Hell turkeys - really that good?

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**Khaine's Wrath**

I have done some point juggling and I have squeezed one in. These things better be as good as you lot say! I have no room for a second in the themed list I have written. Jus so you know it's:

DP, wings, PA, AoBF
Kharn
9 bezerkers, axes, plasma pistol, icon of wrath
10 bezerkers
5 termies, MoK, meltas, chain fist, power fist, axes
Land raider, dirge caster
Land raider, dirge caster
Mauler fiend
Mauler fiend
And finally - Hell turkey, bale flamer.

I know I'm thin on troops, and that's why I think it'll work in this list, because if I can't hold objectives, I can make sure he has nothing left that can!

**g0atsticks**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I have done some point juggling and I have squeezed one in. These things better be as good as you lot say! I have no room for a second in the themed list I have written. Jus so you know it's:

DP, wings, PA, AoBF
Kharn
9 bezerkers, axes, plasma pistol, icon of wrath
10 bezerkers
5 termies, MoK, meltas, chain fist, power fist, axes
Land raider, dirge caster
Land raider, dirge caster
Mauler fiend
Mauler fiend
And finally - Hell turkey, bale flamer.

I know I'm thin on troops, and that's why I think it'll work in this list, because if I can't hold objectives, I can make sure he has nothing left that can!

Oh its good, but you only have 2 troop picks. I'd drop some mauler fiends and add tons of cultist.

**gwarsh41**

The baledrake is pretty awesome. Imagine getting it on turn 2, you fly up the table and an enemy unit just vanishes. Second time I used one I was against orks, whole unit of lootas just went away when the drake came in.

**IHateNids**

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Edit: OH! Speaking of Anti-Aircraft strategy: IF (and I know few people who would need to do this) but IF you know you're about to be harassed by fliers (or FMC?) then take the Cannon and make you're birdy go sky hunting. Essentially, the idea is to keep you're bird hitting and running from as advantageous a position as possible. But first: STRAT: Flier hits the board and you're turkey comes on 2nd (ideally in this case of air superiority) then you chase that bastard down for all he's worth and stay on that six. If it's something like an IG/SM flier that can hover back, you probably don't want to engage so hard unless you're just adamant about losing your Dargon and their flier in the process. That said, here is where "hover" comes into play, especially with Daemon rule and avoiding getting blown out of the sky for taking a breather.

So what you want to do then is after you've chased a flier off the board (and if you're even luckier to roll the Scouring, that makes this strat even funnier), you go park your bird as far back in a corner behind LoS blocking terrain and wait. if there is an objective (per Scouring) then you're Drake is a scoring unit and pissing off people that don't get 18-36 in moves. XD And when those fliers come back in, switch modes, take off and get on that six and start pelting away with extruded white-hot phosphor rounds of Hate and Daemon Fire right into the tail pipes.

Essentially, what you get from a Heldrake in Air Superiority mode is one of the most agile fighters being piloted by Honeybadger.

Thank you.

Thank <insert your choice of god here> that someone other than me believes Hades Drakes can be good. The number of times Ive tried to convince my friend of this.

**GoliothOnline**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I have done some point juggling and I have squeezed one in. These things better be as good as you lot say! I have no room for a second in the themed list I have written. Jus so you know it's:

DP, wings, PA, AoBF
Kharn
9 bezerkers, axes, plasma pistol, icon of wrath
10 bezerkers
5 termies, MoK, meltas, chain fist, power fist, axes
Land raider, dirge caster
Land raider, dirge caster
Mauler fiend
Mauler fiend
And finally - Hell turkey, bale flamer.

I know I'm thin on troops, and that's why I think it'll work in this list, because if I can't hold objectives, I can make sure he has nothing left that can!

Ok ok,
I like that list, but I have 2 things I think you might want to reconsider!

Firstly, the DP has the Axe, which is a nice weapon, but you might like to run the Black Mace on him instead, just in case he gets tar pitted by some silly blob of useless troops. He'll be str 10 anyways and the added AP2 on strike will make whatever he face-smashes die a horrible, HORRIBLE death with the Black Mace in hand.

If you are looking for the points to add that onto the Daemon Prince, simply take out the Plasma Pistol from your Zerker squad accompanying Kharn

**IHateNids**

I also think that it may be worthwhile dropping the Termies for a squad of unmarked Marines with 2 Plasmaguns, to hold objectives. IMHO at any rate.

**TheKbob**

As still being a primarily PA player until I build my Eldar (and then more PA in Iron Hands), Hell Turkeys are the original OP bullcrap that started us on the this downhill trend of single models/units invalidating complete army builds.

When you have a unit that can crack a lite transport and then nuke the creamy center in the same turn that ignores cover and almost all armor (and can even be ID to anything that doesn't benefit from being a Space Marine... Toughness 4)... yea, cram it GW.

The new broken units like O'Vesa, Buffcommander, Gravity Bikers, Thunderfire, Screamerstar, Seercouncil, Wave Serpent... all started with that terrible ruling in the Chaos FAQ.

Only list I will flat out refuse to play on principle is 3 Heldrakes. Unless it's my Draigowing. Then I'm okay.

**zachwho**

agreed, your taking something that is.awful I'm sure. drop whatever it is and take two. if you aren't using double dragon, you aren't playing CSM. lol

**Godless-Mimicry**

On a slightly related note, what is the time limit before somebody opens up the next routine 'is the awesome unit really awesome' thread?

**Khaine's Wrath**

The mace isn't that good I don't think. It's only S10 if I smash attack which means halving his attacks. The axe will be S8 on the charge, with D6+7 attacks at AP2. That'll do me. Similarly, I don't think the weapons affect the strike. The rule states they are ap3 no matter what.

And I don't want to fit another in I don't think. 170 points in reserve is enough for me. I don't want to drop the fiends or the termies, the idea is the two land raiders full with bezerkers and the fiends will nail forward first turn with the DP over head. The termies will deep strike reserve. It's so crazy, it might just work. But the zerkers and the DP will target anything that is troops, and the fiends and LR will target anything which is a n immenenet threat to my troops.

And if they all die, well that's more skulls for the throne!

**PredaKhaine**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
The mace isn't that good I don't think. It's only S10 if I smash attack which means halving his attacks. The axe will be S8 on the charge, with D6+7 attacks at AP2. That'll do me. Similarly, I don't think the weapons affect the strike. The rule states they are ap3 no matter what.

I like the mace myself - mainly because you roll the extra d6 attacks after halving for smash, so you go from 5 attacks, down to three, then roll for up to 9 or so. The smash special rule also means every attack the dp has is AP2 (IIRC)
The remove from play ability is also useful as it helps you get through squads faster. Its anyone within 3" takes a tougness test. Even marines fail a couple a turn - this also ignores eternal warrior.
You also don't lose the ws and the Initiative - although I'm not sure if the Init matters - He's init 9, down to 8 and I can't think of anything I8 so he'll still be hitting before init 7 (where the phoenix lords and Mephiston lurk)

Does dropping to WS8 make it easier for a WS4 guy to hit your demon prince or is it still the same roll as WS9?

**g0atsticks**

yeah, you only halve your unmodified attacks, any extra are put directly on the top of whatever was halved.

**Khaine's Wrath**

You are right, they are all AP2 no matter what. Something I misunderstood. And you do halve the attacks and then add modifiers. But I'm still not massively sold on the black mace. Do people really think it is that much better than the axe? Which is wounding most on 2+ anyways, gains an extra attack on the charge, and will very rarely need the smash attack?! (On a side not its also more fluffy as it's a khornate list)

Plus is doesn't drop his initiative, its his WS and BS thats affected. The WS is a pain, it means marines are hitting on 4's rather than 5's...but I'm hoping most of them are dead before that happens!

**IHateNids**

I would always go for the Black Mace. S8 without smashing, why wouldn't you? and the DP itself removes the biggest flaw with the mace: AP4

**Khaine's Wrath**

The Mace isn't S8 though. Its the princes normal strength. The Axe is +2 strength.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to start a new thread about this, as this is supposed to be a hell turkey thread!

**Unholyllama**

IHateNids wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:

Edit: OH! Speaking of Anti-Aircraft strategy: IF (and I know few people who would need to do this) but IF you know you're about to be harassed by fliers (or FMC?) then take the Cannon and make you're birdy go sky hunting. Essentially, the idea is to keep you're bird hitting and running from as advantageous a position as possible. But first: STRAT: Flier hits the board and you're turkey comes on 2nd (ideally in this case of air superiority) then you chase that bastard down for all he's worth and stay on that six. If it's something like an IG/SM flier that can hover back, you probably don't want to engage so hard unless you're just adamant about losing your Dargon and their flier in the process. That said, here is where "hover" comes into play, especially with Daemon rule and avoiding getting blown out of the sky for taking a breather.

So what you want to do then is after you've chased a flier off the board (and if you're even luckier to roll the Scouring, that makes this strat even funnier), you go park your bird as far back in a corner behind LoS blocking terrain and wait. if there is an objective (per Scouring) then you're Drake is a scoring unit and pissing off people that don't get 18-36 in moves. XD And when those fliers come back in, switch modes, take off and get on that six and start pelting away with extruded white-hot phosphor rounds of Hate and Daemon Fire right into the tail pipes.

Essentially, what you get from a Heldrake in Air Superiority mode is one of the most agile fighters being piloted by Honeybadger.

Thank you.

Thank <insert your choice of god here> that someone other than me believes Hades Drakes can be good. The number of times Ive tried to convince my friend of this.

In my opinion this would work well not only for Air Superiority but also to go against Wave Serpent Spam. 3 Drakes + 2 Forgefiends all with Autocannons have the range and strength to take them out and with daemonforge (and prescienced using a Tzeentch Herald from allies) it would make for a mean volley of fire. Baleflamers are great for addressing cover and power armor; however, the number of shots and power coming from the auto cannons can make for a decent argument too.

**Brometheus**

Unholyllama, you make excellent points sir.

**Unholyllama**

Brometheus wrote:
Unholyllama, you make excellent points sir.

Thanks.

I think this (and the other thread) are examples of how the meta has changed but the CSM mentality may not have to the same degree. For example, when the codex first came out almost a year ago up to the point where Tau came out, we saw a ton of infantry and use of cover. There was practically no vehicles (sans Necrons) and being able to take a lot of anti-infantry that happened to be AP3 was a great answer to this.

However, the game has changed a bit. Tau still only run a Sky Ray or Hammerhead or two but tend to run Riptides and Buff-Commanders. Eldar was introduced with the awesomeness of Seer Council but also Wave Serpent Spam that works well with Fire Prisms.

What the changes introduced in Tau and Eldar have shown is that Range matters while mildly diminishing the importance of non-LOS blocking terrain. The bale flamer is amazing but with a range of ~20" (12+ template), you have to really plan on where you're flying. Hover is less of an option since you have to be within your target's firing range to use your own flamer. Autocannons are higher strength and provide the range needed to address targets without being within their range if you decide to hover.

Like everything in the game there's trade offs. Baleflamer will be the bane of all MEQ that is bound to show up with the new Codex out as well as horde armies; however, the autocannons help address vehicle spam and higher toughness targets from a "safer" range at the expense of fewer hits (more than likely).

**cowmonaut**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:The mace isn't that good I don't think.

The Black Mace positively melts units in the hands of a Daemon Prince. Wounds everything that's not a vehicle on a 2+ and is AP2 thanks to the Fleshbane and Smash USRs. Gives you 2-6 extra attacks due to being a Daemon Weapon. You pretty much are guaranteed to kill a model in close combat. The Cursed special rule for the Black Mace is very powerful:

Bypasses Eternal Warrior if the Toughness test is failed.

Also bypasses Invulnerable Saves ("no save of any kind allowed").

If stuck in a Challenge you can still end up removing enemy models via Toughness test if they are within 3" of your model's base.

If you roll a 1 on your Daemon Weapon roll you will end up removing enemy models via Toughness test if they are within 3" of your model's base. (The Black Mace only has to cause a Wound; doesn't say anything about it causing a Wound to the enemy...)

A Daemon Prince has a rather large base, so that 3" distance from it means even more.

Any Toughness 4 model has a 67% chance of passing the Toughness test. Drops to 50% for Toughness 3. So on the off chance the enemy survives the 7-11 S6 AP2 Fleshbane attacks, you have a 33% chance or better of having the sucker removed from play anyways, and a decent chance to cause some collateral damage on any nearby enemy models.

I think you are underestimating just how good the Black Mace is, especially in comparison to the Axe, and when put on a Daemon Prince.

**Khaine's Wrath**

I've read all the relevant rules again! And I think you're right, I think I have under estimated the mace. Especially as a MC hunter with 2+ to wound!

**juraigamer**

Autocannon helldrakes were what I used until my chaos decided they didn't give a damn about enemy air, but they were great while I used them.

Since CSM have no problem killing anything 3+ or worse with everything in their army, my flying chickens simple vector struck problems like enemy MC and such, then hit the rear armor of vehicles/harrassed all day.

A torrent flamer normally doesn't get more than 3 hits per use against my forces, simply because I know when and how to spread out.

On a note with the black make, on a roll of a 1 the DP loses and wound and goes to WS 1. Axe is safer.

**Khaine's Wrath**

That special rule is because it is a daemon weapon, and they are both daemon weapons!

**chillis**

Don't forget about the fleshbane rule, automatically wounds on a 2+ at ap2, only reason to smash is if the enemy model has more than one wound or is a vehicle. You're more than likely to kill anything you go against in the first turn with his I8. If you make him your warlord and get Hatred Incarnate, even better

**Unholyllama**

With regards to the Black Mace being awesome....rarely have I see people use it without a Daemon Prince since the prince turns into even more of a machine with the mace. Throw in biomancy abilities and wings and you have quite the threat.

However, it's an expensive threat that people see coming and kill off fairly easily with enough fire power.

So, do those of you who like it still find it useful on non-DP characters like Lords?

I agree that to get the most of the Black Mace you would use a Daemon Prince; however, he's REALLY expensive and pretty easy to kill. Is it worth it when other options that may provide a little less damage output for greater resiliency are available?

**Khaine's Wrath**

I think without the AP2 I'm unlikely to take it. Though I can see a lord on a juggernaught enjoying its benefits if designed to be an infantry killer......

I don't think my DP will be killed that quickly, I have 2 + a blood thirster in my new list......

**Unholyllama**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I think without the AP2 I'm unlikely to take it. Though I can see a lord on a juggernaught enjoying its benefits if designed to be an infantry killer......

I don't think my DP will be killed that quickly, I have 2 + a blood thirster in my new list......

How do you make a DP get a 2+ save? I thought Power Armor was the best it could get (so 3+/4++ if Tzeentch marked). Or are you saying you run a true greater daemon blood thirster in your CSM list (which again - how without allies and crossing codexes with wargear?)

**Brometheus**

I think he's saying 2 Dps and 1 BT

**chillis**

Deamon of tzeentch reroll saves of 1; do not get +1 invulnerable save so they have a 3+/5+ save

**Khaine's Wrath**

Brometheus wrote:
I think he's saying 2 Dps and 1 BT

This. Csm primary with a DP with mace. CD allies with a BT and a DP with a lesser reward.

**Unholyllama**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Brometheus wrote:
I think he's saying 2 Dps and 1 BT

This. Csm primary with a DP with mace. CD allies with a BT and a DP with a lesser reward.

Ah. So yes, there's multiple threats but they still don't like AP3 weapons. Numbers DO make things more difficult to address I will concede.