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2013/11/07 17:32:44
Subject: Re:Game #2 of 3 - 2K Competitive - Jy2's Herald-Hammer Daemons vs Mortetvie's Eldau (Completed)
I'm still kicking myself after this game. I had victory within my grasp....and then I just let it slip. What went wrong, at least for me?
1. I think my biggest mistake was to try to go after his reaper-star with my screamer-star. I was initially planning to go after his kroots with them, but then I changed my mind when I saw that my Warlord may be in trouble if I left him unsupported. Should've just left Fatey to his own fate. If I moved my screamer-star back, I stood a great chance of winning the Scouring, which was Primary. Take out his kroots and then I have my 3-pt home objective. I also deny my opponent 1 VP for killing a Fast Attack in the Scouring as well as 2 VP's for Purge (screamers and Herald). Sure, I might have lost my Warlord, but this was probably the safer play.
2. Sacrificing my Herald. Should have just let him stay hidden for Linebreaker.
3. Putting the Grimoire on Fatey instead of my flesh hounds. The smarter play would have been to Grimoire my hounds and probably fly Fatey off the table (or try to fly him behind the LOS-blocking ruins). I know my hounds (and Khorne Herald) definitely would have survived with 3++ instead of just 5++ invuln's to smash at least another unit.
4. My opponent wasn't the only one to have some fickle dice. I was just as much a victim to them as well - Fateweaver and my 2 Tzeentch Heralds shooting at his Misfortuned reaper-star, only to kill just 1 model, only killing 1 shield drone with 8D3 flyby attacks from my screamers, Fatey failing his re-rollable Grimoire test and getting denied when trying to shoot down the wraithguards the 1st time and my Portaglyph not producing any troops in 3 turns. I'd say we both had our share of randomness in this game.
This game also goes to show why I don't think Daemons are a top-tier army. They are very strong, no doubt. However, the element of randomness in a daemon army is what IMO keeps them on the bubble. All you need is just a bad Grimoire roll (even with Fatey there) or just 1 bad Warpstorm table and you could be out of the running for the top spot in a tournament. With Fateweaver in the army, the chances of failing a Grimoire test is 1 in 9. A typical game is 5 turns. That means a daemon player is bound to fail at least 1 Grimoire test in every 2 games on average. That means that in a Grand Tournament of 5-7 games, you're probably going to fail the Grimoire at least 2-3 times and it's even more without Fateweaver (or if Fatey gets killed). In such games, you chances of getting screwed is extremely high. You just can't do that against high-level players playing very strong, tournament lists.
And then there are the games where you don't get the powers that you need. Like in this game - no Invisibility and no Forewarning. Basically, I only have 1 power to protect 1 important unit. That means I am playing largely on a crutch with many points of failure in my army. I can guarantee you that the game probably would have been much, much different if I had gotten even one of those powers. In any case, daemons are strong. If they can get the dice going for them, daemons just may be the strongest army in the game and there is no army they can't beat. However, it is also because of their random nature, they are more prone to bad luck than most other armies. 1 bad dice at the wrong time and that's it - they are out of the running for the top spot. They are very close to being a top-tier army but it is just in their nature that they will self-destruct just when you need them not to the most.
Congrats to Adam for a fine performance. Despite losing both his wraithknight and riptide in 1 turn - a mistake I hope he doesn't repeat in the future - he systematically and methodically played his way back for the win. That's what the great players do. They don't give up even when things are looking grim. Instead, they re-assess their situation and re-strategize what they need to do to get the job done.
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anonymou5 wrote: Dangerous exposing FW like that. Not that he might get assaulted, but that he might get multi assaulted with the Screamers. Daemonic Instability is a good way to take out Invincible Fateweaver.
True. However, I thought there was enough distance between Fatey and the screamer-star, especially after model removal from his shooting. His models just isn't as big or as numerous as my cavalry-based models to pull off a distant multi-charge like that (though it isn't entirely impossible, especially if he rolls high for his 3D6 charge through terrain).
mortetvie wrote: Was a good game. Interestingly, I should have charged fatey and combo charged with reapers and it is likely he would have died to combat res... He was -3 ld from horrify, after all.
Also, killing that wraithguard unit was crazy bad dice on my part an good dice on yours but it was the best move at that point lol.
Was a very close game indeed! As far as my jetbikes go, meh-I moved them and hid them behind a ruins where I thought they would be safe but I guessed wrong :(.
You probably under-estimated the reach of my FMC and jetbikes.
A lot of people would also probably think that I would go after the reaper-star instead.
jathomas2013 wrote: The batreps that go back and forth are always my fav, this one was all over the map! Both sides seemed to have atrocious dice rolls at times but glad to see the Herald-Hammer rampage get stopped
It was bound to happen, especially going against top-level competition and not getting the powers that I needed. Who knows. It might have been worse had my opponent not given me 1st turn or had he not made the mistake of double-charging my puppies with both his WK and riptide.
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Sarigar wrote: Great battle report (I follow mortetvie's blog) and there were two huge things that I took from this:
-Don't get rattled and play to the objectives. Many players would likely go into panic mode leading to bad decisions if they lose both a Wraithknight and Riptide in a single turn. Problem solving your way out of that is very significant.
-Only kiling a few Flesh Hounds from shooting and overwatch fire from Wraithguard with D-Scythes is horribly unlucky. I think the Flesh Hounds were probably the MVP as they essentially outlasted things they should have succumbed to.
Overall, very cool report and definitely one of those where you have to really deconstruct your opponent's army and problem solve every action/reaction. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for reminding me. I'll put a link to his blog in my BR.
Yeah, good players will stay calm even when things aren't going their way. They will re-evaulate the situation and then re-strategize what they need to do. By patient and it may pay off. Who knows, your opponent may start making mistakes later or his luck may change for the worse. Then all you need to do is to capitalize on it. My motto is - it's not over until it's over.
Flesh hounds are definitely a candidate for my MVP this game.
I think that the game really isn't over for anyone unless they get tabled. This game both Jim and I could have pulled out the win depending on circumstances and dice.
Regarding my jetbikes:
Ultimately, when my bikes come in on turn 2 and there isn't a safe place to hide them completely-all you can do is try to put them in a place where your opponent will either be exposed to get to or hard-pressed to get to. I didn't really have a good place to hide them :(.
Regarding Jim's decision to fly the screamer star away to kroot:
This could have gone either way as shooting them was always an option and it is possible they would have died eventually and no guarantee that my kroot would have died with a 2+ cover save in the woods and 4+/5+ FNP which they had from previous tzeentch spells-dumb tzeench rules IMO but meh. Either option was a gamble and I love that you actually initially did move screamers to the kroot but when I said "are you sure you want to leave Fatey to die?" You change your mind-Eldar mind tricks FTW!!!
Also, failing grim at that time was definitely a game changer-it always is and when I play against demons I generally wait until such a moment to pounce on the grinoire's target.
All in all, a lot of good lessons learned as this was my first time playing his kind of army. I think one key thing is not to second guess yourself and stay confident. I second guessed myself when I gave up first turn and Jim second guessed himself when he changed his screamer star plan.
Always play every move with an eye on victory!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/07 19:51:01
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
mortetvie wrote: I think that the game really isn't over for anyone unless they get tabled. This game both Jim and I could have pulled out the win depending on circumstances and dice.
Regarding my jetbikes:
Ultimately, when my bikes come in on turn 2 and there isn't a safe place to hide them completely-all you can do is try to put them in a place where your opponent will either be exposed to get to or hard-pressed to get to. I didn't really have a good place to hide them :(.
Regarding Jim's decision to fly the screamer star away to kroot:
This could have gone either way as shooting them was always an option and it is possible they would have died eventually and no guarantee that my kroot would have died with a 2+ cover save in the woods and 4+/5+ FNP which they had from previous tzeentch spells-dumb tzeench rules IMO but meh. Either option was a gamble and I love that you actually initially did move screamers to the kroot but when I said "are you sure you want to leave Fatey to die?" You change your mind-Eldar mind tricks FTW!!!
Also, failing grim at that time was definitely a game changer-it always is and when I play against demons I generally wait until such a moment to pounce on the grinoire's target.
All in all, a lot of good lessons learned as this was my first time playing his kind of army. I think one key thing is not to second guess yourself and stay confident. I second guessed myself when I gave up first turn and Jim second guessed himself when he changed his screamer star plan.
Always play every move with an eye on victory!
Good comments. I'll use this as your post-game thoughts.
Yeah, going after your kroots with my screamer-star is by no means a guaranteed win. However, I think the results would have been more favorable than to go after your reaper-star. BTW, I wouldn't have shot at them. Instead, I would have just did my flyby attack (against their 6+ armor), while at the same time surrounding them. Thus, if they were to fail morale (assuming the flyby attacks didn't finish them off), then they would be destroyed because they won't be able to run away. Meanwhile, my scoring screamers would be claiming the 3-pt Scouring objective.
But good job on the Eldar mind tricks. You talked me into making my biggest mistake in the game, just as I probably talked you out of making a possible game-changing mistake as well (charging Fateweaver with your wraithknights). Lol. Those space elves, they sure are sneaky with mind control powers!
I would be very interested to see a game between your HH daemons and your Tesla Crons.
Perhaps maybe the next time we meet, I will let you run my necrons and I will play my daemons. I'm finding that playing 2 armies at the same time, one tends to make more mistakes as he now has 2 sets of rules/tricks/combos to remember as well as 2 sets of strategies/tactics. Besides, you're a pretty darn good necron player yourself.
First off let me say I love your batreps. Very well done and easy to draw a lot of insight to the tactics of both armies and how higher level tournament play actually plays out. I've learned a lot reading through them all. Thanks again!
I'd like to ask you a few questions about fateweaver though. I'm putting together a Daemon force using him and some of your tactics of threat overload, boxing in the opponent, and just overall fast CC units.
What are the ideal fateweaver powers? And when rolling for powers which ones are best left to just take the primaris? Obviously you'll get lucky sometimes and get a really good spell to fill a niche against your opponent, but most times you'll get something useless or subpar. It seems you play fateweaver less supporty and more shooty a lot. Also, what spells do you find most effective from the Change discipline for Tzeentch's shooting.
2013/12/04 21:38:21
Subject: Game #2 of 3 - 2K Competitive - Jy2's Herald-Hammer Daemons vs Mortetvie's Eldau (Completed)
For Fatey, I prefer to get powers that can benefit the army - Endurance, Enfeeble, Misfortune, Prescience, Forewarning, Terrify, Puppet Master, Invisbility, Hallucination. Basically, I prefer to play him more as a force-multiplier than as a brute force unit.
Other decent powers that affect himself only - Iron Arm, Precognition, Psychic Shriek and Perfect Timing. These are what I consider the 2nd-tier powers.
The only Primaris worth taking is Prescience and Psychic Shriek.
Tzeentch powers I use is Bolt and Flickering Fire.
Fire Shield on Pyromancy is pretty good. Also, it is situationally useful to get some of the pyromancy powers that ignore cover - the small blast actually won me a game by allowing me to dig out a unit of Kroot.
I usually dismiss Pyromancy as a power I'd probably never use, but I actually used it once. My opponent happened to have his troops all clumped up and I just flamed them with my template power. Of course, this was after I failed to cast Flickering Fire on them. Lol.
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