Condemnor Boltgun?

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**hyv3mynd**

Hulksmash wrote:
Good luck to you sir in your crusade to defend two whole units from this single item.

Just to make this abundantly clear for those assigning intent where there is none.

I don't play the "two whole units" which I'm "crusading to defend". I don't own a single warlock. I don't own a daemon army.

I've spoken my mind about the rules in question. The debate is happening across blogs and forums everywhere and TO's are starting to make their rulings. I'll now know what to expect in my own meta and play accordingly.

**Ricter**

Your own point about "ruining other's fun" not being valid invalidates your argument about ragequitting just as well. You seem to imply people who bring unfun units shouldn't be able to complain about 2++ rerollable saves, yet claim that people with those units may quit over the cb. Have it one way or the other.

**tiber55**

Looks like this on has run it course.

The wording is vauge enough to give a T.O. the ability to take specific lists out of the running if facing sisters. At the same time, it equally alows him to say units don't have the psyker special rule therefore it does nothing.

Personally, if your really that up and arms against seer council and screamer star there is really no reason why you can't rule one randomized or 1 closest model perils, as both ruleings still allow the sisters to kill significant numbers of warlocks/heralds and don't 1-2 shot the unit psykers.

The random or even better the closest model makes the game fun for both players mainly because it forces the sisters to tactically use the condemnors, rather than oh I shot your 700 point unit and hit once killing 400 points of it. It forces the sisters to postion correctly multiple units to focus on the heralds/warlocks that are the ones with the powers needed to make the stars work.

**DarknessEternal**

Even if they only end up doing X Perils wounds for X total hits, they are still ridiculously powerful and there isn't much room to complain if that's how it shakes out.

**Dozer Blades**

I have no sympathy for any army built around the notorious re-rollable 2++ save. A strong counter is needed.

**dadakkaest**

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
We have a tourney coming up and I think I just got the slow answer of the year when I asked how this was going to be ruled.

They are going to allow you to LOS the hit at STR5 AP-.

I have had a couple of people ask how we will be ruling on the Condemnor Boltgun for the Series event on Sunday (and, until GW issues a FAQ on it, into the future), and this is what we've decided:

When a unit that contains one or more models with the Psyker USR is hit by the Condemnor Boltgun, there will always be a "wound" added to the wound pool from that result. If the "to wound" roll for the weapon is successful, that wound will be a S5 AP - wound with the SOB version of "Psi-Shock". If the "to wound" (or armor penetration) roll is unsuccessful, it *still* puts something into the wound pool, but it is *only* the Psi-Shock effect. Wounds then get allocated as normal. If the wound (or the Psi-Shock) gets allocated to a model with the Psyker USR, that model suffers a perils.

Some illustrative examples. In all of these the target unit is a squad of Grey Hunters (GH) with Rune Priest (Psyker) attached. The Rune Priest is the closest model to the firer.

Example #1: Shooter scores one Condemnor wound. If the Rune Priest makes a Look Out Sir! roll, the Condemnor wound is passed to the nearest GH model, who takes a S5 AP- wound (i.e., Armor Save) plus Psi-Shock, which does nothing to the non-Psyker.

Example #2: Condemnor hits but fails to wound. Rune Priest can attempt to LOS! the hit onto a GH. If successful, there is no effect, since the shot didn't cause a wound, only Psi-Shock.

This ruling applies only to weapons with the new version of Psi-Shock that is in the "new" SOB codex. It's not clear whether the new codex authors intended for this change the existing Psi-Shock to be universal or not (e.g., the wave of FAQ updates to harmonize Servo Arms once the new SM Codex landed), so for now we're leaving it confined to the one weapon that has the variant rule.

For anyone that's interested in why we went this direction: It's a really poorly written rule. "Units" do not typically have the "Psyker" special rule. Individiual Models have the Psyker rule, and it is not one of the rules (e.g., Slow and Purposeful) that conveys from a single model to a unit. The GK Condemnor gets around this problem by requiring that an unsaved wound (not just a "hit") occur to trigger Psi-Shock.

They just ruled that the special rule on the CBG does nothing on a 2+. It normally causes a str 5 hit regardless. Since when can you LOS PoTW? Ridiculous nonsense.

This ruling was probably made by people with 2++ save exploiting armies. This rule was obviously added to add balance to the game.

**Elric Greywolf**

dadakkaest wrote:

This ruling was probably made by people with 2++ save exploiting armies. This rule was obviously added to add balance to the game.

This attitude and comment is unhelpful to the discussion. If you want to complain about an overpowered build (9 Wave Serpents, for example), take it to Tactics. They'll help you figure out how to defeat it.

**dadakkaest**

Suffice it to say that regardless of implied motives the RAR says that upon a successful hit perils are suffered. Not wound. This is before wound allocation so this ruling is contradictory to the core rules of the game.

**Dozer Blades**

I don't see how you can LoS a PotW.

**dadakkaest**

Yeah that seems to break the normal flow of resolving shooting entirely. Changes from roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves from closest model, save rerolls, feel no pain, Look out sir.

Apparently Condemnor Boltguns are so powerful that they now resolve shooting roll to hit, look out sir, roll to wound, saves, etc. And no one ruled if the closest model is an independant character, do they get a second LoS at the end?

Really under the current rules you can 2+ LoS a bullet from a Vindicare Assassin...
Wearing 41st century stealth camo.
With BS8.
Sitting the equivalent of several hundred yards away...
At night!

So who knows how this will finally get ruled. I'm pulling for resolve perils according to the rules of the closest model in the squad with the psyker special rule and then resolve wound as normal. That seems like it's not too OP and would still give the Witch Hunters the ability to hunt some witches.

**ClockworkZion**

FAQ doesn't let you LOS the Vindicate anymore.

**Happyjew**

ClockworkZion wrote:
FAQ doesn't let you LOS the Vindicate anymore.

Sure it does. And then the Vindicare still gets to allocate the wound.

**ClockworkZion**

Happyjew wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
FAQ doesn't let you LOS the Vindicate anymore.

Sure it does. And then the Vindicare still gets to allocate the wound.

Thanks for splitting hairs there. The point was more that you can't shuffle that wound off anymore because in the end you'll end up taking it anyways.

**dadakkaest**

I wish I had read that FAQ before My vindicare's wounds in the last apocalypse game I played got reallocated off of some sort of chaos aspiring champion who later in the game forced a toughness test on my seraphim unit with some piece of wargear and killed off half of them despite the chaos cultists losing combat.

Enough about me failing though. Condemnor Boltguns, how do they work?

**war**

Seems to me that if/when they FAQ it this thing will either be feast or famine. Either it will be the envy of every witch hunter in the galaxy... or the sisters will constantly mock the superior for her lack of useful equipment.

Personally, I thought it was kinda nice to see something specifically against psykers that was useful. Kinda in character with the army and yet lacking in the former books.

Guess we'll see.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if we don't get the useful rules, i'll stick with a combi-melta so I can pop 260 point land raiders in one shot instead.

**farrenj**

The digital version of codex Adepta Sororitas was updated. Should resolve the condemnor boltgun questions. It now clearly procs upon hitting an individual psyker instead of a unit.

**Zagman**

farrenj wrote:
The digital version of codex Adepta Sororitas was updated. Should resolve the condemnor boltgun questions. It now clearly procs upon hitting an individual psyker instead of a unit.

Could you please provide the new rule for clarity?

**ClockworkZion**

I just updated my iTunes version and I'm still showing the old rule on all entries with the Condemnor so I don't know what's going on there.

**Zagman**

ClockworkZion wrote:
I just updated my iTunes version and I'm still showing the old rule on all entries with the Condemnor so I don't know what's going on there.

The rule quoted in the other thread seems to be a summary rule and is less clear and certainly doesn't clarify the issue. We will see. Doesn't seem like anyone else is showing the updated rule.

**ClockworkZion**

Zagman wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
I just updated my iTunes version and I'm still showing the old rule on all entries with the Condemnor so I don't know what's going on there.

The rule quoted in the other thread seems to be a summary rule and is less clear and certainly doesn't clarify the issue. We will see. Doesn't seem like anyone else is showing the updated rule.

I saw that post too, but I didn't see it in my book as all the versions of Psi-Shock I could find have the original rule in it.

**teban**

Zagman wrote:
farrenj wrote:
The digital version of codex Adepta Sororitas was updated. Should resolve the condemnor boltgun questions. It now clearly procs upon hitting an individual psyker instead of a unit.

Could you please provide the new rule for clarity?

As per the iBook version:

Any psyker hit by a stake crossbow shot suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

**ClockworkZion**

Not to sound accusatory but has anyone else even confirmed this? I've updated my copy twice and it still shows the same rule that started this thread.

**TheKbob**

I confirm it. IBooks edition, now it's the psyker hit. Stilly have issue of damage prior to wound allocation, but whatever.

Kinda sucks again. 5pts, maybe. 10? Nope.

**ClockworkZion**

TheKbob wrote:
I confirm it. IBooks edition, now it's the psyker hit. Stilly have issue of damage prior to wound allocation, but whatever.

Kinda sucks again. 5pts, maybe. 10? Nope.

Huh. I have no idea what's going on with my version then. This is annoying me a bit now actually.

Well I'm glad I didn't expect it to stay good. That would have been too easy.

**Shandara**

The Epub version wasn't updated. So with 3 versions going around (iBook, Epub and mobi) are we going to have 3 sets of rules? Without a FAQ it seems so..

**torgoch**

You hit units though, not models. Assuming the above quote is verbatim, doesn’t that make the ‘whole seer council dies’ argument stronger?

**JinxDragon**

I disagree as the whole shooting process exists for one simple reason: To generate a wound pool.

That wound pool is then allocated not to the unit as a whole, but one at a time to each individual model that makes up this unit. This allocation is done before said model uses any ability or war-gear to try and negate the wound, making it dead easy for us to conclude which models where hit by potentially lethal shots during said shooting attack. Given that the shooting attack is designed to generate something which affects individual models, and the ease at which we can conclude which models are actually hit, I have to conclude that shooting attacks do in fact hit individual models and not the unit as a whole.

**rigeld2**

No, you hit units. Cite the rule that allows a hit to be on a model.

**tallguynsc**

Besides precision shots (and other similar special rules) hits are done to the unit.

So with this new update, how do you allocate the perils result? If you assign it to the same model that gets wounded by the condemnor, what if the condemnor fails to wound?

**dadakkaest**

teban wrote:

Any psyker hit by a stake crossbow shot suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects.

Good thing my sisters squads aren't taking stake crossbows. Ugh to copy-pasting the 5th edition pre-WD dex stake crossbow rule. Stake Crossbows don't even appear in the new Dex. They were inquisitor only gear way back in the day.

The psi-shock rule hasn't changed in my download and condemnor bolt gun still has the psi-shock RAW AFAIK.

Psychic death stars with 2++ reroll need to go away for good.