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I know that in the IG life is *very* cheap. And that morale maintenance/discipline is vital. But shooting your own men? Really?!?

With the exception of Gaunt, the Commissars are feared. They're likely to break morale if I'm honest. And as much as guardsmen are well-trained heroes (or butt-wiping gaks depending on what you read) I don't think watching their comrades being killed BY THEIR OWN SIDE will help their heads much, never mind make them shoot better.

Then again, this is the IoM. Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

The Russians.

You have to remember the threat of the bullet to the head is what gets 90% of the job done. The other 10% is reminding them the threat is real.

Look at it this way: You have normal men fighting horrors of the galaxy, who's wills are likely to fear them. For the cheap price of one guy with some brass balls, you can keep those guns pointed at the enemy, rather than running home to mommy.

Commissars work not just because they go "Run and I'll shoot you", but because there's the threat of the Emperor abandoning them, and denied entry to the IOM's effective equivalent of heaven. You run, no after lifer for you.

Do the guardsmen know if this is true or not? Feth no! and that's why it works. Commissar probably knows best, and it's better to be metaphorically safe than sorry - even if that does mean a pulse round to the gut.


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 xole wrote:
The Russians.

And this.

Agreed. It worked for the Soviets, it works for the IoM

"If something scary is in the front of the men, put something even scarier behind them"

It was this way all history until like the 1940s maybe. And even then deserters were dealt with harshly.

Let's re-roll this Leadership test *BLAM* okay guys let's do this! Next one to question authority ends up like misc. OP #1.
-Everybody in the Commisariat

How about you ask the Emperor directly? Blam!

Because which is worse:100% chance of bolter round to the face or 99% chance of being killed by a green monster?

As pointed out, there is historical precedent. Indeed, one of the reasons officers were traditionally equipped with pistols while the enlisted ranks were not is so that officers had a quick and easy way to enforce discipline on them at all times.

It could be worse. In WWII the Soviets had entire battalions of troops whose job it was to sit behind their own lines and shoot anyone who retreated. If you want A great example scene of such, watch Enemy at the Gate.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I know that in the IG life is *very* cheap. And that morale maintenance/discipline is vital. But shooting your own men? Really?!?

With the exception of Gaunt, the Commissars are feared. They're likely to break morale if I'm honest. And as much as guardsmen are well-trained heroes (or butt-wiping gaks depending on what you read) I don't think watching their comrades being killed BY THEIR OWN SIDE will help their heads much, never mind make them shoot better.

Then again, this is the IoM. Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

Gaunt isa somewhat bad example since his regiment is one of the more reasonable ones. Imperial regiments as a whole reflect the extreme diversity of the Imperium. Some are little more than drugged up underhive scum who know nothing but violence and murder. Others, perhaps comming from a shrineworld, might be utterly zealous and unwilling to even tolerate anything that does not fit within their narrow worldview. Other planets tithe savage bronze age barbarians which make Conan look like the epitome of civilisation. There are of course also pretty normal soldiers, little different from modern day military in mindset and training yet all of them have to be prepared to face the very worst that the 40k galaxy has to offer. It is a commissar's task to make sure that they can not only face such challenges but that they have the discipline to do this side by side with people from completely different cultures and planets, all of it in the middle of sanity destroying horror.
To achieve that the common imperial soldier needs a strong, guiding hand. Both for moral and to ensure that those too weak to do their duty are weeded out before the rot has a chance to spread.
Being reasonable and "a father to his men" might work with some regiments. Others require brute and merciless force. At the end of the day a commissar has to be tougher than the soldiers in his regiment and, if all else fails, more feared than whatever his men/women are currently facing.

Commisars are a great idea. Just not necessarily a nice idea... also my understanding was that officers of all countries were issued pistols rather than rifles until relatively recently because they were supposed to be doing leadery things rather than being directly responsible for shooting people.

The reason you have a pistol is so you don't have to carry your rifle to the chow hall.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
The reason you have a pistol is so you don't have to carry your rifle to the chow hall.

Haha, so true.

It's also an easy way to identify and mock pogs. That or an M-16 or an M-4 with no optics.

They are also there to be on watch for heresy, and alien/demonic possession and the such.

Due to their training, they are suppose to see threats others cannot with the eyes of a imperial zealot. Since they are assigned rather than from the IG planet, they are not tainted by any planetary/racial/whatever was happening with the guard before they were founded.

Kinda hard to see the enemy, when the enemy is your brother, or friend, or great war hero. The commissar only sees the faithful, and weak.

 xole wrote:
The Russians.

Soviets.

There's a difference.

The Soviets. Life is cheap and the population is enormous. "Quantity has a quality all its own." -Stalin

Well, there is this reason.

Historically, military's nearly always punished cowardice extremely severely. Although they didn't always have a specialized officer position tasked with the job.

Its only recent history where you don't get shot for deserting.

Commissars specifically were Communist party officers positions within the military. They were officers tasked with the ideological health of the troops, and demanded total obedience. Cowardly acts were considered treason.


You could draw a parallel between Commissars and the German SS. Both were indoctrinated members of the party. The germans simply had a separate branch for them while the Russians used them as a special type of officer.

Also keep in mind most soldiers will continue fighting even when they would run so as to support the guy next to them. If they see the guy next to them run away they are also likely to run. This becomes a chain effect. This is why this on field "discipline" has worked for so long and so well. It is unnecessary in modern skirmish style warfare as the battle fronts are relatively limited and supplemented by mobility or stealth. The fights also tend to be shorter in duration with more time to "get into the right mind" between.

Or less time for the stress of combat to build up.

Not as much shell shock happening.

in WW1, even if you were never in the lethal blast radius of an artillery strike the constant pounding of them nearby could cause damage over time.

Also keep in mind the IG dex actually only represents a small fraction of the IG forces out there. Check out some of the FW army lists and you will see Elysians and Death Korps of Krieg don't really need commissars for morale purposes or to keep them in the fight. They are there for other reasons.

It probably started as an almost rational thought (hey, soldiers are deserting when we order to die fighting ten thousand year old daemonically enhanced super soldiers) but by the time it had gone through the Imperium's great bureaucracy it was flying rodent gak crazy.

It fits with the setting. The horrors of the galaxy surrounding the IoM are many. But the brutal regime that is the IoM is almost as terrifying a foe to its own troops and people.

Mitranekh the Omniscient you need to report to your local political officer, for mental re-education to the Gulag!
The commisars are there to root out the traitors to the cause!
Some people need a small nudge (a bolter round) to get in the right direction.

For the Emperor!

Commisars aren't just tasked with shooting deserters. They have other ways of doing their job of keeping up morale and discipline, too, whether it's earning the respect of the troops in the fields of battle or providing troops with information (propaganda) that gives them clarity of purpose.

It's just that in the field of heated battle, you don't really have time for any of those things if a soldier breaks and runs. If you don't shoot him, other soldiers might follow his example. In the real world where your foe might be rational and accept things like surrender, etc, this method of enforcing discipline could be seen as a bit extreme. In a galaxy where your foe will show no mercy and kill you and your soldiers and every woman and child and innocent civilian of that hive city you're defending if you lose the battle, shooting a soldier that's running away is an easy moral decision to make.

Besides, who else would wear the dashing hat and gloves?

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I know that in the IG life is *very* cheap. And that morale maintenance/discipline is vital. But shooting your own men? Really?!?

With the exception of Gaunt, the Commissars are feared. They're likely to break morale if I'm honest. And as much as guardsmen are well-trained heroes (or butt-wiping gaks depending on what you read) I don't think watching their comrades being killed BY THEIR OWN SIDE will help their heads much, never mind make them shoot better.

Then again, this is the IoM. Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

If they're going to run, make sure they run towards the enemy.

Commisars wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for cowardly, undisciplined Guardsmen. So who's more to blame?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Commisars wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for cowardly, undisciplined Guardsmen. So who's more to blame?

To be fair, most real world soldiers would be wetting their pants in a large scale 40k battle against most of the usual enemies.

Hell even the minor xenos like the Slaugth, Hrud, and Rak'Gol are plenty terrifying.