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The Commissariat like the rest of the Imperial war machine is a product of the Horus Heresy, a war that was marked from start to finish by treachery and betrayal. The Commissariat was implemented to combat the very real recurring problem of defection rather than mere desertion. By the time that threat had diminished the institution had become an established part of the natural order.

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Commisars wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for cowardly, undisciplined Guardsmen. So who's more to blame?

To be fair, most real world soldiers would be wetting their pants in a large scale 40k battle against most of the usual enemies.

Hell even the minor xenos like the Slaugth, Hrud, and Rak'Gol are plenty terrifying.

Yea, many Imperial Guard are actually the elite of their PDF and trained and prepared as well as can be expected for a modern military. The fact that they need commissars because the crap they're up against is just THAT friggin' scary and horrendous adds to the grimdark of the setting. Well, for those who like their grimdark to be serious. One of the great things about Warhammer 40k is that it can be used either satirically ("lol! Commissars shoot their own troops! Grimdark!") or seriously ("There is a serious justified reason why Commissars have to go that far, and that and the fact that such a reason exists just makes things even MORE grimdark.")

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I know that in the IG life is *very* cheap. And that morale maintenance/discipline is vital. But shooting your own men? Really?!?

With the exception of Gaunt, the Commissars are feared. They're likely to break morale if I'm honest. And as much as guardsmen are well-trained heroes (or butt-wiping gaks depending on what you read) I don't think watching their comrades being killed BY THEIR OWN SIDE will help their heads much, never mind make them shoot better.

Then again, this is the IoM. Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

In WW1 many soldiers on the frontline would become shell shocked, and they along with the cowards among their ranks would oft try to desert the army.
The only solution that worked was to kill whoever ran away.

The reason this worked was because the soldiers knew that if they run they *will* die, if they stay they'll only *probably* die.

WW1 + WW2 + Medieval Era + Magic + Sci-Fi = WH40k

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Commisars wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for cowardly, undisciplined Guardsmen. So who's more to blame?

The people who drafted the Guardsmen and forced them to die fighting for a dead tyrant.

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Commisars wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for cowardly, undisciplined Guardsmen. So who's more to blame?

To be fair, most real world soldiers would be wetting their pants in a large scale 40k battle against most of the usual enemies.

Hell even the minor xenos like the Slaugth, Hrud, and Rak'Gol are plenty terrifying.

They'd just give up and walk away if they saw SM or Daemons or 'Nids coming toward them.

It's pretty logical. You'll have to fight to have a chance at surviving, or be shot in the back and killed while trying to run away. I'd choose figting over that to.

I'd love to be a Commissar it seems like a great gig. Then again so is being a last-minute hero-- I mean SPEHSS MEHREEN

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its only recent history where you don't get shot for deserting..

This almost made me laugh. Only yesterday I was told that if I deserted during a time of war I would be punished by death...deserters are still punishable by death in wartime, though when we aren't at war, death isn't how you'd get punished

This is America we're always at war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I see a lot more non-Americans than Americans on this forum and I think that's better for everybody.

 13whited wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its only recent history where you don't get shot for deserting..

This almost made me laugh. Only yesterday I was told that if I deserted during a time of war I would be punished by death...deserters are still punishable by death in wartime, though when we aren't at war, death isn't how you'd get punished

Maybe technically they could shoot you. But I would think that is very unlikely(admittedly not a whole lot)

Of course desertion isn't as big a concern with a volunteer army.

They might have told you that, and it's certainly an option under the UCMJ (unless you're an officer, in which case capital punishment is largely off the table excepting in a rare few cases). Truth is, the US military does not spend a lot of time or effort pursuing deserters.

Jefffar wrote:

It could be worse. In WWII the Soviets had entire battalions of troops whose job it was to sit behind their own lines and shoot anyone who retreated. If you want A great example scene of such, watch Enemy at the Gate.

Greatly exaggerated by Nazi and Cold War propaganda. Zagradotryads were MP on steroids (our army had no MP) , in reality they apprehended deserters and stragglers while providing some degree of protection against german infiltrators (and nazi had no problem with dressing up their specops units - sometimes entire companies). And they mostly were formed from proven _army_ troops, who definitly knew better than simply shoot on sight.

PS "Enemy at the gate" is p.o.s. full of such cold-war cliches - "one who pays is one who decides which music plays" and it's people with no interest in that truth who payed.

Commissars are meant to lead by heroic example and generally you read about them leading from the front, getting stuck in with the grunts they're meant to inspire. The Political Officers of the Soviet army are poor examples, but they do embody the more brutal members of the Commissariat in 40k.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Commissars specifically were Communist party officers positions within the military. They were officers tasked with the ideological health of the troops, and demanded total obedience. Cowardly acts were considered treason.


You could draw a parallel between Commissars and the German SS. Both were indoctrinated members of the party. The germans simply had a separate branch for them while the Russians used them as a special type of officer.

Commisaire is french word. As for voiskovoy komissar - unlike politruk/pompolit their main task was control over loyalty of commanders of their units. AFAIR during American Revolution similar rank existed in Colonial Army, while idea was invented in Renaissance era in Italy to control mercenaries.

As for commisars and SS...plain wrong. You can compare SS units to NKVD troops - both were created for securing rear/captured areas, both were receiving good human resources, both were used on battlefield when things went south and fought with distinction.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Commissars are meant to lead by heroic example and generally you read about them leading from the front, getting stuck in with the grunts they're meant to inspire. The Political Officers of the Soviet army are poor examples, but they do embody the more brutal members of the Commissariat in 40k.

What do you call a Commissar in front of his men running towards the enemy?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 13whited wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its only recent history where you don't get shot for deserting..

This almost made me laugh. Only yesterday I was told that if I deserted during a time of war I would be punished by death...deserters are still punishable by death in wartime, though when we aren't at war, death isn't how you'd get punished

Of course desertion isn't as big a concern with a volunteer army.

You don't seem to understand, if I were to desert during wartime, I would be put to death.
Death
Dead
No more

I don't think that the united states military views desertion as a small matter

This is straight from the US UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice)

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.


Parts (a) and (b) explain what is considered to be desertion and are not applicable to the discussion at hand.

To go further with that...

... if you desert, time of war or not, from a military post CONUS, the DOD is not going to spend a lot of time trying to track you down. If you are OCONUS... well, you're fethed. You're not even in America, probably don't speak the local language, probably don't look like a native, and have no passport or other means of travel, and have no way to get home.

All they really do is flag your SSN with the fact that you're a deserter. Good luck trying to find a job that pays more than minimum wage, under the table.

Now, if you happen to get arrested for something, then they'll send someone over to pick you up and take you to Leavenworth... but that's about all the effort they're going to expend on dealing with a deserter. The US military simply doesn't have the time or the will to waste many resources on tracking down someone who is, in all likelihood, a terrible soldier anyway.

The commissariat is about far more than summery execution, that is the last option.

First is off-duty comeradery(sp), next is exemplary courage, Then comes battlefield oratory.

A Commissar is a great leader of men, and while there is the very real threat of death from those who break, it is the example and faith that encourages(both original and current definitions) the men under a commissar's command.

This is found in both the fluff and in game(Stubborn+ High Ld+ Summary execution rule in-game)

 Psienesis wrote:
To go further with that...

... if you desert, time of war or not, from a military post CONUS, the DOD is not going to spend a lot of time trying to track you down. If you are OCONUS... well, you're fethed. You're not even in America, probably don't speak the local language, probably don't look like a native, and have no passport or other means of travel, and have no way to get home.

All they really do is flag your SSN with the fact that you're a deserter. Good luck trying to find a job that pays more than minimum wage, under the table.

Now, if you happen to get arrested for something, then they'll send someone over to pick you up and take you to Leavenworth... but that's about all the effort they're going to expend on dealing with a deserter. The US military simply doesn't have the time or the will to waste many resources on tracking down someone who is, in all likelihood, a terrible soldier anyway.

To further supplement this it should be noted that people being killed for desertion is extremely rare:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/awoldesertion.htm
http://www.russellfrostlaw.com/private-eddie-slovik-the-last-american-soldier-executed-for-desertion/

Considering the enemies the Imperial Guard face, I think having dedicated morale officers is an excellent idea.