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 Dozer Blades wrote:
No for everyone because as I said it sets a precedence. Also it seems like the most correct interpretation as well.

Only in your opinion.

Adepticon and NOVA set a precedent that same psychic powers from different psykers stack, but you ignored that precedent and went the opposite way for Beakycon. Seems like you aren't the most objective source on precedents and "correct interpretations".

Tournament rulings mean literally nothing out side of their own tournament. They are the same as any other house-rule and not sufficiently weighty enough to be used on YMDC.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament rulings mean literally nothing out side of their own tournament. They are the same as any other house-rule and not sufficiently weighty enough to be used on YMDC.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament rulings mean literally nothing out side of their own tournament. They are the same as any other house-rule and not sufficiently weighty enough to be used on YMDC.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

You may want to check the Dictionary again, literally can now mean figuratively.

Figuratively speaking?

I didn't see this mentioned yet in the thread but am I interpreting the rule correctly?

If I have a command squad with 5 Condemnor Boltguns and all 5 hit Fateweaver (for example), Fateweaver would instantly get hit with 5 Perils? This is before rolling to wound as normal.

Since the rule for Psy-shock says weapon, I presume such but want to verify.

 Unholyllama wrote:
I didn't see this mentioned yet in the thread but am I interpreting the rule correctly?

If I have a command squad with 5 Condemnor Boltguns and all 5 hit Fateweaver (for example), Fateweaver would instantly get hit with 5 Perils? Since the rule for Psy-shock says weapon, I presume such but want to verify.

Yep, That's the simplest answer since Fateweaver is all by himself.

Five hits would also nuke seer council or a squad of psychic heralds attached to a unit of Screamers.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Five hits would also nuke seer council or a squad of psychic heralds attached to a unit of Screamers.

Depends on the size and whether or not every model suffers Perils from a single hit. Assuming it does not, you would need quite a few more than 5 to take out my Seer Councils. I run 'em big.

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament rulings mean literally nothing out side of their own tournament. They are the same as any other house-rule and not sufficiently weighty enough to be used on YMDC.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Buh? Tournament rulings mean nothing outside of their specific tournament. All words are appropriate.

What do you think "literally" means?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament rulings mean literally nothing out side of their own tournament. They are the same as any other house-rule and not sufficiently weighty enough to be used on YMDC.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Buh? Tournament rulings mean nothing outside of their specific tournament. All words are appropriate.

What do you think "literally" means?

Obviously, they mean something since some people care bout them (including people in this thread). Just because they mean almost nothing to the gaming community as a whole doesn't mean they mean literally nothing (i.e. no one in the gaming community cares about them). Unless you were just trying to hyperbolic, in which case I retract my statement.

While the wording is quite clear it's obvious this will be heatedly contested and that is part of the reason why what we see coming down from the GT level the next couple of months is going to have a lot of impact.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is the exact quote from the rule:

"Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

A unit of screamers with 4 heralds attached is not a psyker, BoP, or psychic pilot. ICs count as normal members of the unit for all rules purposes while attached. Screamers are not psykers so I'd say no effect RAW.

RAI, HIWPI: if the nearest model is a psyker or psyker is allocated a wound from said weapon, they and only they suffer a perils.

Edit: I highly doubt the intent is for one shot from a 10pt weapon to wipe out a 500pt warlock council with no saves allowed.

Obviously every psyker in the unit auto perils unless they have the Brotherhood override.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Obviously every psyker in the unit auto perils unless they have the Brotherhood override.

Your definition of obvious is tainted by personal interpretation.

The rule says psyker unit (etc). A screamer unit with 4 heralds attached meets 0 of those requirements.

Personally, I see it as a gift horse from GW on how to stabilize the 2++ rerollables. Whether it was intentional or not I'm ok with it. Granted it only hurts the two most unfun army builds to play against in 40k.

I'll just abide by whatever the event I'm attendings rule is. Honestly I see it more than likely, without a word from GW, playing out how Pretre is playing it. But I'll happily go to an event that makes you pick up a seer council or screamstar.

@hyv3mynd

It doesn't say Psyker unit. It say unit with the Psyker rule. Since the unit benefits from Psykers for things like Deny the Witch I'd say it qualifies as a unit with the psychic rule. But I'm admittedly biased

For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

Which means the Condemnor has a higher failure rate of 33% to 16.5%

Not sure why you think this only hurts the stars..... I may have an overriding hate for this gun because its quite vague and completely overpowered, but still doesn't mean its only effective on the stars.

I also like the fact that most of the people are ignoring that sisters have a way to get a 2+ rerollable in combat and a 3++ rerollable that is 1/4 the price of the stars and can be put on multiple units. It situationally different seeing as its only in combat, but its still abusable.

On a side note I posted the 17 bolt gun spam list, you lose 17 combi melta/flamer shots to bring 17 I hit to wound you shots. I will give you that you will probably likely only hit with 10 of them but tell me how 10 auto psyker wounds in addition to sisters fire doesn't affect arimes with psykers other than the stars.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

It is totally feasible the model with the special bolter could miss when rolling to hit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

It is totally feasible the model with the special bolter could miss when rolling to hit.

So exactly how many precedents are set for a 10pt wargear eliminating 500pts of models with a single 3+?

 hyv3mynd wrote:

So exactly how many precedents are set for a 10pt wargear eliminating 500pts of models with a single 3+?

It's going to have some trouble doing that. The only 1 wound psyker unit that isn't Brotherhood of Psykers is Eldar Warlocks.

Tzeentch Heralds only lose one wound a piece, and BoP take one wound on the unit (character first, then randomly anyone).

Two or more condemner boltguns are a problem though.

If C:AS gets to annihilate two units of psykers per detachment at 30" of range, it will change the meta, but it's not game breaking.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

It is totally feasible the model with the special bolter could miss when rolling to hit.

So exactly how many precedents are set for a 10pt wargear eliminating 500pts of models with a single 3+?

Talisman of Arthas Moloch is pretty close. It does not make you pick up your horrors, but it certainly is an example of one piece of wargear utterly neutralizing an army (whereas the boltgun only affects one unit to the extreme).

quiestdeus wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

It is totally feasible the model with the special bolter could miss when rolling to hit.

So exactly how many precedents are set for a 10pt wargear eliminating 500pts of models with a single 3+?

Talisman of Arthas Moloch is pretty close. It does not make you pick up your horrors, but it certainly is an example of one piece of wargear utterly neutralizing an army (whereas the boltgun only affects one unit to the extreme).

Pretty close on what planet? 4d6 DTW still leaves 33% failure. A lot different than one hit taking out 10 warlocks without rolling to wound and no saves allowed.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is the exact quote from the rule:

"Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

I don't get it. Taking Eldar as an example, no units have those special rules. The closest example is the Hemlock, but even that is a unit of 1 model, and that model has the rule, not the unit.

You can fire those at seer councils all day - the unit is made up of 10 models which are psykers, but the unit is not a psyker. In addition, perils specifically states it inflicts one wound.

this means that asserting hitting a seer council inflicts an auto-wound with no saves allowed makes two distinct jumps - one, that a unit containing a model with a rule possess that rule itself (which it doesn't), and two, that a perils on a unit is equivalent to a perils on every model in that unit.

These are huge jumps, and I don't see any support. If someone shoots this at my eldar and claim every psyker takes a perils, I'll tell that person the weapon does nothing, and we'll sit there until someone picks up their models and leaves.

The only way to play this in any way remotely fair way to both people is to play it that one perils happens if the unit contains a psyker or is a psyker (ex: GK units, BOP), and one perils = one wound, allocated at random, as required by BOP, or closest to firer.

Gwyidion wrote:
we'll sit there until someone picks up their models and leaves.

That sounds like a great outcome. lol

 hyv3mynd wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
For precedence look how powerful is the psykotropic grenade. So it is completely plausible this is the actual intent.

For precedent? That's like comparing apples and asteroids. Psyko grenades still have 1-no effect as a possibility.

It is totally feasible the model with the special bolter could miss when rolling to hit.

So exactly how many precedents are set for a 10pt wargear eliminating 500pts of models with a single 3+?

Talisman of Arthas Moloch is pretty close. It does not make you pick up your horrors, but it certainly is an example of one piece of wargear utterly neutralizing an army (whereas the boltgun only affects one unit to the extreme).

Pretty close on what planet? 4d6 DTW still leaves 33% failure. A lot different than one hit taking out 10 warlocks without rolling to wound and no saves allowed.

33% failure eh? Like a single shot from a BS4 weapon fails 33% of the time?

Innnnnnnnnteresting.

Why is a 33% failure rate on an item that is always on, reusable, affects multiple units simultaneously, and invalidates plenty of units a-ok, while a one-use item that affects only one unit at a time horrible and outrageous?

quiestdeus wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Pretty close on what planet? 4d6 DTW still leaves 33% failure. A lot different than one hit taking out 10 warlocks without rolling to wound and no saves allowed.

33% failure eh? Like a single shot from a BS4 weapon fails 33% of the time?

Innnnnnnnnteresting.

Why is a 33% failure rate on an item that is always on, reusable, affects multiple units simultaneously, and invalidates plenty of units a-ok, while a one-use item that affects only one unit at a time horrible and outrageous?

Zing!

FYI the Talisman of Arthal Moloc is only 52% effective.



HulkSmash nicely supplied the exact wording of the rule. "Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

The bolt most certainly does work upon the Seer Council as the Warlock Council does possess the Psyker Special Rule for the unit. Perils will effect every Psyker in it, there is no other way for Perils to work without inventing rules. It does not say "a perils", it says "the perils". It will also affect every Psyker IC joined to that Council as pg 39 makes them count as part of the unit for all purposes.

The real question is if it affects units with a Psyker Present or even Multiple Psyker IC, ie Thousand Sons, Thousand Sons, and Screamer Star for Example.

Thousand Sons. Contains on Psyker, the Aspiring Sorcerer? The unit contains a model with the Psyker rule, does it suffer a perils?

Thousand Sons with Attached Chaos Sorcerer. Unit contains two Psykers, does it suffer a perils? If so, do both?

Screamer Council. Unit contains up to four Psykers, does it suffer a perils?

The leading argument against is that the Unit itself does not possess the special rule, psyker, but mere contains models with said special rule. Pg 32 tells us models have special rules, not units. Where a special rule is listed in a unit entry it is merely telling us that every model in that unit has that special rule. It may be easier to think of it as units with special rules, but it is the models with that special rule.

The rules for ICs, pg 39 tells us that an attatched IC counts as part of the unit for all purposes. It also tells us that Special rules are not conferred to the rest of the models in that unit without permission.


So, we either interpret "Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules" as only units with that special rule which would be the Warlock Council and individual Psyker ICs, or as a unit that contains models with those special rules. Since, units do not possess special rules, but the models within do(and weapons), the second is the logical choice as ICs and Psyker Sergeants are part of that unit and that unit contains models with those special rules as Sergeants are by default part of the unit and ICs when joined count "as part of the unit for all rules purposes."


In summary, Units do not possess special rules, but the models within. Since units cannot possess special rules, but references to such mean the models in said unit the only applicable conclusion is that the effect works against any unit containing models with said special rules. To do otherwise is to invent rules.

As to perils, it specifies suffers "the perils the warp", not "a perils" singular, and the only way to resolve the perils on the warp is against every psyker in that unit, unless those models possess a specific special rule which tells us how to handle the effect ie brotherhood of psykers or sorcerers. To do otherwise is to invent new rules.

Given the rules we have, this is how I interpret the ability.