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Can someone explain how it works? Does it wound a single model? Or the whole unit?

Thanks.

It causes perils on the unit, we're then stuck with how to resolve it.

Units don't suffer perils usually do they? It's always models themselves.

Most of the multi-model units with the Psyker or Soceror special rules have a mechanic listed for dealing with Perils, such as Brotherhood of Psykers causing only one model to Peril, or a Psychic Chior where all of the models in the unit Peril. In the end, read the unit rules, then apply the effect.

SJ

Well, except for the two main reasons to take this since they don't have a way to specifically address it. Those two choices being Tzeentch Heralds in Screamer (tzeentch heralds in a horror unit are covered by their rules) units and Warlocks in Seer Councils.

My read is since the unit, not model, takes the perils all psykers in the unit peril. But I also hate the current 2+ re-rollable love fest going on with Daemons and Eldar so I'm hardly objective on it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Well, except for the two main reasons to take this since they don't have a way to specifically address it. Those two choices being Tzeentch Heralds in Screamer (tzeentch heralds in a horror unit are covered by their rules) units and Warlocks in Seer Councils.

My read is since the unit, not model, takes the perils all psykers in the unit peril. But I also hate the current 2+ re-rollable love fest going on with Daemons and Eldar so I'm hardly objective on it.

I agree. Until we are given a way to allocate a perils of the warp within a unit or to delegate a particular psyker affecting effect withing a unit, every psyker would suffer the perils. There are very very few units of multiple psykers that are not brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers etc and they generally are used to break the game. There are rules on how to treat such an occurrence for a unit with brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers, but none such rule exists for individual psykers leaving the default state to be affecting each psyker in the unit.

May be FAQed differently, but it'd be a nice to see the end of the 2+/++ rerollable nightmare. I share that sentiment as well.

What's the actual wording of the effect? Because Codex: Grey Knights has one, too:

"Any psyker hit by a stake crossbow shot suffers the perils of the warp in addition to any other effects"
Which was FAQ'd to
“Any psyker taking an unsaved Wound from a stake crossbow shot[...]”

Which I take to mean a single psyker. Needless to say, it's probably going to get FAQ'd (or maybe the GK one will get better).

Here is the exact quote from the rule:

"Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

So I guess the hair-splitting comes when you have to distinguish if the unit has the psyker rule or the individual models. I could honestly see it going both ways...GW could very well have meant it to destroy units of individual psykers. Or it could be meant to only wound one.

I would personally play it as the latter due to the precedent of the GK codex. Also, from the BRB: "The Psyker immediately suffers 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed" (Perils of the Warp).
The unit suffers perils, and perils is specified as causing 1 wound. So I would treat it as causing a single Perils wound to the unit. However, I'm open to other interpretations/precedents...

Never thought about it that way. If that was the case, how would you allocate the Perils?

Lucarikx

Units with Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (and their attached ICs) has a specific way in which to deal with Perils. It is definitely less clear as to how a unit of IC Psykers (or a unit w/o BoP with multiple ICs attached) would deal with a Perils against the unit. The two potential ways I can see it going is 1) every Psyker takes a Perils or 2) a random Psyker in the unit takes the single Perils.
One Perils that either player gets to allocate seems way under/over-powered, depending on who does the allocating. Random is a good way to fix that, I feel.

The GK Mindstrike missile causes Perils against any Psyker hit by the blast.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is the exact quote from the rule:

"Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

For the case of shooting a unit with an attached Psyker, a possible interpretation would be that the stake would have no effect. The unit itself doesn't have the Psyker rule. Of course, you could carry this to the extreme that even if you scored a precision shot and allocated on the IC it still wouldn't cause a Perils.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Here is the exact quote from the rule:

"Psi-Shock: Any unit with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers, or Pyschic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

Yeesh....how wonderfully vague is GW writing. They need a little more detail.

Appears that the screamerstar won't be affected. It is not a unit with the Psyker special rules even though the Herald is.

I predict this will probably be one of the most contentious items on the tournament scene for the next couple of months since GW don't seem to want to FAQ obvious mistakes/unclear things, and tournament organizers are going to have their hands full with this item and the ire its going to cause, On both sides.


Screamer Star, Seer council, and literally everyone who plays a psyker I.C. once they get to know this gun and the specific wording will instantly say it does nothing since the unit is not a "unit with the psyker special rules"

Everyone who plays sisters and has a fundamental bias towards all of those will argue till they are blue in the face that it kills every I.C. psyker in the squad if it hits. ( This also has dire implications for Tyranids, Grey Knights)

A lot of others will kneejerk and say YAY it negates the screamer and seer council and that's a good thing, but they forget it negates about half the armies psyker support and wreaks two armies that have significant psyker presence on the board.

Some people will try to stopgap that it effects a random psyker in a unit with multiple I.C. psykers.

What you have to come to realize is that Sisters of Battle can comfortably take upwards of 15 of these in a normal list.

Think of the problems that this is going to cause, sisters will literally alpha 3 tyranid MC off the table, by just hitting them, significant GK portions of an army as any attached character get periled off at the same time as the normal brotherhood models. The councils will get periled off with 1-2 hits, but with spam hitting an entire unit a sisters player can alpha both farseers, and the entire unit of warlocks claiming 3 KP, Warlord, and basically taking that list out of tournaments.

You have to actually think about this gun in a tournament setting. Every single Psyker will die to it if it hit a unit and causes perils to the psykers inside. If spammed no psyker including farseers will live though a round of sister shooting.

Even if you have local groups and tournaments compensate for poor wording by saying that it effects 1 random psyker in a unit ( may or may not be RAW or RAI, just used as a stopgap to try to appease both sides) this gun if spammed is going to have a significant effect, it only becomes a list difference and what shoots what when, and how many of them sisters take, i.e. you will have min maxed lists spam 15 and still completely kill screamerstar, Kill all the warlocks and most likely one farseer, Tyranids can just pick up their models, Grey knights lose dread knights, tanks, or entire squads plus any independent characters.


This gun in a sisters army alone will curb stomp 2 competitive army builds, and two entire codexs it will make all I.C. psykers free kill points for your opponents. You will see a ton of people say this is a good thing, until you realize what this actually in practice means for the game, sisters will literally have 1-2 soft counters and no hard counters. With a good general Min Maxing a sisters list necron wraith wing is the only competitive army that will have an even fight, everything else will be on the back foot, even wraithwing will have its hands full as the sisters armies at 1750 can have 29 str 8 ap1 shots while maintaining the comdemnor spam.

If you guys thought things like screamer star, seer council, and tau ignoring cover were bad, wait till sisters with good generals hit, Ignore cover scouting melta guns in numbers, 3+ re-rollable saves on all the unit in combat, some of the hardest alphas in the game with str 8 ap1 spam.

Your replacing a rerollable 2+ with a rerollable 3+ with better shooting and the ability to kill anything with the psyker special rule by hitting. The fact that the gun ignores all saves aside from FNP and Eldar ghost helms (which in a competitive environment wont save farseer's since the spam can hit 6 comdemnor in one turn) is probably the worst call we have seen yet.


A sisters list can comfortably run 17 bolt guns with little to no effectiveness drop in the army.

There is very little way to mitigate this guns impact on the game as written.

jy2's interpretation may be the only way as it will save everything but grey knights and Tyranids

Just don't forget that's a single-shot weapon and only massed in SCS, which can be blown off the table pretty easily. Knowing GW it'll be FAQ'd to be completely useless item once again.

I want to stress what a poster above me said, it is a one use only effect.

Also most psykers have multiple wounds as well. You'd also have to hit a farseer up to 6 times to kill it because of the ghosthelm.

At 1500 a msu sisters list with 5 priests and Jacobus is capable of taking 11 however you'd have to cut priests or special weapons to get more than 3. I'd doubt even at 1850 you'd see more than 10. Even then you'd have to sacrifice taking other combi-weapons that could be more useful for a TAC list. So at 1850 I'd expect only 5-6 bolts to actually hit, that isn't going to hurt nids or gk that much.

However as right now RAW multi-model units aren't even affected by psy-shock, as the unit doesn't have the psyker rule. HIWPI a random psyker (or maybe the closest psyker) in the unit takes a perils wound.

@Tiber

Almost everything you wrote is pure hyperbole. GK's won't be affected badly because Brotherhood of Psykers tells you how to handle it. You'll lose a single model per hit nor matter how the rule is written because the BoP tells you how to handle it.

As for Nids what Nid psyker isn't generally flying? The Doom? Who on landing likely grabbed enough wounds to survive all the Psi-Shock? The Tervigon who has 6 wounds? It won't affect nids much at all.

And I'd like to see an "effective" TAC list with 17 of those bolters. To get 17 the easiest way you're looking at 170pts without a transport twice (so 340) plus another 175pts for the priests. And randomly 20 more points for some combi's. That's not going to make an effective force sorry.

You're whole post comes off as one large whine of not understanding the current state of the game or how armies and rules interact.

As for the rule itself TO's are just going to have to FAQ it for every event. I know one of the upcoming GT's here in MN is going to rule the squad takes the perils. Which to be honest I prefer but I also don't see a problem with a random model getting a perils.

The way i'll suggest playing it to my opponents is this:

If a unit has an attached IC with the Psyker special rule, and is hit by the condemnor, that Psyker suffers a perils. If a unit has more than one Psyker then the controlling player must allocate the perils to one of the Psykers.

"I know one of the upcoming GT's here in MN is going to rule the squad takes the perils"

That is my take on it too. And yes Tiber please chill.

Once again, I go back to the quote on perils only causing one wound per perils result.. Another other relevant GK FAQ is on the blast weapons that cause psi-shock in the GK codex (mindstrike missiles and psyk-out bombs):
Q: How do you work out whether a psyker is affected by the Psi-shock special rule on a mindstrike missile or a psyk-out bom b? (57, 58)
A: Any psyker under the template will be effected by Psi-shock
(The rule in the GK codex being discussed reads: "Any psyker hit by a psyk-out bomb suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.")

Again, it seems by precedent the only way to get multiple perils of the warp on a unit is to be hit multiple times. You could take it a step further and say that the psyker itself must be hit by the weapon (i.e. in front of the unit or a precision shot), which is in line with a "unit with the psyker [special rule]". Units don't have the psyker special rule...but individual models do. Units have brotherhood of psykers. And if a model with the psyker rule is in a non-psyker or brotherhood of psykers unit, you have to target them the way you always have to target characters: whittle down the squad or precision shots.

As a final note, I'll point out that the GK condemner boltgun costs 15 points, and can only be given to an inquisitor.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Tiber

Almost everything you wrote is pure hyperbole. GK's won't be affected badly because Brotherhood of Psykers tells you how to handle it. You'll lose a single model per hit nor matter how the rule is written because the BoP tells you how to handle it.

As for Nids what Nid psyker isn't generally flying? The Doom? Who on landing likely grabbed enough wounds to survive all the Psi-Shock? The Tervigon who has 6 wounds? It won't affect nids much at all.

And I'd like to see an "effective" TAC list with 17 of those bolters. To get 17 the easiest way you're looking at 170pts without a transport twice (so 340) plus another 175pts for the priests. And randomly 20 more points for some combi's. That's not going to make an effective force sorry.

You're whole post comes off as one large whine of not understanding the current state of the game or how armies and rules interact.

As for the rule itself TO's are just going to have to FAQ it for every event. I know one of the upcoming GT's here in MN is going to rule the squad takes the perils. Which to be honest I prefer but I also don't see a problem with a random model getting a perils.

Are you talking about the renegade GT by chance? I may be going if I can work it into my schedule and always look forward to meeting new wargamers

 Hulksmash wrote:

As for the rule itself TO's are just going to have to FAQ it for every event. I know one of the upcoming GT's here in MN is going to rule the squad takes the perils. Which to be honest I prefer but I also don't see a problem with a random model getting a perils.

I think we have similar reads Hulk, but could you elaborate on their ruling (emphasis above mine)?

One perils wound is randomized among the squad; one wound randomized among psykers in the squad; every psyker in the squad suffers a perils wound; every model in the squad suffers a perils wound?

Thanks!



@greyknight - I think we understand what you are saying, but our interpretation as written is that being hit by the Sister's condemnor is the same as if every model in a unit was hit by the mindstrike template. The hit causes 1 perils on each psyker, psychic pilot, or brotherhood of psykers in the unit. Each psyker is not taking a perils for each other psyker, it is still 1 per model, so the precedent stands - and no different from effects that cause each model in the unit to suffer a hit (or a unit to suffer multiple hits) if a single test is passed (e.g., some results on the warp storm table and hallucination come quickly to mind)

I've been going with:
- If the condemnor hits, squad takes 1 perils to the nearest psyker.

It's the least advantageous to me as a AS player but still makes them pretty good. A squad of 4 or 5 can definitely put the hurt down.

@quiestdeus

Every psyker takes a perils. Similar to if the whole squad got hit by a mindstrike.

@Agumybear

Yeah, the Renegade at the end of November. I'll be there. Though I have no idea what I'll be running.

@Pretre

That's logical and least adventagious and if it's FAQ'd that way by TO's I'm cool with it. But I'm also cool with a deterant to some very unfun armies to play against

Yeah, I haven't played against the 2++ rerollables, but don't really want to. If a couple combis will keep them off the table, then I'm more than happy to take them.

Hulksmash wrote:@quiestdeus

Every psyker takes a perils. Similar to if the whole squad got hit by a mindstrike.

@Pretre

That's logical and least adventagious and if it's FAQ'd that way by TO's I'm cool with it. But I'm also cool with a deterant to some very unfun armies to play against

pretre wrote:Yeah, I haven't played against the 2++ rerollables, but don't really want to. If a couple combis will keep them off the table, then I'm more than happy to take them.

Sounds good, that's what I thought but wanted to be super clear. Thanks!.

With respect to the Pretre's comment, I can also see a case if people would prefer to random the perils rather than go by closest model but either way it works

 pretre wrote:
I've been going with:
- If the condemnor hits, squad takes 1 perils to the nearest psyker.

It's the least advantageous to me as a AS player but still makes them pretty good. A squad of 4 or 5 can definitely put the hurt down.

[emphasis mine]

This IMO is the best way to play it from what has been posted of the rule. It sound like a single shot weapon so it makes no sense hitting everyone but to each there own. Further in 6th you allocate to closest, so I don't see why it should be done randomly. Good job pretre

Why not use the Mindstrike missile as an example of how to play it only substitute "every psyker under the template" with "every psyker in the unit" suffers a perils.

Seems that if GW had meant for only one model to suffer a perils then they would have left the entry the way it was and still is in the GK DEX. Right now there are 2 different entries for the same weapon.

The way the TOs have ruled for the Renegade GT sets a very important precedent.

Only for them, really.

No for everyone because as I said it sets a precedence. Also it seems like the most correct interpretation as well.