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Made in us
The Hive Mind





dadakkaest wrote:
Yeah I am biased. And so are you I hope.

Against metagame breaking rules like 2++ rerollable saves.

Not when discussing rules. And I don't have a problem with 2++ rerollable saves.

AFAIK in my ebook says the unit takes perils from a condemnor bolt gun. This is the only 6th edition text for this rule.

Psi-shock: Any unit with the Pskyer, Brotherhood of Psykers or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage.


Any unit.

Any unit with the Psyker rule.
Go ahead - name every unit in the game with the Psyker rule. You won't find Screamers on that list.

That's my interpretation of the RAW. Period.

And your interpretation has no basis in actual rules.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





- Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:25:43


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

@dadakkaest: you haven't told me if you've tried updating your codex yet. I know the iPad version is updated, and the BL says they updated their rules.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I got the latest one now.

GW to veteran players with diverse lists: Get fethed.

GW to broken monobuild codxes: Please, more of this.

Games Workshop are garbage. I feel entirely suckered for playing their games for as long as I have. All of my models are going on sale on ebay tomorrow. I'll post the links on dakkadakka. You guys can all go Riptide spam each other.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:29:18


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

dadakkaest wrote:
I got the latest one now.

GW to veteran players: Get fethed.

Games Workshop are garbage. I feel entirely suckered for playing their games for as long as I have. All of my models are going on sale on ebay tomorrow. I'll post the links on dakkadakka. You guys can all go Riptide spam each other.




Easy there. There is another update coming that may fix it. As pointed out in previous posts the Condemnor wasn't going to be enough to overturn Screamerstars or Seercouncil madness on its own anyways.

Sisters won't get REALLY good until we eventually get a proper update with new models and all that. Until then we've just got to play to the best of our ability with what we got (and what we got ain't bad).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I don't think GW knows or understands powergamers and how they work. If they did the Riptide would be a 0-1 choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:30:42


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 ClockworkZion wrote:

the Condemnor wasn't going to be enough to overturn Screamerstars or Seercouncil madness on its own anyways.


Well, that's really the majority of the point for keeping it as it was. It's a minor change in the meta at best, as the things are purely situational. I am seriously upset about it and wrote them a giant nastygram.

They have no time to deal with obviously broken rules, but have time to nerf the rare armies played by a few die hards. This means they do not demand or deserve the benefit of the doubt. They demonstrably detest their core fanbase.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I don't think GW knows or understands powergamers and how they work. If they did the Riptide would be a 0-1 choice.


I completely agree. And would add at this point that GW would be more than happy if people stopped playing their games competitively altogether. It would enable their laziness more and would take them off the hook for their obvious lack of desire to engage in game design, model design, or interaction with fanbase.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:46:30


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

dadakkaest wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

the Condemnor wasn't going to be enough to overturn Screamerstars or Seercouncil madness on its own anyways.


Well, that's really the majority of the point for keeping it as it was. It's a minor change in the meta at best, as the things are purely situational. I am seriously upset about it and wrote them a giant nastygram.

They have no time to deal with obviously broken rules, but have time to nerf the rare armies played by a few die hards. This means they do not demand or deserve the benefit of the doubt.

The rule didn't work in the first place. There is no such thing as a unit with the "Psyker" rule. That's an individual model rule unlike Brotherhood of Psykers which is a rule that affects the whole unit, so we didn't really get nerfed, they just traded us one rule that didn't work for another. It's nothing really to get upset about.

dadakkaest wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also I don't think GW knows or understands powergamers and how they work. If they did the Riptide would be a 0-1 choice.


I completely agree. And would add at this point that GW would be more than happy if people stopped playing their games competitively altogether. It would enable their laziness more and would take them off the hook for their obvious lack of desire to engage in game design, model design, or interaction with fanbase.

GW has made it very clear at the start of 6th that the rules aren't really meant for competitive play, nor are the books balanced for them. They're doing what they think is fun and cool. Those who already play by that mindset are adjusting fine, but the more competitive and hardcore players are not.

I don't chalk it up to laziness (though better rules would make the game better, it's not like it doesn't function as is), more of a lower bar that they set for themselves design wise on how "tight" the game is compared to where we set the bar to where we want it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:50:07


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think I missed the part where they basically accepted that their game isn't worth playing at all because there would be no attempt whatsoever to balance.

Setting the bar so low and demanding prices so high are somewhat contradictory design goals, don't you think?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 04:52:23


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

dadakkaest wrote:
I think I missed the part where they basically accepted that their game isn't worth playing at all because there would be no attempt whatsoever to balance.

Setting the bar so low and demanding prices so high are somewhat contradictory design goals, don't you think?

I think you're missing what I'm saying. The game itself is fine. The problem is more with players who refuse to accept the game as a casual beer and pretzels thing and have to play with the most ball busting lists to have fun. That isn't GW's fault, those players will always exist in every game and will do everything they can to stack odds in their favor with things the creators neither intended or foresaw happening.

The thing is GW can't go in and start restricting stuff without going against their design goal of player freedom. They WANT you to be as free as possible with the system so you can have as much fun as possible, restricting things goes against that because they start taking choice away.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Player freedom = roll your own. Fine. Games Workshop's job is to balance point totals so that players can have a game over an afternoon that comes down to a reasonable margin of victory. They are entirely derelict in that regard and don't care. Every game is a blowout. Armies who aren't in favor tabled on turn 3 or sooner. That's the entire meaning of the term "Metagame."

For the absurd prices we pay to keep up with our favorite hobby this is simply not acceptable. Especially for those of us who started an all metal army years ago and are hoping to enjoy it now. IT's like waiting for a sequel for a blockbuster movie you loved for a decade, and then part 2 is made in India on a shoestring budget and about nothing even remotely related to the original.

I'm sorry man I see where you're coming from, but the real world isn't full of gracious winners. It's full of rules lawyers and sore losers. They ruin the hobby. GW's job is to make life painful for them, not add incentive for people being unfun jerks in a gentleman's game.

Unfortunately that's all they're interested in doing, obviously.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 05:10:54


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

I've been playing Sisters since 2010. The army has not been in favor for a long time and I can't recall a game where I was tabled any sooner than Turn 5. And I can count the number of times I've been tabled total on one hand (it's like 4).

Played well Sisters can be and are effective as an army. The thing is they have to play the mission, tailor for the mission and concern themselves with being able to try and handle the mission as much as possible. Everything you do needs to be to be done with the intent by winning the mission. Very rarely will you really win any other way.

I've started referring to them as my "Dark Souls" army. You don't win by being the biggest, baddest thing in the game, you win by playing smart, and working hard to achieve a goal. And it's damn rewarding when you do.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Well I bought my first canoness model in 2001, prior to that I had IG and CSM armies and they all sat in storage for a decade while 4th edition had the guy with the knife running roughshod over models with 40th millenium firearms and body armor but that's sort of besides the point.

This ruling is the latest evidence that ultimately GW will do absolutely nothing to balance this game, which means I'd rather go play something else. Reliably losing to favored lists that sell more models to new players is not fun.

Lots of painted sisters and Orks headed to Ebay. See the Swap forum. Everyone else can eldar jetbike V. Tau Riptide V. Screamerstar until they're blue in the face. I'm done.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 05:26:11


 
   
Made in jp
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Somewhere in south-central England.

If you want a serious, balanced competitive game, try Field of Glory. It was written for historical tournament play.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in mx
Sister Vastly Superior






 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've been playing Sisters since 2010. The army has not been in favor for a long time and I can't recall a game where I was tabled any sooner than Turn 5. And I can count the number of times I've been tabled total on one hand (it's like 4).

Played well Sisters can be and are effective as an army. The thing is they have to play the mission, tailor for the mission and concern themselves with being able to try and handle the mission as much as possible. Everything you do needs to be to be done with the intent by winning the mission. Very rarely will you really win any other way.

I've started referring to them as my "Dark Souls" army. You don't win by being the biggest, baddest thing in the game, you win by playing smart, and working hard to achieve a goal. And it's damn rewarding when you do.


Just what he said. Sisters of Battle are not meant to table someone as they stand in their current iteration; They need to play the objective and forget about 'killing' the enemy. Get the objectives, hold them and buy time for your sisters. Sometimes you will actually annihilate your buddy, but that is only on rare occasion (assuming both players are playing on the same skill level).

We've only had but a small update that has had a big impact in some areas in the way Sisters were played before but not big enough to put them on par with the rest of the armies. If anything, the army lacks options other armies have... and that damned skyfire. So far Penitent engines are cool looking models... and Repentias are not far off - on your nightstand. Not on the gaming table.

I hope this condemnor boltgun thingie gets fixed and/or faq'ed as soon as possible. As is, it's quite useless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/09 06:56:34


   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

As a fan of fielding Repentia....they are useless as an actual part of your army. A 6+ invul save and no assault vehicle just means they're going going to die to a slight breeze that wafts by because no one is going to intentionally let them hit their lines.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Are you saying you'd not allow someone to use the AS condemnor in a game?

When did I say that? My argument is from a RAW standpoint, not HIWPI view.

So by your logic there is no such thing as a combi flamer, melta or anything else?

Please enlighten me on this. The rules for "combi-weapon" is that you have a primary weapon and a secondary weapon. An AS Condemnor Boltgun is a boltgun and condemnor boltgun. A combi-flamer is a boltgun and a flamer.

When you fire the melta part of a combi metla what is the STR and AP of the shot?

Whatever is listed for the secondary profile, in this case the secondary profile is labeled "Meltagun".

How do you know it is a melta weapon?

Because the profile has the "Melta" special rule, in this example.

Could it be due to the description of the weapon.

No, due to the profile as I've mentioned.

The Stake Crossbow isnt in fluff it is in the Weapon description.


"A Condemnor boltgun follows all the rules for combi-weapons. The primary weapon is a boltgun. The secondary weapon has the following profile:
CONDEMNOR BOLTGUN Range: W Strength: X AP:Y Type: Z"
Where does this mention "stake-crossbow" at all?

Or is what you are saying is that you don't beleive the description of a crossbow armature that fires silver stakes with siguls isn't a stake crossbow?

Again, you are trying to use fluff as rules. This just like the "Drop Pod doors must be open because the codex says the hatches are blown" argument. Unless you are told to use fluff (and GW does use fluff for rules purposes once in a while) then you have no permission to use the fluff as rules.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Happyjew wrote:

Again, you are trying to use fluff as rules. This just like the "Drop Pod doors must be open because the codex says the hatches are blown" argument. Unless you are told to use fluff (and GW does use fluff for rules purposes once in a while) then you have no permission to use the fluff as rules.


Or am I perhaps using the description of the weapon on Page 32 of C: Adepta Sororitus? You know the one that says this;

The condemnor Botlgun is a hightly specialized comib-weapon used by the operative of the Ordo Hereticus and Adepta Sororitas. Combining a boltgun with a ( wait for it...........................) (just a little longer now......................) single-shot crossbow armature, these archaic seeming weapons fire a silver stake........ect......


That reads like a weapon description to me. Let me guess you don't allow the new DEX to ally with anyone either since the BRB says Sisters and this DEX calls them Adepta Sororitas. You know even in a forum dedicated to RAW interpretation occasionally a small dose of common sense is required.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, that's still fluff. Spotted the phrase "stake crossbow" yet?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I could honestly give a rats ass if it said it was built with pink flowers. It is in the weapon description in the DEX. Does it really matter if a few adjectives and adverbs were thrown in for embellishment? You can answer then. Would you allow someone with Adepta to use the condemnor in a game? Also would you allow AS to ally since only sisters are listed in the matrix?

I honestly think they took a mediocre weapon and made it worthless with this change so I'll never pay the points for them.

I guess the difference between us is I use common sense when there is a single item in a DEX with only one description in one spot and only one function in one spot that even thought the verbiage is not 100% the same they are the same item.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/09 12:52:47


 
   
Made in us
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Eye of Terror

You're right Boss - they are being ridiculous. Just ignore them and play. It's not like they can come to where you play to try enforcing their opinions.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ah, so you're not making a rules argument? Then please avoid breaking the tenets further by marking your pasts hywpi, so people don't attempt to debate your opinion.

Some people seem to struggle with separating a rules discussion taking place on a sub forum dedicated to discussing rules and an actual game. Note at no point did I state how I would play it, nor was I asked , instead insults were heaped upon me for pointing out the actual rules.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Would you allow someone with Adepta to use the condemnor in a game? Also would you allow AS to ally since only sisters are listed in the matrix?


As I said before, yes I would allow it in game. Why? Because I know what the intent is (at least in this case). However, that is not going to stop me from telling someone presenting HTWPI as RAW they are wrong.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Luckily for all of us they have now updated the AS Ally rules:

To determine which armies your Adepta Sororitas detachments can ally with, replace the words ‘Sisters of Battle’ with ‘Adepta Sororitas’ on the Allies Matrix on page 113 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook



Of course they did not sort out the cock up with Black Templars Ally rules but hey its a start

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





There is no Black Templar cock up.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

There is - the Ally rules seem to directly contradict everything written in the codex - hence cock up.




I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Mr Morden wrote:
There is - the Ally rules seem to directly contradict everything written in the codex - hence cock up.

Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about this? The only issue I'm familiar with comes from people not reading rules correctly. Even then it's not a direct contradiction.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

rigeld2 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
There is - the Ally rules seem to directly contradict everything written in the codex - hence cock up.

Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about this? The only issue I'm familiar with comes from people not reading rules correctly. Even then it's not a direct contradiction.


Its been done - it went nowhere. The info in the Codex says that the AS and BT are the equivalent of Battle Brothers - the Ally Matrix says the opposite - complete cock up.

back on topic - I'll post again the issues with the Condemor on the GW Digital Facebook page.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Mr Morden wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
There is - the Ally rules seem to directly contradict everything written in the codex - hence cock up.

Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about this? The only issue I'm familiar with comes from people not reading rules correctly. Even then it's not a direct contradiction.


Its been done - it went nowhere. The info in the Codex says that the AS and BT are the equivalent of Battle Brothers - the Ally Matrix says the opposite - complete cock up.

back on topic - I'll post again the issues with the Condemor on the GW Digital Facebook page.

There is another upate coming as soon as it gets past iTunes.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Thats good news - they do at least tend to take notice when you put stuff on their page which is nice

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
 
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