Tweaking the Chaos Space Marine Codex

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**Pilau Rice**

We would all love to see the Legions back in some shape or form, but as I mention in my initial post, I am not trying to add this in nor am I trying to re do the codex. My intention was to only correct some of the errors that I think they made as well as some of the stuff that they missed or forgot about.

They might go the way of Legion Tactics in the next Codex, but until that time we have what we have and I am just expanding on what we have and what GW could possibly address in the Codex.

**Sephyr**

This is good stuff. Easy, fluffy and fun to play. Here's hoping things start to lean in that direction.

**marrowick**

Feel free to use any ideas from here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550491.page

I would like to put some of your ideas in there as well if it is alright with you.

**Kain**

I believe Chaos should also have access to artificer armor.

Blinged out suits of power armor are hardly unique to the Imperium.

Then you can distribute it to special characters as you see fit, although the thought of a 2+ Juggerlord may terrify some people.

**welshhoppo**

I'd like to see a special type of 'Chosen' army that provides you with a 2+ save. Its kind of weird how the codex feels more like a Codex: Chaos Renegades than a Codex about the original legion, but somehow they all use the equipment from the heresy. It's almost as if they leave all their equipment behind except their boltguns.

**Kain**

welshhoppo wrote:
I'd like to see a special type of 'Chosen' army that provides you with a 2+ save. Its kind of weird how the codex feels more like a Codex: Chaos Renegades than a Codex about the original legion, but somehow they all use the equipment from the heresy. It's almost as if they leave all their equipment behind except their boltguns.

It's part of the deal to get horns, embellishments, and spikes on the cheap.

**ZebioLizard2**

Kain wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
I'd like to see a special type of 'Chosen' army that provides you with a 2+ save. Its kind of weird how the codex feels more like a Codex: Chaos Renegades than a Codex about the original legion, but somehow they all use the equipment from the heresy. It's almost as if they leave all their equipment behind except their boltguns.

It's part of the deal to get horns, embellishments, and spikes on the cheap.

What I mostly want is the ability to take an HQ squad. Why did the Chaos Lord and others suddenly loose Retinues?

**Exergy**

To me to fix the chaos codex you really have to fix the broken mechanics that the codex is based on.

So many units pay extra points for USR Fear, yet fear is useless
Many have the ability to pay extra points for USR Soul Blaze, but soul blaze is useless

Champions of Chaos is anoying and the Chaos boon table is hardly worth even rolling on. Roll, did i spawn or DP, no ok great move on with the game.
The boon table needs to be a little better, and all of the rules that are supposed to benefit it(Dark Apostle, Warlord Trait, Abby) only provide a reroll which is also pretty bad.
I suggest thus: If abby rolls a spawn or DP result he can pick a boon, other than spawn or DP.
If you have a Dark Apostle in the unit, you can add or subtract 1 from the second die OR reroll both.
If you have the reroll warlord trait you can add or subtract 1 from the first die OR reroll both.

Possessed need to change, along with mutilators and warptalons. Just because possessed did not get new models doesnt mean they are in a better boat. I think for every model in the unit, roll on the chaos boon table at the start of the game and apply it to the whole unit. Any spawn or DP, simply remove the model from the game.

**Sasori**

I've always thought that each unit of Chosen should get a free roll on the boon table, then apply that result to the unit. Ignoring Spawnhood, no boon, and DP.

**Pilau Rice**

marrowick wrote:
Feel free to use any ideas from here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550491.page

I would like to put some of your ideas in there as well if it is alright with you.

I'm open to discussion certainly

A lot of the suggestions here that have been made are very good, but they would require greater thought and writing, rather than just tweaking. As I keep pointing out, this isn't an attempt at re writing the codex, just to make it slightly more playable with things I believe they have missed out, they could have include or could still include in the codex's current incarnation. I don't believe that many of the suggestions would ever seen their way into the existing codex as it is, they could change the way the Boon Table works and the Champion of Chaos rule, but I don't think they will address these issues until the next one is out. Hopefully we haven't all given up on the Dark Gods by then though.

**Slayer le boucher**

personnaly i think Zerkers should have 2A base, And a rule that permits them to assault even out of a closed transports.

Assault Specialists- in the Turn a Berzerker squad disembark from a transport, they can Assault that turn, but in doing so they forfeit their shooting phase.

If the unit is joined by a Character with the MoK, thay still can use this rule to assault.

Also the two who can get Plasma pistols has options, should also have acces to special CCW, Power Weapons +10pts, LC 12pts(25 for a pair), PFist+ 20, Eviscerator for +25pts.

Also for the DPrince, upgrading him to Khorne, doesn't give him anything right now...

When upgrading to a Khorne Prince he should get the Rampage and Feel No Pain rules.

Chaos Boons, Dark Apotheosis should be changed in a way that when the Character is morphed he retain all his special rules, wargear and Psy Powers, precedent Boons, he Become a Dprince of the approriate god if he has a Mark.

**Dakkamite**

This^

No CC specialist in the game should have less than 2A base.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Basic Chaos Space Marines need to be at least one point cheaper than what they are right now. Also, VotLW needs to be vastly improved, I'm thinking it should give them Stubborn and let them re-roll failed morale and pinning tests. Its good, but still nowhere near as good as ATSKNF, hence they they are still cheaper than vanilla marines.

**Frozen Ocean**

Berserkers need to be as they were in the previous edition. It is absolutely shameful that they are out-performed in melee by Plague Marines (not to mention that Plagues are better in many other regards). Furthermore, the Mark of Khorne is out-performed by the Mark of Slaanesh when it comes to close combat. I do very much like the idea of Shred on the chainaxes, though, so that buying them is an actual upgrade and not just a waste (and it is very fitting for them).

Tzeentch needs to be improved in every way. Perhaps the Mark granting Soul Blaze would be good (even though Soul Blaze is kind of crap, the fact that it is the only upgrade given by the Icon is just awful), and the Icon could give an additional improvement to the invulnerable save? Icons can only be carried by squads, and, as of yet, it is entirely pointless to put the Mark of Tzeentch on Chaos Marines, even moreso with the Icon. What about Inferno Bolts adding +1 Str? This post details the problems with Thousand Sons.

Again with a fallback to the previous edition, CSMs should be Ld9 with the Aspiring Champion providing the 10. Ferrum_Sanguinis' suggestion is also quite good! Also, it's absolutely silly that they don't come with a CCW anymore (or can swap their bolters for one? What? DX).

I support the idea of adding the old generic Daemon Weapons to the Forbidden Armory.

EDIT: What about Tzeentch (either the Mark or the Icon, although not sure if this is worth 15pts) forcing the opponent to re-roll passed Soul Blaze results (inflicted by a model/unit with the Mark/Icon of Tzeentch)?

**Pilau Rice**

Bezerkers are a bit flat but I don't think we are going to see a change to their base attacks any time soon nor access to additional weapons other than the 2 Plasma Pistols, which was the same last edition as well.

Plague Marines are awesome in close combat, but I guess that's more because of their equipment and high toughness. Does anyone know the math behind how a battle between an assaulting Bezerker Squad would do against a Plague Marine squad as they currently are?

I think the mark of Tzeentch is fine giving an invulnerable save, although the 6+ where one isn't there is poor. But the Icon is rather drab. Perhaps it could grant shrouded through Magical Arts? But then you make having an Invulnerable redundant I guess. Maybe forces rolls of a 6 to be rerolled?

It feels like I am slowly being asked to re write the entire codex

**Zanderchief**

Marks on Daemon Engines (after all they are daemonic) would be a nice way to add spice.

I would also say that any HQ's with a mark unlock cultists troops.
Why does a Lord do it but a Daemon Prince does not? Of course no MoK Sorcerer.

Reduce the randomness of possessed so you can actually send them to do a job (I don't mind so much that they are costed badly - just that i have no tactical use for them because they are so random).

**Exergy**

Dakkamite wrote:
This^

No CC specialist in the game should have less than 2A base.

DE wyches?

**rohansoldier**

jifel wrote:
I'd love to see Legion tactics more than anything else (see Chapter tactics from C:SM)

My ideas: Note that in certain instances, the below will produce "free upgrades" (-1 points to a 1 point upgrade) This is intended.

Emperor's Children: All units taken in multiples of 6 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of Slaanesh" upgrade.
Devastators may purchase Sonic Blasters at the same price as Noise Marines

World Eaters: All units taken in multiples of 8 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of Khorne" upgrade
The army gains +1 to all Deny the Witch rolls

Death Guard: All units taken in multiples of 7 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of nurgle" upgrade
All template weapons gain poison (4+) and improve their AP by (Ap. 5 -> Ap. 4)

Thousand Sons: All units taken in multiples of 9 gain a -1 point reduction to the "mark of Tzeentch" upgrade
Any model may purchase "Inferno bolts" for 2 points. If one model in a unit does so, the entire unit must. All bolt weapons (pistol, guns, combi, Heavy) gain Ap. 3

Iron Warriors: One Fast attack slot may be exchanged for an extra Fortification slot in the primary detachment.
All Iron Warriors have the Tank Hunter (buildings) rule. In addition, your opponent receives -1 to all cover saves provided by Fortifications.

Alpha Legion: All units without the Bulky or extremely bulky special rule gain the Infiltrate rule (Vehicles may not benefit from this)
After choosing table sides, before Deployment, write down two pieces of terrain anywhere on the board. Reveal at any time. Once revealed, they become Dangerous terrain, which may not be ignored by Move through cover. In addition, armor saves must be rerolled against wounds caused by the sabotaged terrain.

Night Lords: All models gain the "Fear" and "Night Vision" special rules. On any turn a Night Lord unit makes a charge, an enemy unit must reroll successful Leadership checks. Units usually immune to Fear must take the Leadership check, but may never be forced to reroll it.
Night Lords may choose for the first turn to be Night Fight, and on a 4+ the second turn is also Night Fight.

Word Bearers: Before reserves are rolled for, any character (and as many as you wish) may take a Leadership check. If passed, Daemon units that Deepstrike within 6" of that Word Bearer Character do not scatter.
All Word Bearer units gain the "Crusader" special rule.

Black Legion: All Black Legion units taken in multiples of ten gain a -1 point per model reduction to the "Veterans of the Long War" special rule.
All Black Legion models reroll 1s to wound when attacking Space Marines (including variant codexes), Imperial Guard, or Sisters of Battle

Red Corsairs: When the primary detachment, Chaos Daemons become Allies of Convenience, and Space Marines become Battle brothers. Note that Special characters from C:SM may not be taken. Space Marines replace ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics with Legion Tactics (Red corsairs). Note that units with the "Daemon" special rule may not be included in a Red corsairs detachment.
Red corsairs may embark in their Allies dedicated transports if Battle Brothers, and vice versa. Red Corsairs (and Space Marine allies) gain the Stubborn special rule but may neve purchase "Veterans of the Long War"

I like this and in fact had worked up something similar on Legion Tactics myself. I will say though that I think more could be done with the god legions than just a discount on the mark.

For example, I would give all Emperors Children units Fleet (or HQ's and Elites at the very least) as long as they aren't vehicles, Bulky or Extremely Bulky, or riding a bike. I would also allow Havocs the option of Blastmasters if you are going to give them Sonic Blasters.

Perhaps allow Berzerkers Counter Attack and allow Furious Charge to work in every round in a World Eaters army. Although I do like the +1 to Deny the Witch rolls.

**Pilau Rice**

But again, this is a tweaking of the existing codex and not an attempt at rewriting it nor to add Legion rules into it.

**Frozen Ocean**

Zanderchief wrote:
Marks on Daemon Engines (after all they are daemonic) would be a nice way to add spice.

I would also say that any HQ's with a mark unlock cultists troops.
Why does a Lord do it but a Daemon Prince does not? Of course no MoK Sorcerer.

Reduce the randomness of possessed so you can actually send them to do a job (I don't mind so much that they are costed badly - just that i have no tactical use for them because they are so random).

All of this.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Bezerkers are a bit flat but I don't think we are going to see a change to their base attacks any time soon nor access to additional weapons other than the 2 Plasma Pistols, which was the same last edition as well.

I didn't mean access to additional weapons! One issue is the change to Furious Charge in this edition, meaning they no longer get +1I in the first round of combat, which is a bigger deal than it sounds.

Plague Marines are awesome in close combat, but I guess that's more because of their equipment and high toughness. Does anyone know the math behind how a battle between an assaulting Bezerker Squad would do against a Plague Marine squad as they currently are?

All of their attacks are Poisoned (4+). This makes them incredibly lethal for a unit that isn't dedicated close-combat. Remember that this means they re-roll against 4 or less Toughness (which is just about everything). They also have the excellent Blight Grenades to neuter charging enemies. It's fine that they have Defensive Grenades and Zerks don't, because Plague Marines are all about defense. Nevertheless, it's still a factor (although Berserkers do have Counter-Attack).

Mathhammer wrote:
Assuming unit sizes of 10 vs standard Tactical Marines, because it's a good base:

Plague Marines
1 Attack + Plague Knife = 2A each = 18 Poisoned attacks
+ Plague Champion, 3A = 21 Poisoned attacks

Causing 2.625 Wounds on average.

Charging

31 Poisoned attacks - 3.875 Wounds.

Khorne Berserkers

21 attacks, 2.333 Wounds.

Charging
Rage and Furious Charge give them +2A and +1Str (for the charge only).

41 Str 5 Attacks - 6.074 Wounds.

Is their effectiveness during a charge really worth taking them over Plague Marines, who are much tougher, have access to special weapons (and come with bolters), and are just... well, they're Plague Marines. Do I even need to elaborate? However, the change of giving chainaxes Shred is possibly sufficient.

I think the mark of Tzeentch is fine giving an invulnerable save, although the 6+ where one isn't there is poor. But the Icon is rather drab. Perhaps it could grant shrouded through Magical Arts? But then you make having an Invulnerable redundant I guess. Maybe forces rolls of a 6 to be rerolled?

Someone suggested that the Mark of Tzeentch grants a 5++ to units that don't have invulnerable saves, which would be a definite start. I do very much like the idea of the Icon providing re-rollable Soul Blaze. Combined with re-rollable failed 6s for invulnerable saves might make the Icon worth it (and make Soul Blaze actually decent). It would, at least, make Tzeentch better than sub-optimal! More Soul Blaze also means more shooting damage, which is supposedly what Tzeentch is all about (and, unlike the toughness provided by invulns, is not a niche explored by any other God).

It feels like I am slowly being asked to re write the entire codex

For the Greater Good! Wait...

Seriously, though, you're a good platform for creating 'tweaks' from a lot of community feedback and discussion.

**Pilau Rice**

Frozen Ocean wrote:

I didn't mean access to additional weapons! One issue is the change to Furious Charge in this edition, meaning they no longer get +1I in the first round of combat, which is a bigger deal than it sounds.

As I mention here

Pilau Rice wrote:

Bezerkers did take a hit, what with their attacks being reduced by 1 and Furious Charge getting a knock down to.

and I was referring to this comment in regards to 2 weapons.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Also the two who can get Plasma pistols has options, should also have acces to special CCW, Power Weapons +10pts, LC 12pts(25 for a pair), PFist+ 20, Eviscerator for +25pts.

Frozen Ocean wrote:
All of their attacks are Poisoned (4+). This makes them incredibly lethal for a unit that isn't dedicated close-combat. Remember that this means they re-roll against 4 or less Toughness (which is just about everything). They also have the excellent Blight Grenades to neuter charging enemies. It's fine that they have Defensive Grenades and Zerks don't, because Plague Marines are all about defense. Nevertheless, it's still a factor (although Berserkers do have Counter-Attack).

Agreed, like I say

Pilau Rice wrote:
Plague Marines are awesome in close combat, but I guess that's more because of their equipment and high toughness

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Is their effectiveness during a charge really worth taking them over Plague Marines, who are much tougher, have access to special weapons (and come with bolters), and are just... well, they're Plague Marines. Do I even need to elaborate? However, the change of giving chainaxes Shred is possibly sufficient.

Well, yes because it's what you want them to be doing if you are assaulting, the problem is assault is not so hot this edition and with Axes actually being worth taking, they would improve.

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Someone suggested that the Mark of Tzeentch grants a 5++ to units that don't have invulnerable saves, which would be a definite start. I do very much like the idea of the Icon providing re-rollable Soul Blaze. Combined with re-rollable failed 6s for invulnerable saves might make the Icon worth it (and make Soul Blaze actually decent). It would, at least, make Tzeentch better than sub-optimal! More Soul Blaze also means more shooting damage, which is supposedly what Tzeentch is all about (and, unlike the toughness provided by invulns, is not a niche explored by any other God).

Yes, it's what I put as an amendment in the tweaks

I think having re rolls to hits of a 6 would be sufficient if it isn't too powerful, I wouldn't have Soul Blaze as well, one or the other.

Frozen Ocean wrote:

Seriously, though, you're a good platform for creating 'tweaks' from a lot of community feedback and discussion.

Thanks, I aim to please .. and not make a mess

**Dakkamite**

Exergy wrote:
Dakkamite wrote:
This^

No CC specialist in the game should have less than 2A base.

DE wyches?

Especially Wyches. You'd think the champions of a gladiator arena in the most brutal cesspool of the galaxy would be reasonable at something other than popping tanks (possible only to a random allocation of haywire grenades as wargear)

They should be en-mass non-PW attack spam troops in the same vein as Ork boyz, flagellants, striking scorpions and what not. Character and monster hunters too.

Plan to get some and they're certainly getting the custom unit treatment when I do.

Edit: Bring back Thousand Son's old rules - immunity to S4 or worse and they become useless without a sorc in the unit. Fluffy and useful, what more could you ask for?

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Pilau Rice wrote:

It feels like I am slowly being asked to re write the entire codex

I appreciate the restrained Errata focus you are trying to maintain with these. A lot of the suggestions are quite large deviations from what already exists, and I don't like that sort of thing even in official rules.

Keeping things at the 'tweak' level is good.

**Zanderchief**

Yeah well no one has gone out of their way and stated the big changes like:

"Give us drop pods and all that other pre-hersay stuff SM's get"

So i think the suggests are still tweaks. Credit to everyone for not going OTT tbh as after all this is the interwebz.

**Pilau Rice**

Zanderchief wrote:
Yeah well no one has gone out of their way and stated the big changes like:

"Give us drop pods...

dracpanzer wrote:
Um, Drop Pods?

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:

It feels like I am slowly being asked to re write the entire codex

I appreciate the restrained Errata focus you are trying to maintain with these. A lot of the suggestions are quite large deviations from what already exists, and I don't like that sort of thing even in official rules.

Keeping things at the 'tweak' level is good.

Thank you

I might write a separate one and go full hog, but like I say, my intention with this one is to use the existing Codex and only do reasonable things with it, so won't add anything unbelievable or unlikely to get changed in this edition of the Codex.