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Tomb King you are the man through and through. I am sad to know you had an unenjoyable game... It happens. I think turn 3 was crucial for you - a lot of really good things happened for you and we reap what we sow.

In regards to going first versus second I disagree that going second is automatically the best. Some armies need to cast psychic powers and move for jink saves. If you're playing a predominantly Necron army with a good number of Night Scythes then sure going second is most often the best. I play mostly meleecentric armies and going first has won me some games simply by denying the opponent a turn of shooting and moving my army closer (including flat outs). The flat out for transports such as the rhino are a huge change introduced in this edition.

anonymou5 wrote:
Guy sounds like a serious D-Bag, and I'm glad you beat him, but I think he's right about the cover form the crashed lander. PG 105, "Wreckage/Rubble" grant a 4+.

Yep, that piece can easily be called a 4+ and should have been clarified pregame. I wouldn't go so far as to call his opponent a D-Bag, we are only getting one side of the story.

Otherwise, congrats on a strong showing so far.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

To sum up, here is my own view. Necrons can definitely compete with Tau and Eldar. As a matter of fact, I believe that the 3 share the crown as the best armies currently.

But here is something new. Pure necrons is actually the most powerful. You add allies to them and you actually start to dilute the army strength. That is my honest opinion. You may not think your Necron/CSM build can survive the new Tau/Eldar, but try playing a pure wraithwing tesla-cron build like mine or Tim Gorham's and you will see differently.

I may sound cocky, but IMO there is NO army that my necrons can't beat. (NOTE - do not confuse that to mean that pure necrons is invincible....they can be beat. However, they also have an equal chance to beat any other army other there.)

Necron builds like your wraithwing work on a very interesting dynamic. The individual components are about as point-efficient as they get. The Annihilation Barge is disgustingly underpriced, the Night-Scythe Warrior combo gives you unmatched ability in objective missions and wraiths provide fantastic board control and an extremely versatile CC base.

When well-played the constantly rotating core of the list pins the enemy army in place while the NS troops win the game. The synergy it possesses does not lie in the power of certain units to buff others. Rather, the roles of the units in the army complement each other very well. Such an army can be nearly unbeatable if played correctly.

However, I am fervently against calling it the strongest army out there. As good as A-Barges and Wraiths are, they are not what make the necron army great. No, it is the completely broken Night-Scythe 'Invasion Beams' rule. The ability to win via objectives while the rest of the army acts as a disruption force is the backbone of competitive strategy.

Your convenient 'Positional Dominance' term sums it up pretty well. However, strongly played Taudar can mimic this effect (albeit slightly worse) jetbikes with far more efficient support. I personally am a huge fan of the Seer Council. A budget council with fortune can be an ever-present thorn in the opponent's side. Beyond that, the ripstar can be incredible for midfield control. The number of synergistic units Taudar can form is incredible. The inter-unit buffing cannot be replicated by necrons.

Necrons are strong. At the pinnacle of their strengths, however, I am of the opinion that they are inferior to Taudar.

I'd like to apologize for the slight off-topic tidbit in advance.


Great insight into the armies, Immotekh. Whether Tau or Eldar or Necrons are better is a matter of opinion and can be debated to the end of time. But you are spot-on with the strengths of each army.

Competitive Tau and Eldar relies more on force-multipliers and army synergy. Necrons rely on army synergy and ridiculously efficient and durable units. Each has its unique strength which makes it so good. Of the 3, Tau arguably relies the most on force-multipliers. Removing/ignoring cover, twin-linked or improved shooting, supporting fire, ethereals doing out goodies like it's Christmas every day....that is the strength of the Tau. Eldar could rely on force mulitpliers, especially if they ally in Tau, but the most efficient Eldar build - Mechdar - doesn't rely so much on force multipliers as it does the speed of its army, its superior firepower, the resiliency of its very efficient transports and the synergy of its units working together. Necrons have excellent army chemistry/synergy, ultra durable units that are also anti-meta units (don't care about AP 1/2 guns, heldrakes and a lot of things that other armies usually are vulnerable to) and a lot of speed. As a matter of fact, the true strength of necrons is that they are the Masters of the Movement Phase. More than anything else, they will beat you with their Movement and have the resiliency to survive all but the most extreme shooty/assault-based armies. No other army out there can compare to a wraithwing necron build in terms of efficiency of unit.

A footnote here is that of all the army builds, probably the seer council is the most "broken". The mechanic of a re-rollable 2+ unit which can get to anywhere on the board is just an anomaly of the game and it is compounded by the fact that they can get out of any combat that they want to. The 2nd closest unit - the daemon screamerstar - is generally not as reliable as the seer council and if they are not careful, can be tarpitted by enemy units. Now when I say "broken", that does not necessarily mean that they are the best army currently (though they can come close if supported by the right supporting units). They do have weaknesses that can be exploited and as with any deathstar unit, you can beat them by killing off the supporting units. However, if a general really knows how to run the seer council, they are one of the toughest armies currently to play against.

anonymou5 wrote:Guy sounds like a serious D-Bag, and I'm glad you beat him, but I think he's right about the cover form the crashed lander. PG 105, "Wreckage/Rubble" grant a 4+.

Pg 105 Wreckage/Rubble read it all the way through. You have to be in the area and obscured by it to get that save. As for the pieces it was the top left two pieces. He is showing progress for a while he was a renown WAAC player locally but throughout this event he showed a lot of promise redeeming that reputation. Beyond my game he handled himself very well. Hopefully he continues down on this new found path. I'de like to say we are still friends but I dunno. Some people are just fierce competitors and it gets expressed differently.

jy2 wrote:That's why I always make it a point to go over with my opponents before the game all the terrain and how to play them...to avoid situations like this.

But a win is still a win, no matter how big or how small. Necrons are just sick in the Relic. That move that you did (and what I do also) should be out-right banned. LOL!!!

One unit of hounds charges in and finishes off the night scythe the other pulls back towards the center of the board some.

I'm assuming you mean annihilation barge, right?

Yea that was a typo meant annihilation barge. It is a sick move and should be banned. That or start making 3d objectives. That would stop it as well.

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

To sum up, here is my own view. Necrons can definitely compete with Tau and Eldar. As a matter of fact, I believe that the 3 share the crown as the best armies currently.

But here is something new. Pure necrons is actually the most powerful. You add allies to them and you actually start to dilute the army strength. That is my honest opinion. You may not think your Necron/CSM build can survive the new Tau/Eldar, but try playing a pure wraithwing tesla-cron build like mine or Tim Gorham's and you will see differently.

I may sound cocky, but IMO there is NO army that my necrons can't beat. (NOTE - do not confuse that to mean that pure necrons is invincible....they can be beat. However, they also have an equal chance to beat any other army other there.)

Necron builds like your wraithwing work on a very interesting dynamic. The individual components are about as point-efficient as they get. The Annihilation Barge is disgustingly underpriced, the Night-Scythe Warrior combo gives you unmatched ability in objective missions and wraiths provide fantastic board control and an extremely versatile CC base.

When well-played the constantly rotating core of the list pins the enemy army in place while the NS troops win the game. The synergy it possesses does not lie in the power of certain units to buff others. Rather, the roles of the units in the army complement each other very well. Such an army can be nearly unbeatable if played correctly.

However, I am fervently against calling it the strongest army out there. As good as A-Barges and Wraiths are, they are not what make the necron army great. No, it is the completely broken Night-Scythe 'Invasion Beams' rule. The ability to win via objectives while the rest of the army acts as a disruption force is the backbone of competitive strategy.

Your convenient 'Positional Dominance' term sums it up pretty well. However, strongly played Taudar can mimic this effect (albeit slightly worse) jetbikes with far more efficient support. I personally am a huge fan of the Seer Council. A budget council with fortune can be an ever-present thorn in the opponent's side. Beyond that, the ripstar can be incredible for midfield control. The number of synergistic units Taudar can form is incredible. The inter-unit buffing cannot be replicated by necrons.

Necrons are strong. At the pinnacle of their strengths, however, I am of the opinion that they are inferior to Taudar.

Pure necrons should not take another event where tau and/or eldar are out in full force. Mark my words. They are competitive but they a good general with Tau, Eldar, or a mix of the two. If my Eldau face off against pure necrons I am licking my chops as that game will most likely end in a wipe. Especially wraith heavy necrons.

 Tomb King wrote:
Pure necrons should not take another event where tau and/or eldar are out in full force. Mark my words. They are competitive but they a good general with Tau, Eldar, or a mix of the two. If my Eldau face off against pure necrons I am licking my chops as that game will most likely end in a wipe. Especially wraith heavy necrons.

Hmmmm....sounds like, one of these days, we may have to get another long-distance game on.

Dozer Blades wrote:Tomb King you are the man through and through. I am sad to know you had an unenjoyable game... It happens. I think turn 3 was crucial for you - a lot of really good things happened for you and we reap what we sow.

In regards to going first versus second I disagree that going second is automatically the best. Some armies need to cast psychic powers and move for jink saves. If you're playing a predominantly Necron army with a good number of Night Scythes then sure going second is most often the best. I play mostly meleecentric armies and going first has won me some games simply by denying the opponent a turn of shooting and moving my army closer (including flat outs). The flat out for transports such as the rhino are a huge change introduced in this edition.

Nearly everygame that I went second in this edition I have won. Especially in tournament play. Its just more beneficial especially when they call last 15 minutes. If you went first and you start your turn and then mid-way through they call last turn. You are already done moving while your opponent still has an entire turn to grab the objectives or contest them. The advantage in 6th edition of going second is ridiculous. Ide go as far as to say the player going 2nd in this edition has a 70% to 30% chance of winning on a level playing field with evenly matched opponents. In 5th edition you wanted to go first as kill points came up a lot and you could still hold objectives within vehicles. Not to mention in 5th units were not as fast. I feel like in 6th edition units are able to move further and further in any given turn. Hell a riptide can move up to 36" in one turn when nova charging, up to 30" if in a unit with shadowsun without nova charging. Eldar bikes can move 12", Turbo 36", and assault move up to 12". Its getting out of hand. Don't even bring on the silliness of an hq that can run 48". LMFAO

Zagman wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
Guy sounds like a serious D-Bag, and I'm glad you beat him, but I think he's right about the cover form the crashed lander. PG 105, "Wreckage/Rubble" grant a 4+.

Yep, that piece can easily be called a 4+ and should have been clarified pregame. I wouldn't go so far as to call his opponent a D-Bag, we are only getting one side of the story.

Otherwise, congrats on a strong showing so far.

Thanks, and your fine. He was kind of being that way for the game but overall he is a good guy. I dont think it helps that I kind of have his number. He hasnt beaten me in all the games we have faced off since the 2nd to last ardboyz + 1 week. So essentially 2 years straight of me taking every contest or forcing a draw on one occasion.

Nearly every game you went second...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nearly every game you went second...

Was the same at Nova. It is just the mechanics of a turn based game.

Yeah sure you must be right. What do I know?

Yea going second with NS units in 6th is slowed. I think multi tiered objectives like the BAO helps, but still doesn't solve it fully. I mean landing a flier base on the relic until last turn should be banned ha ha. Oh well, I don't blame you for doing it, I would too.

I also agree with you on your points about 6th and overall unit speeds. I seriously have no idea why they keep making units faster and faster. When the eldar came out it became an outright joke though. Between spiders, jetbikes and that wing gear I just have to laugh at the situation. I thought it reached a cap with demons but boy I was wrong. Apparently GW remedies accidental fires by through more fuel on the floor ha ha.

A good opponent should be able to block off real estates. Yes it's obvious why TB advocates going first but obviously he doesn't understand that it does not work like that for every army. Banning units you don't like is not a valid solution.

Alright gentleman. I have come to an issue. I have lost the list from the 5th round of the massacre and between Nova open and invite and the massacre I cant recall what he had. I know it was a horde daemon list with a blood thirster but for the life of me I cant recall the game.

Either way the 4th round opponent was like the finals because after round 4 I was the only remaining undefeated.

I can give a brief summary of the mission and results for round 5 but I dont have the list or recall enough of the game to post a full report of it.

None of these are really what I'd consider a full report but that said they are very interesting and fun to read.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
None of these are really what I'd consider a full report but that said they are very interesting and fun to read.

I was originally going to just do a brief summary but habit took me into a full report format. I personally have 3 classifications.

Summary: A paragraph or so detailing the match.
Full Report: Turn by Turn account of what happened.
Complete Report: Detailed Turn by Turn account with pictures.

The third option is obviously my intent for most of my matches but sometimes it is hard to pull off. Especially in a competitive environment. It takes time and thought beyond what is currently happening in front of you. That is why in some of the real close games I lose a picture or two in the turns as I have to focus 100% on the game to make sure I can pull it out. This last round will be a very rough summary unless I can find his list. Will have it up tomorrow with or without the list.

I understand. Like I said your reports are great whether full bore or in summary. : )

Well I managed to get in touch with my opponent and here was his list.

ROUND 5:

Opponent: Ian
Army: Daemons

HQ:
Bloodthirster 2x Greater Gifts, 1 Lesser Gift
Herald of Nurgle Psyker 2, Great Gift, Lesser Gift, Greater Locus
Herald of Tzeentch Psyker 3, Exhalted Locus
Herald of Tzeentch Psyker 3, Exhalted Locus

Troops:
20 Plaguebearers Plague Banner, Champion
20 Pink Horrors Blasted Standard, Iridescent Horror
12 Pink Horrors Iridescent Horror
10 Plaguebearers
10 Bloodletters

Soul Grinder Khorne, Phlegm
Soul Grinder Tzeentch, Phlegm

Aegis with Quadgun

Deployment: Vanguard Strike
Mission:
Big Guns Never Tire
The Relic
Get to the Choppa (Get scoring units within 12" of the boards center line)

Pregame Analysis:

Thoughts and/or predictions?

Deployment: He deploys his entire army with the majority of his troops behind the aegis. Both Soul Grinders are on the right flank with his thirster. The Plagues are in an area terrain in the back of his deployment zone and the horrors take the left flank. I deploy all 3 barges, prince, and wraiths spread out but centrally located.

Turn 1:

Turn 2:

Turn 3:

Turn 4:
Turn 5:

Post Game Results and Analysis:



Tournament Report and Analysis to come later...

An interesting list that your final opponent is bringing. He must be good to make it to the finals with that list. It is an interesting list to say the least...but still, no Grimoire?

It is definitely a beatable list. He's got nothing to take on your flyers and necrons are just shenanigans in the Relic missions. So I'll just take the time right now to congratulate you on winning the whole thing.

Lol!

They ruled for the tournament that if units were scoring for one mission they were scoring for all missions.

Wait, what?

So all Heavy, Fast and Troops were scoring?

 pretre wrote:

They ruled for the tournament that if units were scoring for one mission they were scoring for all missions.

Wait, what?

So all Heavy, Fast and Troops were scoring?

If it was scoring for big guns never tire or scouring then it was also scoring for relic etc... in those particular missions.

 Tomb King wrote:

 pretre wrote:

They ruled for the tournament that if units were scoring for one mission they were scoring for all missions.

Wait, what?

So all Heavy, Fast and Troops were scoring?

If it was scoring for big guns never tire or scouring then it was also scoring for relic etc... in those particular missions.

Oh phew. That makes a lot more sense. I thought you meant if it was for one round of the tournament, it was for the all rounds. That sounded crazy.

 pretre wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 pretre wrote:

They ruled for the tournament that if units were scoring for one mission they were scoring for all missions.

Wait, what?

So all Heavy, Fast and Troops were scoring?

If it was scoring for big guns never tire or scouring then it was also scoring for relic etc... in those particular missions.

Oh phew. That makes a lot more sense. I thought you meant if it was for one round of the tournament, it was for the all rounds. That sounded crazy.

lol yea I suppose it could be read that way. There are 3 missions per round though. Round 5 up!

. The warp storm goes off and he rolls an 11. His tzeentch herald dies to the fickle gods of chaos.

How? you say he is experinced but sounds like he wasnt.


That was from the daemon game page 1, your last game is also wrong

The prince is in a prime position to crush him early but he rolls and 11 on the warp storm table and turns him into a herald


You might want to read the 11 on the warpstorm table buddy, coming from a daemon player I will freely admit that is a OP result but your opponents played it wrong.

MarkyMark wrote:
. The warp storm goes off and he rolls an 11. His tzeentch herald dies to the fickle gods of chaos.

How? you say he is experinced but sounds like he wasnt.


That was from the daemon game page 1, your last game is also wrong

The prince is in a prime position to crush him early but he rolls and 11 on the warp storm table and turns him into a herald

You might want to read the 11 on the warpstorm table buddy, coming from a daemon player I will freely admit that is a OP result but your opponents played it wrong.

That was a silly typo by me. I had the 11 happen twice on me. I only failed it once. He rolled a 3 to kill his herald once. Oh crap you are right. The daemon special rule saves the prince. That is good to know. Cant believe I let that slip. Either way I am glad it didnt affect the outcome of the match. Thanks for the heads up.

Yep I did notice it would not affect the outcome which is good,last thing you want is to relise a rule had been misplayed and cost you the game!. Thanks for the write up bud and well done so far!

Tournament Review and Results:

Results:

Review:


Army Assessment:

A lot of tournaments I have been to rule that objectives are impassable terrain and that not even fliers can land on them to prevent people from blocking the objective from their opponents. It definitely can change things for necrons or people running riptides or wraithknights. I do think it helps balance things and prevents that "tactic."

Overall nice win and congrats on the prizes!

SCP Yeeman wrote:
A lot of tournaments I have been to rule that objectives are impassable terrain and that not even fliers can land on them to prevent people from blocking the objective from their opponents. It definitely can change things for necrons or people running riptides or wraithknights. I do think it helps balance things and prevents that "tactic."

Overall nice win and congrats on the prizes!

Interesting. I have never seen that house rule before. I have seen 3D objectives but never an impassible terrain objective. It would definitely affect night scythe's or any flying transport for that matter.

I have seen that house rule in play. While it has the best of intention I think it can create more problems than it solves.