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Vanquisher misses half the time, if your opponent has a 5up or 4up save then your looking at 4 turns of shooting at the enemy before you take one out. That is unless you slap some multi meltas on at which point you might as well just go with demolisher since you are close up anyway.

JohnnyCage wrote:
Apparently Peregrine has a wonderful meta with no necrons (you know, the metallic guys who use tesla destructiors almost exclusively out of all the guns available to them) in it at all. Good for him then.

That's because Necrons don't have anything better to spam, and can take a lot more STR 7 than a LR Exterminator.

wtnind wrote:
Vanquisher misses half the time, if your opponent has a 5up or 4up save then your looking at 4 turns of shooting at the enemy before you take one out. That is unless you slap some multi meltas on at which point you might as well just go with demolisher since you are close up anyway.

My math might be wrong, working off my cell phone here but...

Vanquisher:
50% hit * 58.33% chance to get at least a 7 (for a pen) = 29.165%

Demolisher:
78% chance hit (get below an 8) * 33% chance to pen = 25.974%

So what you're really trading for is the comfort of the long range vanquisher cannon vs. The versatility of a close up ordinance blast. The reason I'm hesitant about the short range blast is that even a footslogging unit can move faster than the tank on Amy turn due to running, closing in 7 to 12" a turn vs your backing up 6.

I've never found range to be a problem with the demolisher, as most of the stuff you want to kill urgently, is gunning it towards your lines anyway. Besides, it is far more versatile, the str10 ap2 pie plate can make a real mess of anything it shoots at (minus the screamerstar), and is a bargain points wise, compared to the tricked out vanquisher.

 tybg wrote:
I don't see how you can talk tactics and not "have faith in mathhammer". You really think some idealized situations that will rarely work in your favor is more reliable than hard numbers and statistical averages? Yes an Exterminator could utterly wreck a Vendetta with one round of shooting by rolling three pens. But you're dangerously optimistic if you take those scenarios and base all of your tactics around it. If you want to actually use good strategy you need to heavily consider mathhammer and look at what's best for the job you want.

For example, an Exterminator is getting an average of 1.22 hits against a Vendetta with .2 penetrating and .2 glancing hits. That is not a good AA unit by any stretch of the word

Let me clarify, I do take into account statistical averages when it comes to rolling dice, however in my experience my dice seem to either roll above or below average and I dont depend entirely on it. In the end it is a dice game and crazy things have and will continue to happen when you roll, I just am sure to always keep that in mind. And in regards to your "idealized" situations me taking on a Vendetta or Valkyrie with an Exterminator is not ideal, nor should the Exterminator be your first AA choice. All I stated was that if you had to it can be an effective AA unit against many of the aircraft, primarily against the lighter armored ones such as the Eldar, Ork, Tau, Dark Eldar, ect.

eclipseoto wrote:
I'm still by confused by so many people saying demolishers and medusas are the best Russ/artillery. Both of them suffer from the same problem, they have to be comparatively close to fire! Yes having the ap is nice, but against teq/mcs you have the executioner, and for vehicles you have the vanquisher. 14 front armor is nice until the tank is charged since it has has to be so close, then they have some tastey 11 to sink their teeth into. 24" just seems too close for comfort.

Maybe for certain IG lists the range may be a factor but when you look at it in context with a Mech IG list it is not as bad as you think. Being a Mechanized list you have alot of mobility and in alot of cases you will be advancing towards your opponent. These bad boys provide alot of close range firepower and often will dictate the pace of battle as many opponents will try to avoid them as much as possible.

eclipseoto wrote:

My math might be wrong, working off my cell phone here but...

Vanquisher:
50% hit * 58.33% chance to get at least a 7 (for a pen) = 29.165%

Demolisher:
78% chance hit (get below an 8) * 33% chance to pen = 25.974%

So what you're really trading for is the comfort of the long range vanquisher cannon vs. The versatility of a close up ordinance blast. The reason I'm hesitant about the short range blast is that even a footslogging unit can move faster than the tank on Amy turn due to running, closing in 7 to 12" a turn vs your backing up 6.

First of all you are talking about hitting AV 14 (the best of all targets for your vanquisher), second of all the Demolisher rolls 2 dice and picks the highest (since it is ordnance) meaning it's chance to pen is more like 56% AND it hits side armour (since it's a blast).

But this discussion is an asside anyway since the main advantage of the demolisher is that you can flatten a squads of guys (MEQ / TEQ / anything). The Demolisher always has a good target. The Vanquisher is pretty useless against the majority of targets. Add into the fact that Str10 lets you instant kill a lot of the time it is a way more versatile.

Mech Guard are still a fun and effective Army to play in my opinion and mine have yet to disappoint me. Currently with my small amount of Steel Legion (still debating on what paint scheme to go with these guys), I have been running mine with:

* Command Squad w/Master of Ordnance, 2x Melta in a Chimera w/Multi-Laser, hvy. bolter

*Lord Commissar

*Marbo

*3x Vet Squads w/3x plasma, Demolitions in Chimeras w/Multi-Laser, hvy. bolter

1x Infantry Platoon (1x Platoon Command Squad w/ 2x Squads of Infantry w/lasguns)

*2x teams of 3x Missile Launchers

*Aegis Defense Line w/Autocannon Emplacements

*Pask in a Leman Russ Punisher w/hull mounted and hvy. bolter side-sponors

*2x Hellhounds

*Vendetta Gunship

Not a lot at the moment but its a solid start to my list. Plus in my opinion, Meltguns are great on Veteran Squads but there job is to be focused on taking out Infantry and other troops, while the rest of my forces take on any heavy vehicles (hence the Heavy Weapon teams and Vendetta) as very few people at my store running anything heavily mechanized. However, the Punisher is a great choice for a Mechanized list for all of the firepower it puts out, and I honestly don't see why people would not want to run the Hellhound in this edition, never understood that. And I know that having an Aegis defense line and heavy weapon teams ins't exactly being a pure Mech list, but it is all I have at the moment and they have been surprisingly effective, as it not only gives ,me a unit to guard and objective, but gives me that much needed long-range anti-tank I am missing, and the Lord Commissar firing the Quad-gun is also nice w/his BS4. Plan to replace with a squadron of 2x Scout Sentinels w/Autocannons and Hunter Killer Missile in the near future.

Besides that, I also like to add Space Marines as allies, and currently I have been running:

*Khan

*(6x to 8x) Bikes w/2x Gravguns, Sgt. w/Combi-Grav, Lightning Claw

*Stormtalon w/Twin-Linked Lascannon or a Squadron of 3x Typhoon Landspeeders

Fairly cheap and effective, keeps pace with the Chimera Squads easily and also adds some much needed CC to the Army. These guys have wiped out Mobs of 20x+ Orcs easily due to them being T5, and getting S5 Impact hits thanks to the White Scar Chapter tactics. And depending on the points and opponent, I am personally preferring the Landspeeder Squadron over the Stormtalon as it is a good fire-base for a lot of firepower, and plus the Stormtalon sadly has been lacking a bit the past few games.

wtnind wrote:

First of all you are talking about hitting AV 14 (the best of all targets for your vanquisher), second of all the Demolisher rolls 2 dice and picks the highest (since it is ordnance) meaning it's chance to pen is more like 56% AND it hits side armour (since it's a blast).

The demolisher cannon rolls against the armour it is facing. The side-armour rule is part of the barrage special rule, not the blast special rule.

 Talore wrote:
The demolisher cannon rolls against the armour it is facing. The side-armour rule is part of the barrage special rule, not the blast special rule.

So it does, I thought that was for all Blasts not just Barrage but it appears that is yet another one of those Barrage only beneficial effects.

Right, and I have no doubt that it is more versatile, I've just seen more than one Russ get killed in close combat because they strayed too far forward.

I mean I'm certain that some variants do preform better under some circumstances I have always found the Vanquisher performs better - at least for me overall - I may have absolutely amazing rolling but I only miss occasionally with my Vanquishers ( granted I roll very well most of the time ) And my main concern is with the Demolisher - if you have 1 shot that flubs your more then likely gonna be hit by a Melta of some flavor or assaulted -- where as with a Vanquisher you are going to have several opportunitys - ( don't hit my math I'm not thinking to much on it ) the Vanquisher has a 50% chance to hit and (if my Maths somewhat right ) an 88.75% chance to penetrate armor 13 ( Most common overall ) and 77.33% for AV14 due majorly to two D6 pen ( they are added together combine with S8) - ill admit I was never good At math to begin with and I'm tired now so it may as well be way off - I personally think that a Vanquisher will have several more opportunitys to confirm a kill even with its paltry 50-50 hit chance with staying out of threat ranges of most other problems - granted I give points to the Demolisher on cost effectiveness as its rather pricy to up gun the Vanquisher - 210 ( plasma sponsons +las cannon ) give me a fairly decent gunboat

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
the Vanquisher has a 50% chance to hit and (if my Maths somewhat right ) an 88.75% chance to penetrate armor 13 ( Most common overall ) and 77.33% for AV14 due majorly to two D6 pen ( they are added together combine with S8) - ill admit I was never good At math to begin with and I'm tired now so it may as well be way off

Your math is way off. You have a 72.2% chance to penetrate AV 13 (once you hit), and 58.33 against AV 14. And cut that in half for BS 3. So you have a ~20-25% chance to pen a tank in cover, and then only a 33% chance to kill it with that one shot. That's better than trying to glance it to deal with ML spam, but a single Vanquisher is far from reliable.

Each time someone says _______ is good at killing _____ someone can always say, "but if someone is playing a 'given list or army' then you'll lose or won't do well", or "if you have a 'smart' or 'good' player he won't fall for that or wont let you do it." If anyone out there knows who this magical unicorn of a player is i'd like to meet him, because I'm sure its not me and I also know it's no one I've ever seen post. No one is perfect and no one, even a great tournament player who uses mathhammer, is going to do the perfect thing every time. With the randomness that dice bring to a game I haven't met one player that doesn't start losing there cool when dice that should have been successful are not, especially people who rely on mathhammer. Mainly because they get there confidence from the math. Once that confidence is shaken, or they get angry, which is usually the case, is when they start making mistakes. And yes, it may be a bad strategy to count on "bad rolls", but that's not the plan, its to take advantage of them, and the mistakes that follow, when they do, because nothing is certain in this game. Telling a player that the advice he is giving, based on experience, isn't sound isn't helpful especially since its obviously working for him. Before telling other players "that won't work" you would have to know their play enviroment, not their "most likely" play enviroment. You don't know how good their opponents are or if they'll ever even see a Tau player. Instead of criticizing someone's choices why not talk about your own and why it works for you. That might help other players, instead of just bashing what other people do.


I've personally had a lot of damage done to my armies by Vindicators, which I consider the best vehicle for its cost/role in the game. It seems to me that a demolisher cannon on a leman russ would be pretty good too, even though the cost to usefulness doesn't seem to be as good, though I could be wrong on that since I have never used one. I use a single Vanquisher and I have to say it has not been kind to me, hitting on a 4+ with one shot a turn hurts my face. I've thought about adding Pask for the BS bump, but I feel like I would be putting a bandaid on a bullet hole. Since I don't see many Space Marine players, mainly Tau and Eldar, I'm thinking about using the Eradicator, though the Colossus might be better since it can also handle MeQ, its fewer points and better range.

urion wrote:I'm thinking about using the Eradicator, though the Colossus might be better since it can also handle MeQ, its fewer points and better range.

Eradicators are pretty neat, also since thier blast isn't ordnance it can fire its heavy botlters at full BS. I'd run 2 per squadron to ensure overkill wiping out units. Nothing more annoying than units of 2 or 3 survivors bidding behind aegis.

Another to consider if you don't mind the AV 12 is the manticore. It does D3 S10 large blasts AP 4 and is barrage so is liekly to reduce/ignore armour saves. It is also excellent against vehicles with its 2 dice lick the highest armour pen and S10. Only down side is no squadroning

 urion wrote:
With the randomness that dice bring to a game I haven't met one player that doesn't start losing there cool when dice that should have been successful are not, especially people who rely on mathhammer.

Sounds like you only play against bad players. A good player who understands the math knows that "75% chance of success" does not mean "I will always succeed and get mad if I fail".

Telling a player that the advice he is giving, based on experience, isn't sound isn't helpful especially since its obviously working for him.

Sorry, but "it works for me" is almost worthless because there's such a wide range of players out there. You can get away with using a bad list and have it "work" consistently if you're only playing against the 10 year olds with battleforce armies. If the math says that X is better than Y then that is all that matters, your anecdotal evidence about how you always "roll well" with Y is irrelevant.

Instead of criticizing someone's choices why not talk about your own and why it works for you.

If you don't want to have your choices criticized then don't post on a forum. Forums are for discussion, not merely stating your opinion and having everyone agree with it.

And again you reply with worthless criticisms that dont help anyone. All you do is bash other peoples input with your "I'm always right attitude".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
the Vanquisher has a 50% chance to hit and (if my Maths somewhat right ) an 88.75% chance to penetrate armor 13 ( Most common overall ) and 77.33% for AV14 due majorly to two D6 pen ( they are added together combine with S8) - ill admit I was never good At math to begin with and I'm tired now so it may as well be way off

Your math is way off. You have a 72.2% chance to penetrate AV 13 (once you hit), and 58.33 against AV 14. And cut that in half for BS 3. So you have a ~20-25% chance to pen a tank in cover, and then only a 33% chance to kill it with that one shot. That's better than trying to glance it to deal with ML spam, but a single Vanquisher is far from reliable.

Yeah. Your right - did the math for two tanks and had some ( ok alot ) of mistakes - note to self don't drink and derive.

Now in general with this current edition Mech guard performs extensively based upon the player - obviously a player who drives rear armor facing the enemy is going to lose alot more then a player who hugs cover and utilizes extensive tactics .

I do not think that it's proper to say that someone is a "bad " player because hey use something
Not often used ( looking at you Ogryn , Ratlings and Stormtroopers ) personally I've found throwing 30 Stormtroopers down on a beta strike is quite Devestating to Marines that like huddling behind ageis lines - granted it is a very expensive option (545 points if I recall ) I myself have bad it constantly preform well - while not often making off their points they provide enough of an scare factor and actually cause an extremely high amount of damage in the turns they are not to heavily depleted . - and as people will mention assaults at some point , 30 attacks on charge from a ten man squad is nothing to sniff about ( hotshot pistols and CCW ) in several games I've had Stormtroopers wipe full ten man squads in Assualt - of course you fire your tasty AP 3 pistols first - yes yes I know S3 isn't all that good but hell we are the guard - en mass fire is how it works -- - if it's worth taking 1 it's worth taking 3 -- First one will miss , second one won't do damage and the third one will hurt

Now as part of the this has anyone had favorable experience with mass use of pysker battle squads ?

 urion wrote:
And again you reply with worthless criticisms that dont help anyone.

Explaining that bad advice is bad is useful criticism. Complaining about how "worthless" that criticism is, however, is not.

 Peregrine wrote:

 urion wrote:
And again you reply with worthless criticisms that dont help anyone.

Explaining that bad advice is bad is useful criticism. Complaining about how "worthless" that criticism is, however, is not.

100% with Peregrine on this. Anecdotal evidence is literally irrelevant.
For example, I can say that I once had a ratling squad (3 men) scout onto the side of the board, snap fire one rifle (lost two to interceptor) and rend, pen and destroy the rear of a Skyray. But does that ratlings are an effective anti-Skyray beta-strike? Of course not.

JohnnyCage wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

It really is bad. STR 7 isn't enough to be a significant threat to vehicles, while AP 4 makes it pretty disappointing against MEQs/TEQs (the most common army in the game).

Apparently Peregrine has a wonderful meta with no necrons (you know, the metallic guys who use tesla destructiors almost exclusively out of all the guns available to them) in it at all. Good for him then.

To be fair, they get it for free on 100 point Flier Dedicated Transports that protect their crew in the event of their destruction, and Annihilation Barges that are undercosted AV13 skimmers. In addition, Tesla Destructors have the ability to grant extra hits...Autocannons don't.


S7 AP4 works for Necrons because of one broken undercosted transport, and another AV13 skimmer, that are both equipped with a weapon that generates additional hits.

Now when you guys deploy your mech lists do you try to keep your forces consolidated or do you break them down into mutliple strike groups?

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Now when you guys deploy your mech lists do you try to keep your forces consolidated or do you break them down into mutliple strike groups?

100% situational. If I'm playing against an army that relies on the alpha strike, and has no ordinance barrage weapons or very few long range blasts, I'll castle up behind an ADL and wait for pods to come down, for example. If I'm playing against an army like Farsight Bomb, or Screamer Star...really almost any Deathstar list that can split fire or assault, castling would be suicide. Spread out to make sure it can only really murder one unit at a time, while you run around and kill the rest of your opponent's army.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 urion wrote:
And again you reply with worthless criticisms that dont help anyone.

Explaining that bad advice is bad is useful criticism. Complaining about how "worthless" that criticism is, however, is not.

100% with Peregrine on this. Anecdotal evidence is literally irrelevant.
For example, I can say that I once had a ratling squad (3 men) scout onto the side of the board, snap fire one rifle (lost two to interceptor) and rend, pen and destroy the rear of a Skyray. But does that ratlings are an effective anti-Skyray beta-strike? Of course not.

Well no. Anecdotal evidence can compensate for failures in the assumptions that math-hammer makes, and is superior at taking into account mobility and target priority than raw math-hammer.