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WYSIWYG is indeed enforced, but there are soooo many 3rd party companies making weapon bits to use.

GW for a long time didn't even sell weapon bits separately after stopping bits sales.

I personally did convert my 3rd party models using GW plastic weapons (obtained through a bits reseller), but there are more and more options for this all the time.

But they arent necessarily cheaper than GW.

Lets for example say you buy 20 orks from Company X but their guns arent even close to looking like Loota guns.
So you go to Bits company Y and buy 20 guns.

Are they still cheaper than 20 GW "full Lootas"?
I'd have my doubts being honest from what I've seen of some indie suppliers.

Im not defending GWs price policy - certain aspects defy belief but on the whole they are not that bad imho.
(and yes Im in a full time, well paid job yadda yadda yadda).

Ratius wrote:

I will obtain my rules as I see fit, using whatever means I want and use whatever miniatures I want, safe in the knowledge I'm not ever likely to see a 'GW' tournament event any time soon according to current corporate mantra and very very unlikely to find myself drunk enough to think gaming in a GW store is going to be a good idea, as I just can't drink that much any more.

Having said that, many (most?) indie tournamenes, still espouse a WYSIWYG policy.
So whilst having non GW models is fine, the need to model one with a melta gun/plasma/bolter etc still exists.
So it dosent circumnavigate having non-GW models completely.

One might have a cool Ork sculpt from "X minatures" but you'll still most likely need a GW Loota gun to comply with indie rules?

Other than you not being able to pick a worse example of that rule in the game than the ork Deff Gun... (it's a hybrid mix of any and all weapons)

The gun barrels are a very difficult thing to IP protect and I think there are several companies making guns that would serve for good weapon swaps, identifiable as the various 40k firearms for several races.

Noir wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Noir wrote:

I know all that. I'm ask about the part where he ask did warhammer just now become pay to when, as we all know that how it been for years.

New units coming out being a 'must have' has always been a trait, it should be expected in a profit making company with half a shred of sense.

But 'pay to win' isn't necessarily true, in the sense he's suggesting. There isn't a pricing structure according to the 'killy' rating of a unit, as that's against GW's thinking on taking mixed armies and the design team's extreme dislike of 'spam'.

JJ and co really want you to take a mixed army, they've always wanted you to take a mixed army. The parking lots of razorbacks in 5th made them sad pandas, just as the massed flying croissant armies of 6th have, it makes me sad as well, the difference being they view that as the fault of the type of gamer, I view it as the fault of the army books/list building construction method.

Stated intent vs. action. I go with actions, so I sticking with it been pay to win for years. I can say I a nice guy, but if I hit you over the head with a bottle then walk away with your money. Do you still think I right in saying I a nice guy.

I never suggested GW corporate is a nice guy, on the nice guy scale it's rated as 'Hannibal Lector bastard' level, but whilst it's guilty of a slough of things, the 'highest price for the killiest unit' isn't one of them, as far as I'm aware, because it doesn't do that, unless you can prove that to the contrary? Empire greatswords came out, very bloody expensive due to the slot they occupy, most empire players muttered and grumbled and thanked their stars that the war machines they were using didn't go up in price, because both the army book and the rules made their war machines entirely amazing, but they were not hiked up. The greatswords did not suddenly become the 'must haves' and continued to have fairly mediocre utility in the army/games.
Chaos units recently also followed this, those utterly ugly new 'melee oblits' whatever they're called, never see them, they're cast in resin, cost the fething earth and are ugly as skinned quim, but also their rules are utterly forgettable, they just aren't much good, noone take em. So they sit in their boxes, expensive, ugly and not used, due to shoddy rules for them.

Other than you not being able to pick a worse example of that rule in the game than the ork Deff Gun... (it's a hybrid mix of any and all weapons)

The gun barrels are a very difficult thing to IP protect and I think there are several companies making guns that would serve for good weapon swaps, identifiable as the various 40k firearms for several races.

Point taken, it was genuinely an off the top of the head one.
but lets say you have 2-3 big units of proxied Firewarriors - would their guns be viable from an indie producer?

Or even eldar. I've seen lots of cool Elf scuplts from 3rd parties that could be DE but their guns? Much harder to get imho?

Yeah, just pulling your leg Ratius, as that was funny.



Pulse rifles. Use em on your tau stand ins as the regular weapon.



in fact, any race you field, whatever the minis, if they have a standard troopers gun and you say 'this is a ****** army, the standard troops are equipped with the standard guns for that race, all special weapons are clearly identified with little flags/back banners, the banners with a ** symbol are *** guns and the *** symbols are *** guns' then it's fine.

Or you could just write 'i has melta gun' on the rim of the base...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Noir wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Noir wrote:

I know all that. I'm ask about the part where he ask did warhammer just now become pay to when, as we all know that how it been for years.

New units coming out being a 'must have' has always been a trait, it should be expected in a profit making company with half a shred of sense.

But 'pay to win' isn't necessarily true, in the sense he's suggesting. There isn't a pricing structure according to the 'killy' rating of a unit, as that's against GW's thinking on taking mixed armies and the design team's extreme dislike of 'spam'.

JJ and co really want you to take a mixed army, they've always wanted you to take a mixed army. The parking lots of razorbacks in 5th made them sad pandas, just as the massed flying croissant armies of 6th have, it makes me sad as well, the difference being they view that as the fault of the type of gamer, I view it as the fault of the army books/list building construction method.

Stated intent vs. action. I go with actions, so I sticking with it been pay to win for years. I can say I a nice guy, but if I hit you over the head with a bottle then walk away with your money. Do you still think I right in saying I a nice guy.

I never suggested GW corporate is a nice guy, on the nice guy scale it's rated as 'Hannibal Lector bastard' level, but whilst it's guilty of a slough of things, the 'highest price for the killiest unit' isn't one of them, as far as I'm aware, because it doesn't do that, unless you can prove that to the contrary? Empire greatswords came out, very bloody expensive due to the slot they occupy, most empire players muttered and grumbled and thanked their stars that the war machines they were using didn't go up in price, because both the army book and the rules made their war machines entirely amazing, but they were not hiked up. The greatswords did not suddenly become the 'must haves' and continued to have fairly mediocre utility in the army/games.
Chaos units recently also followed this, those utterly ugly new 'melee oblits' whatever they're called, never see them, they're cast in resin, cost the fething earth and are ugly as skinned quim, but also their rules are utterly forgettable, they just aren't much good, noone take em. So they sit in their boxes, expensive, ugly and not used, due to shoddy rules for them.

I pick the last 3 core rule book, each one change the power level of the current meta. Meaning most people had to buy new toys to stay at there close to there current power level. Action vs. intent every time. The price isn't even really the biggest problem in the buy to win.

Thats cool

Suppose we're a little offtopic, was only saying that company models X + WYSIWYG guns from company Y *might* cost as much as GW ones especially in many indie tournaments.

Anywho!

Noir wrote:

I pick the last 3 core rule book, each one change the power level of the current meta. Meaning most people had to buy new toys to stay at there close to there current power level. Action vs. intent every time. The price isn't even really the biggest problem in the buy to win.

Well, 'you need the new models because they are cool' has always been a thing.

It's just not the thing the OP was talking about. The OP was talking about pricing something higher because it's better in it's section of the army build, so suggesting that the best choice in rare for XXX army was priced higher because it was the best choice and not because it's finecast or far more recently released. I don't think they do that and what you've just written doesn't support that idea either.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Noir wrote:

I pick the last 3 core rule book, each one change the power level of the current meta. Meaning most people had to buy new toys to stay at there close to there current power level. Action vs. intent every time. The price isn't even really the biggest problem in the buy to win.

Well, 'you need the new models because they are cool' has always been a thing.

It's just not the thing the OP was talking about. The OP was talking about pricing something higher because it's better in it's section of the army build, so suggesting that the best choice in rare for XXX army was priced higher because it was the best choice and not because it's finecast or far more recently released. I don't think they do that and what you've just written doesn't support that idea either.

In all fairness witch elves ARE the killiest unit in the book.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Noir wrote:

I pick the last 3 core rule book, each one change the power level of the current meta. Meaning most people had to buy new toys to stay at there close to there current power level. Action vs. intent every time. The price isn't even really the biggest problem in the buy to win.

Well, 'you need the new models because they are cool' has always been a thing.

It's just not the thing the OP was talking about. The OP was talking about pricing something higher because it's better in it's section of the army build, so suggesting that the best choice in rare for XXX army was priced higher because it was the best choice and not because it's finecast or far more recently released. I don't think they do that and what you've just written doesn't support that idea either.

What he asked was this... Does this mean GW is now Magic with miniatures?. He just pointed out the price of a box first. Now how you do vs. flyer when 6th came out and people used them. No army add things to counter it I guess. Like I said it not the price that makes it a buy to win game that a small part, it how the rules are change to gimp what is great and buff what just OK that make it that way. I'll ask the OP again how is it "just becoming pay to win", when it has been that way for years.

Meaning most people had to buy new toys to stay at there close to there current power level.

Not totally sure of that Noir.
Certainly quad rips, trip Wks and multi Cents are great but as for having to buy them to build competitive lists, not sure at all.

That comes down to whether you want to play hyper competitive tourneys , casual games or more semi comp games?

For the former sure, those kits are necessary (mostly) but for the middle - lots more builds can still do well and as for the latter its a mix, maybe one kit or two.
One certainly dosent have to buy 4 rips to play semi friendly games and have fun.

Also coming up with "cheaper" builds to beat those is arguably more fun - saw a 60 man typhus zombie (proxy) army get 3rd in a tourney recently VS quad rips.

This is what started me on my GW bycott. No more new armies. I'm planning to focus on malifaux and possibly infinity and/or bolt action instead.

 Ratius wrote:

WYSIWYG is indeed enforced, but there are soooo many 3rd party companies making weapon bits to use.

GW for a long time didn't even sell weapon bits separately after stopping bits sales.

I personally did convert my 3rd party models using GW plastic weapons (obtained through a bits reseller), but there are more and more options for this all the time.

But they arent necessarily cheaper than GW.

Lets for example say you buy 20 orks from Company X but their guns arent even close to looking like Loota guns.
So you go to Bits company Y and buy 20 guns.

Are they still cheaper than 20 GW "full Lootas"?
I'd have my doubts being honest from what I've seen of some indie suppliers.

Im not defending GWs price policy - certain aspects defy belief but on the whole they are not that bad imho.
(and yes Im in a full time, well paid job yadda yadda yadda).

You're misinterpreting WYSIWIG.

You don't have to have non-GW Orks with weapons that look like GW Loota guns. You just need Orks armed with something that is clearly different from all other weapons and similar to each other. You then tell your opponent that these are Lootas. The entire point of WYSIWIG isn't "the models have to look like GW miniatures." The point of WYSIWIG is to prevent confusion between different models in the army.

If you non-GW Lootas look nothing like GW Lootas and have guns that look nothing like GW Lootas' guns, but they are clearly a heavy weapon that is clearly different from every other weapon. you have satisfied WYSIWIG.

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
This is what started me on my GW bycott. No more new armies. I'm planning to focus on malifaux and possibly infinity and/or bolt action instead.

none of my armies are new lol

Saldiven wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

WYSIWYG is indeed enforced, but there are soooo many 3rd party companies making weapon bits to use.

GW for a long time didn't even sell weapon bits separately after stopping bits sales.

I personally did convert my 3rd party models using GW plastic weapons (obtained through a bits reseller), but there are more and more options for this all the time.

But they arent necessarily cheaper than GW.

Lets for example say you buy 20 orks from Company X but their guns arent even close to looking like Loota guns.
So you go to Bits company Y and buy 20 guns.

Are they still cheaper than 20 GW "full Lootas"?
I'd have my doubts being honest from what I've seen of some indie suppliers.

Im not defending GWs price policy - certain aspects defy belief but on the whole they are not that bad imho.
(and yes Im in a full time, well paid job yadda yadda yadda).

You're misinterpreting WYSIWIG.

You don't have to have non-GW Orks with weapons that look like GW Loota guns. You just need Orks armed with something that is clearly different from all other weapons and similar to each other. You then tell your opponent that these are Lootas. The entire point of WYSIWIG isn't "the models have to look like GW miniatures." The point of WYSIWIG is to prevent confusion between different models in the army.

If you non-GW Lootas look nothing like GW Lootas and have guns that look nothing like GW Lootas' guns, but they are clearly a heavy weapon that is clearly different from every other weapon. you have satisfied WYSIWIG.

As long as your other lootas units are armed with the same weapons.

Ratius- 3rd party heavy weapons and the like might not be cheaper, but GW doesn't sell all their weapons as bits, so in the end they actually force people to buy from 3rd party sources in that regard.

Sometimes it's availability, not cost, that cause people to turn to 3rd party sources. Or, appearance- a lot of GW models can be quite comical.

Kroothawk pointed out these harpies the other day to someone asking about alternatives- they look amazing, but are probably as expensive or more than GW's:

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=pl04&prodname=Harpies+of+Apocalypse&id=118&Itemid=143

The same goes for many of Titan Forge's products. But as FW prices show, for really good quality sculpts people will pay even more than GW prices. But, to me a lot of GW's kits lately have been cartoony And really expensive... I'm not going to pay a premium price for a model I don't like, when I can get a 3rd party model that is amazing for the same price, or sometimes much less.

GW still has the edge in plastics, of course, but with more and more companies figuring out resin alternatives, it's only a matter of time before that advantage erodes, too.

Wait a couple months until they are no longer the brand spankin' new hotness.

You will be able to get them on secondary market for reasonable prices.

Lovely models, but the price is too much to justify it.
I'd want atleast a unit of 30, so £105 or so.


Also, GW's pricing has no real rules or structure to it.
Skaven special choices are a good show of this.

Jezzails - £10.50 each in finecast.
Low on points and dont do a great deal really for what you pay.

Globadiers - £7.20 each, metal and ancient sculpts.
They are pretty decent, but still nothing to write home about i guess.

Plague censer bearers - £4.35 each, metal.
These guys are a pretty solid choice if you have a unit of monks in the army.
Really do hit bloody hard and i run them every game.

To me, the cheapest option is actually the best on price here.
But in terms of comparison to other units, those jezzails run you £63 for 6.
For £61.50 you can get yourself 3 doomwheels / catapaults / warp lightning cannons.

I know which will be the most effective

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

When Mike from Showcase stopped singing the praises of the company, the sky officially fell. Someone should have walked into the GW boardroom with a print out of what he said here rolled up and started slapping people with it.

What is this you're referencing? Do you have a summary of what he said? Just curious as I'm not familiar with the situation.


Also, I agree there is basically zero reason not to use 3rd party units if you like them. That hasn't ever been an issue in my city, since GW does not have any stores here, despite being like the 11th or 12th largest city in the US, but I can't say I've exactly longed for their stores over our great FLGS's.

How did people think that GW was going to pay for their 'win' against Chapterhouse?

The Auld Grump

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

We now have zero incentives to hold off purchasing other manufacturer's products, as GW have entirely given up on tournament and tournament support for indy stores, reduced and discouraged gaming in their own stores and become a boutique retailer.

When Mike from Showcase stopped singing the praises of the company, the sky officially fell. Someone should have walked into the GW boardroom with a print out of what he said here rolled up and started slapping people with it.

Speaking of, is Mike even still on here? I haven't seen him post in a very long time.

While the price is certainly ludicrous, implying that simply being able to afford them nets you a win is hilarious, to say the least.

Pay to win? No.

Expensive as hell? Yes.

 RiTides wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
Actually, they just became, "Here's another reason to buy miniatures from our small-studio competitors."

Exactly

 AduroT wrote:
Just remember, if you get proxie models from another company, you won't be able to use them at official GW tournaments or on the many open game days hosted at their stores.

Ummmm

1. The "many open game days"? Who cares, unless you ONLY have a GW store near you? Most discourage playing in store now, and focus on running demos.

2. "Official GW tournaments"??? Is there even one left? They pulled all tournament sponsorship, maybe they've got one they still run in the UK once a year? Other than that, all tournies are now independent, and the VAST majority welcome 3rd party models.

I go to a GW store to play games because it is the only place nearby that I can go to. I consistently see people say the employees discourage playing in store and just run demos, but at least at my store that is entirely false. I go to local GW store 2-3 times a week and always pick up a couple matches against other regulars and the store manager is awesome. He's not in your face about buying things and doesn't care if you only come in to play games. The only times I see him run demos is the occasional person who wanders into the store unaware of what the hobby is. So I'm not sure where the stigma about GW stores has come from, maybe it is true about other stores but it's great at mine.

Starfarer- Mike the owner of Showcase Comics, who posts as mikhaila here, was always a huge supporter of GW. He made giant scenario tables for Games Days, was given the "Red Orktober" huge (10-foot long maybe?) BFG ship by GW after a Games Day... basically, he sold tons of GW product, ran tournaments, and got excellent support.

He still sells GW product and runs events, but he's posted on here that he moves a lot less of it now that more and more of their policies have made it difficult for independent stores. Add to that their pulling any tournament support, their gutting of Games Days, and overall terrible treatment of retailers... and he simply doesn't say much positive about them anymore (although being a class act, I haven't seen him post much negative, either).

He doesn't post on here too much anymore unfortunately, but he's still around and his store is thriving... just with a much more diverse gaming base than just GW games these days.

My FLGS owner had similar things to say about GW. They've certainly done their best lately to try to get independant retailers to stop carrying their stuff. The irony is while 5-10 years ago that was a death sentence for a hobby store, these days it usually isn't GW products keeping the doors open anymore, it's Magic and snacks. So other than annoy retailers who enjoy GW products, it's mostly just hurting GW themselves.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

We now have zero incentives to hold off purchasing other manufacturer's products, as GW have entirely given up on tournament and tournament support for indy stores, reduced and discouraged gaming in their own stores and become a boutique retailer.

When Mike from Showcase stopped singing the praises of the company, the sky officially fell. Someone should have walked into the GW boardroom with a print out of what he said here rolled up and started slapping people with it.

Speaking of, is Mike even still on here? I haven't seen him post in a very long time.

Still alive. Just older and quieter. Apologies for being so quiet. The situation with GW makes me angry. Not "mad for 10 minutes" angry. My anger stays with me and simmers, raising my bloodpressure and making me write page after page in my book of grudges. I carry anger and cherish it the way a Dwarf Lord holds a grudge. Sometimes reading Dakka reminds me of how much I love GW games and models...and how much i utterly detest their current policies towards retailers, and the utter neglect they treat us with. Getting angry right now..better quit thinking about it....

Lets see.....

-My twin girls are now 7, and we are homeschooling like we did their older siblings who are just finishing up college. (Yes, the girls were quite a surprise).
-Still running two stores. The mall store moved about 2.5 years ago to a huge location. Mall just sold and now they have plans for a huge demolition/rebuild in the coming couple of years. No clue how that affects us. The other store, in Bryn Mawr, we moved this week, after 20 years up the block. Bigger space, more tables, etc.
-Desperately wanting a new codex so I can paint another Ork army, not thrilled with the new apocalypse so holding at 4 stompers and a gargant.

GW sales are down about 50% from a few years ago. Co-incidentally, I've lost about 50% of the GW models I used to stock. Blisters are nearly gone, finecast seems like on the way out, and yet they are also pulling a lot of plastic kits from me. We used to carry Every single kit GW made. Now a ton of them are in crappy generic plastic bags, sold on the website, or by special order. Customers don't like to special order, and I hate to have crappy generic white boxes on my shelves and pay 20% more for them. I lose sales, GW loses sales, GW loses rack space in my store......Warmachine, Flames of War, Infinity, Bolt Action, Malifaux all game rack space. Running a lot of Magic events these days too.

The bat mik signal worked!

Great to hear from you, and glad to hear things are going well... keeping the blood pressure down is also a good idea, although the book of grudges gave me a good chuckle . I can actually picture you doing this!

Infinity is having a renaissance at my local store (and warmachine has been in full swing for some time). Awesome to hear that it and the other games are helping pick up the slack at yours.

Vive la Showcase!

Mike, glad to hear you're doing well and I'm happy to see other games are getting a bit more of a spotlight. Have you guys tried Kings of War or X-wing? Both are fantastic rule sets, and I'm finding I enjoy them both more than GW games. If you haven't, might be fun looking into them? Not trying to plug other games, just trying to help with game ideas if you're looking for more fresh stuff. I still hope to get out to Philly at some point and pop in to say hi and maybe get a game in of something.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Mike, glad to hear you're doing well and I'm happy to see other games are getting a bit more of a spotlight. Have you guys tried Kings of War or X-wing? Both are fantastic rule sets, and I'm finding I enjoy them both more than GW games. If you haven't, might be fun looking into them? Not trying to plug other games, just trying to help with game ideas if you're looking for more fresh stuff. I still hope to get out to Philly at some point and pop in to say hi and maybe get a game in of something.

We couldn't get any traction with KoW. Tried hard, and I like Joe and the guys at Mantic, but the sales just weren't there.

X-wing is huge. I order dozens of new releases and it's never enough. Both stores do very well with it and we are ordering in league kits and any other support FFG has for it.

Bummer that KoW didn't work. I'm surprised nobody who played Fantasy wasn't at least willing to give it a go-they didn't have to buy any new models even, just a couple books. I've head that quite a bit though, that some people enjoy the game, but not many people are buying the models. Glad X-Wing is flourishing though. It's become my new favorite game.

Total thread derail!!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


When Mike from Showcase stopped singing the praises of the company, the sky officially fell. Someone should have walked into the GW boardroom with a print out of what he said here rolled up and started slapping people with it.

Can someone provide a link to this? I would love to read it.