity. While nice, I'm not sure you want the TFC to be a single point of failure vs. horde lists. At lower points, I'd go with a sniper squad and a full tac. Larger points add another tac. If you want to gable on the late turn objective grab, scouts outflanking in a LSS might be fun.

Well, since you shut down most valuable discussion about the Dreadnought aspect before it even started, I'm just going to speak broadly about this idea.

It won't work well.



An IG gunline would make this sort of list blush. Even if you were to make an SM gunline, it would be far more sensible to use Tri-Las Predators, Thunderfires, Devastators, etc, but unfortunately all of them take up the HS slots quick. Then Razorback squads in the troops section, and since we're not being practical or logical anyway, what the hell, take Sternguard with dual heavies.

I think a skyshield would definately be a better option than an aegis, even if you do lose the icarus or quad gun. the 4++ would certainly add to the surviveability tremendously.

The problem i think you will face is that Dreadnaughts are generally points inefficient. there are many much better choices in the book, but thats off topic, obviously.
I would certainly take at least 1 rifleman, simply because they would be the best option (outside an aegis or stalker) for AA with a dread centric army. also, because you are relying on IWND and tech marines, some servitor squads with HB will add to your anti horde capability. your dreads might not be that vulnerable to assault from hordes, but with so many points invested in them you may have them bogged down.
I can also see how some MC's might spoil your day, a smash attack will tear a dreadnaught to pieces, and in a multi MC army, i don't see how you would have the firepower saturation to deal with them if you relied on dreads alone t do the business. a CM with the eternal shield and TH could act as a decent interceptor for your dreads and tie up any MC's you fight (and have a credible chance of killing them) you would also be able to buy a tech marines and servitor without taking up slots.

As to your troops, cover negating shenanigans notwithstanding, scouts with camo cloaks could generally be counted on to have a 2+ cover save with the bonus' your tech marines provide, and i would certainly consider having 1 unit of scouts per tech marine to gain the most benefit. and for each tech marine (or MOTF) you have, you can get 2 HB servitors, that could be a lot of HB's even if they are only BS3. but with the general points inefficiency of dreads, and the number of slots already taken up in elites and HS, i think it would be the best option for anti horde at range. Ironclads with hurricane bolters will likely tear up hordes at close range, and the added bonus of AV13 will make them immune to krak grenades (and thus most CC units) but they will still go down hard to MC's and melta

So I just want to toss out a couple thoughts more for feedback than to help (I'm really not all that great with tactics, but hey, may as well join discussions and find out why I'm mistaken.)

I've been thinking of trying out a Dreadnought-heavy Iron Hands list myself, but not a gunline. 5 or 6 dreadnoughts in pods, and then a bunch of scouts in LSS's. The scouts should help me out with thinning out hordes, which is probably going to be rough with just dreads. I'm not sure that a single TFC is enough to really fix that, and flamers are only going to be of moderate use against orks simply because by the time you can use them you'll get charged the next turn.

I'd try and get some landspeeder storms into the mix.
Now that they are dedicated transports, they don't waste a fast attack slot. It also gives you the ability to really jump out with your scoring troops late in the game.

I'm also trying to wrap my head around an Iron Hands list; of course, mine will be the Iron Finger, to pay homage to the lack of support they got in this codex. Seriously, 6 Ultramarine special guys, and you couldn't throw Iron Hands even one? Hell, even units of servators as troops for iron hands would have been something.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'd try and get some landspeeder storms into the mix.
Now that they are dedicated transports, they don't waste a fast attack slot. It also gives you the ability to really jump out with your scoring troops late in the game.

I'm also trying to wrap my head around an Iron Hands list; of course, mine will be the Iron Finger, to pay homage to the lack of support they got in this codex. Seriously, 6 Ultramarine special guys, and you couldn't throw Iron Hands even one? Hell, even units of servators as troops for iron hands would have been something.

-Matt

Honestly, I was surprised they even got special rules. Baby steps, and all that.

So, I'm thinking lascannons and missile launchers for the anti-tank dreads. For the anti-personnel one(s) I was thinking heavy bolter and...what? Missile launcher or autocannon?

With Iron Hands, I think Venerable is a good option for your dreads. You have a good shot of negating any direct kills from penetrating hits, and IWND can gain them back. Also remember that IH get a +1 to their Blessing rolls, so running a few Masters of the Forge and Techmarines paired with the Venerables is a good option.

If you run 4 Venerable Dreads with 2 MotF, 2 Techmarines, and a Skysheild, your negating half the hits on you a turn and have a 66% chance of regaining at least one hull point per Dread. Only issue is you sacrificed numbers for survivability, but I thinks it's some pretty good survivability.

Ran this list today. Only lost one dread (to melta bombs in a combat I foolishly initiated). Lost the game, but I'm convinced the list is sound.

As predicted, volume of fire output is indeed an issue. Honestly, my list was poorly built (my opponent wanted a 2k pt game, so I filled it in with some crap that didn't blend well with what I already had). However, the game was still a close won (I believe I lost by 2 points) and it was a real test of the Achilles' Heel of the list. (Horde Guard.)

Nonetheless, I'm convinced the idea is viable. I did well enough that I feel confident moving forward in building the army.

Can you share the list with us? I'm curious as to what dread loadouts you took. I've been following this thread as I will be running IH with two ven rifleman and two dropped ironclads.

Cheers

You need an ork ally with a Big Mek that has a full squad (3) of kanz, a deff dread, and a boyz mob to go score something.

Jamo wrote:
Can you share the list with us? I'm curious as to what dread loadouts you took. I've been following this thread as I will be running IH with two ven rifleman and two dropped ironclads.

Cheers

Little embarrassed to show the list, but here it is.

Iron Fists:
Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer
Techmarine
Servitors (3 Servo-arm, 2 Heavy Bolter)
Chaplain (Terminator armor)

Tactical Squad (10 men, 1 flamer)
Scouts (9 Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher)

4 Ven Dreads (3 with Lascannon/Autocannon, 1 with Heavy Bolter/Autocannon)

Land Raider Redeemer (extra armor)

Devastators (5 man squad, 4 plasma cannons)

Allied Tau detachment:
Commander (with the upgrades that give his squad Denies Cover and re-rolls to his)

Firewarriors (6)

Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line


I ran the tac squad in the Raider with the chappie. The Tau commander joined the devs. The allied Tau, while a great shtick (4 re-rollable plasma cannon shots that deny cover are AMAZING), sucked up too many points, and the dreads are already taking up a lot of weight in the list as it is. That companied with the fact that my enemy was massed IG just meant that I didn't have enough shots to bring people down. If I'd spent those points maybe on two additional tactical squads, things might have gone a little differently.

Cheers Jimsolo

Yeah its a pity the lrc isn't a dt otherwise you could have dropped the tau and squeezed in a couple of tfcs.

How did you find target selection with the dreads? The rifleman is the only one where both arms are the same guns, so I'm finding it difficult to choose on alternate loadouts. Having two different guns can become a hinderance on choosing what's best to shoot at. What's your thoughts Jim?

Jamo wrote:
Cheers Jimsolo

Yeah its a pity the lrc isn't a dt otherwise you could have dropped the tau and squeezed in a couple of tfcs.

How did you find target selection with the dreads? The rifleman is the only one where both arms are the same guns, so I'm finding it difficult to choose on alternate loadouts. Having two different guns can become a hinderance on choosing what's best to shoot at. What's your thoughts Jim?

Unfortunately, I don't actually own any TFCs right now, so squeezing them in isn't really an issue. XD The Lascannon/autocannon dreads were primarily intended as anti-vehicle or anti-elite units, and the heavybolter/autocannon dread was intended as anti-infantry. While the anti-tank dreads had an acceptable output, the anti-infantry one really didn't, so I'm thinking about tinkering with his loadout.

Got a 1000 point game in today. Mixed results.

My army:


His army:


Game went really well initially. No night fighting. First turn started off with me killing two of the lascannons with a frag missile, immobilizing one of his dreadnoughts, and sending one of his dev squads running. (Although not off the board. ) For the first two turns, the plan for this army went pretty much exactly as it was supposed to. None of the dreads took any damage, at least none that they couldn't immediately regenerate or have healed. Third turn, the dice turned against me. He got two lucky missile shots off, both of which penned, both of which got past the cover save, and one of which exploded the dread. (I forgot to have him re-roll the explode result.) The exploded dread earned him first blood, and we eventually called the game. Had it gone to conclusion, I would have lost no matter how we did things. I took a lucky plasma hit that killed the Master of the Forge (I forgot to pass the wound off to a servitor) and even if I killed Sicarius, I was too far away to grab the Relic.

I made several key mistakes in this game, but I'm starting to get my tactics together for this army. I think if I take scouts in the future, I may hold them in Reserve and have them Outflank, in order to keep them from getting killed off the table. I also think some Dark Angels would be a welcome addition, especially (really, and only) if they bring a Darkshroud. Scouts in Land Speeder Storms might be a good idea too. I gotta remember that my dreads can start the game out of range of fire and then march up, which I could have done this game but failed to do.

In any event, that's how this is progressing so far. I'm pretty satisfied that the idea is a usable one, but there's a lot of learning to do. I'm also thinking about dropping the autocannons in favor of missile launchers on the off-hand.

Think I'm going to bring the list up to the 1500 point range by bringing in an allied detachment of Dark Angels. Probably a libby, command squad with the Banner of Devastation, and a tac squad or two. Think that might make a difference in my fire output?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Think I'm going to bring the list up to the 1500 point range by bringing in an allied detachment of Dark Angels. Probably a libby, command squad with the Banner of Devastation, and a tac squad or two. Think that might make a difference in my fire output?

The banner of devastation will only effect the Dark Angels models sadly. Other chapters don't understand what the banner does I guess haha.
I really wish DA got Ironclads (no idea why they don't when otehr SMs have them) as then you could use them + dev banner to great effect. that said, 20 marines with bolters (probably a heavy weapon or two as well) and a command squad with combi-weapons on your back line + dev banner is an immense force multiplier and will really discourage people from trying to get linebreaker etc as they are going to get shot to pieces by bolters alone. I see a difficulty in advancing up further though. Just some thoughts.

- VardenV2

Are AV11/10 and 2HP vehicles worth it with Iron Hands? Just curious if anyone's had experience.

Razerous wrote:
Are AV11/10 and 2HP vehicles worth it with Iron Hands? Just curious if anyone's had experience.

The two games I've played with them, they've been extremely survivable. Between the MotF and their own IWND, plus the cover save, it's pretty hard to kill them.