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That's interesting to read Mr Morden! Seems like there is a lot of variety there..

I gotta be honest, I'm not too eager to sign up for this roller coaster again.

Come on man, it's £75 for a starter set, they are hardly asking for your first-born

I have somewhat more confidence in this now that Warlord are involved. They seem like a pretty professionally run outfit.

Warlord has been around for quite some time now, plus it is run by folks who are passionate about what they do.

While I was skeptical about this partnership at first, fearing for the well being of Warlord, I should've known that they wouldn't be doing this unless they knew it wouldn't cost them their company.


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Also, Warlord has free shipping, this starter included!

 chris_valera wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
It's a skirmish game. Plastic just isn't feasible on this scale with such a small market.

That's a s t excuse. Necromunda had plastic figures GoMC1 had plastic figures. They could easily have knocked up a sprue of the basic two starter gangs, or kickstartered it. In fact they already had plastic gangers from the previous game. Making plastic forces would have dropped down the cost of the box set considerably. As it is, it's like $100 for 18 metal figures. That's woeful value.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I agree that plastic can certainly be produced for skirmish games. However, if the basis of the complaint is the price rather than the material, you will find that most other sci fi metals are more expensive than these Judge Dredd figures. Further, there are plenty of plastics that cost more. Take a look at Wyrds new plastics. They cost more than these metals.

In terms of the price of the starter, it includes a full hardback rulebook.

He just needs to complain about something, it's his schtick.

 spaceelf wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
It's a skirmish game. Plastic just isn't feasible on this scale with such a small market.

That's a s t excuse. Necromunda had plastic figures GoMC1 had plastic figures. They could easily have knocked up a sprue of the basic two starter gangs, or kickstartered it. In fact they already had plastic gangers from the previous game. Making plastic forces would have dropped down the cost of the box set considerably. As it is, it's like $100 for 18 metal figures. That's woeful value.
--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I agree that plastic can certainly be produced for skirmish games. However, if the basis of the complaint is the price rather than the material, you will find that most other sci fi metals are more expensive than these Judge Dredd figures. Further, there are plenty of plastics that cost more. Take a look at Wyrds new plastics. They cost more than these metals.

In terms of the price of the starter, it includes a full hardback rulebook.

To be fair though, Wyrd's plastics do *not* look as if they were pulled right out of the eighties.

I hope that's not a criticism aimed at Mr Dredd himself?

 Pacific wrote:
That's interesting to read Mr Morden! Seems like there is a lot of variety there..

I gotta be honest, I'm not too eager to sign up for this roller coaster again.

Come on man, it's £75 for a starter set, they are hardly asking for your first-born

£75 for 18 rather average metal miniatures. Yes, it includes a large size rulebook, but knowing Mongoose you can get them in a year off ebay for peanuts when Mongoose abandons the game wholesale in favor of hyping the next big thing to sucker gamers out of their hard-earned money.

 BrookM wrote:
He just needs to complain about something, it's his schtick.

Very amusing. I actually just orderd a Judge Dredd Indyclix figure off ebay, and I just got back from the game store, trying to buy a Werewolf in Bones plastic. Sadly they didn't have any except the pre-painted version, which is just drybrushed dark grey with some minor details picked out., and not worth the extra money

See, some of us are picky about what we spend our money on...

I ended up getting the Lysette Elf Mage figure in Bones plastic, the new GW technical "blood" paint, and some old OOP armorcast fanzines, and an OOP Mage Knight Metal figure.

I'll probably get those super-discounted GoMC1 gang figures from Troll and Toad that have been on steep discount for the past year or so.

It's not complaining, like a lot of people, I'm really hesitant about giving Mongoose any more of my money.

They never seem to learn.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 Surtur wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:
S t, I got burned so hard on Starship Troopers, but this looks very nice. The figs are metal though, and you don't get a ton for your money. Very telling that Mongoose couldn't be arsed to spring for plastic models.

Still... I'm a sucker for LE figures...

It would be cool if it came with a free comic or something, for those that aren't too up on what Judge Dredd is.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

It's a skirmish game. Plastic just isn't feasible on this scale with such a small market.

I didn't see this, but there is more to the game then just the skirmish level.

They have tanks, vehicles, mass army rules, and assorted units from the various... stories from 2000AD. The rulebook has the scenarios for various situations from the comics.

I'm a little partial to the Pat wagons, but theres supposed to be a Manta tank coming out somewhere along the line.

One of the more interesting of the games units was the East Meg Invasion troops/ units. Alongside the zombie horde, I think they are some fun digs back into the pre-80's commie paranoia.

the kickstarter was supposed to have funded the game, as it evolved into what Warlord has on thier hands now.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/judge-dredd-miniatures-game-block-war


IIRC, there was some free downloads of the works in pri=ogress over here at Mongoose

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/

 chris_valera wrote:

That's a s t excuse. Necromunda had plastic figures GoMC1 had plastic figures.

Quite gakky ones, in both cases. I do have 240 of the GoMC1 gangers. Though I use them as civilians.

 chris_valera wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Matt had mentioned the possibility of multipart plastics for Apocalypse War on the Mongoose forums at some point.

I'll be honest, Mongoose says a lot of things, and their track record on stuff is sketchy at best. Others would say even worse about them. Take a trip through TMP sometime.

I was Mongoose Infantry for several years, ran dozens of demos for GoMC-1 and Starship Troopers and tournaments for Starship Troopers. I'm fairly intimate with Mongoose.

 chris_valera wrote:

Currently their MO seems to be to acquire a license, hype it up as being the second coming of gaming, fart out a ton of shoddy product, flog it all before the suckers get wise to it, and then drop it completely when the license goes tits up.

Perhaps, but they've had the Dredd license for a decade and the JDMG is quite excellent. Placing the game into Warlord's far superior manufacturing and distribution chain speaks volumes to Mongoose's commitment to Dredd. You may be right about some things, but just not about this.


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 Grot 6 wrote:

One of the more interesting of the games units was the East Meg Invasion troops/ units. Alongside the zombie horde, I think they are some fun digs back into the pre-80's commie paranoia.

IIRC, there was some free downloads of the works in pri=ogress over here at Mongoose

The Rogue Trooper rules, which use a variation of Starship Troopers/Battlefield Evolution system, has the full rules and army lists for fighting the Apocalypse War. I specifically bought about 80 Sovs, 30 Citi-def and 50 Judges and a half dozen Lawmasters to fight it out.

The JDMG was a public beta for years and went through several community-driven playtests before winding up in it's final form in the hardback Warlord Games-produced book.

 chris_valera wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
It's a skirmish game. Plastic just isn't feasible on this scale with such a small market.

That's a s t excuse. Necromunda had plastic figures GoMC1 had plastic figures. They could easily have knocked up a sprue of the basic two starter gangs, or kickstartered it. In fact they already had plastic gangers from the previous game. Making plastic forces would have dropped down the cost of the box set considerably. As it is, it's like $100 for 18 metal figures. That's woeful value.

What did necromunda have? The mordhiem plastic figures got rolled into their mainlines so their costs got reduced. JD doesn't have the same opportunities.

The plastics from before were astronomically bad. Poor material, bad poses. And don't you start going on me about bad pricing and mention GW in the same breath. Mordhiem and Necromunda boxes were $45 for about 8-9 metal models, a finecast model is going to run you around $20 and the individual model price of JD winds up being around $5.10 a pop (if you take the rules' value at $20). That means it's virtually the same per model of necromunda and mordhiem and cheaper than the current offers GW is giving. Even infinity isn't that cheap per model. Now, I'll admit it's not as nice as Infinity models and it is a bit pricey for a starter I'll grant that, but not many starters come with full sized rulebooks.

In fairness, before anyone gives me any more stick, I did go looking fora werwolf figure today. It's just that the Mongoose figure is woeful, so I was trying to find one in the old Mage Knight range, or the Reaper Bones range. I can sculpt on a bionic eye and add some Ork shulder pads and make him techy-looking. I also bought some old Judge Dredd Indyclix figures off ebay. So I'm not 100% opposed to this new game, I just don't feel like signing up for this roller coaster all over again.

That being said...

 judgedoug wrote:
Quite gakky ones, in both cases. I do have 240 of the GoMC1 gangers. Though I use them as civilians.

I must ask; if you're a hobby rep, why do you trash the old figures? And if they're so terrible, are they unpainted? I'll buy them off you for a reasonable price.

 judgedoug wrote:
I was Mongoose Infantry for several years, ran dozens of demos for GoMC-1 and Starship Troopers and tournaments for Starship Troopers. I'm fairly intimate with Mongoose.

I feel quite sorry for you, having been an Outrider myself. I can't imagine what it must be like to defend such a company. Ditching B5, Dropping Mighty Empires entirely, poor proofreading on Conan and the various other RPG books, the editing problems and a lack of quality control on most of the RPG books, The geerally poor quality and subsequent dropping of Armageddon 2089 ( a book series that really isn't compatible with other d20 products, despite claims to the contrary) screwing up SST, screwing up ACTA:SF so royally (that whole resin/metal debacle) having to defends them as ADB takes the license back because of all the screw-ups...

Just how many mini-games did Mongoose start and drop?

Starting and dropping Runequest and Glorantha? Mighty Empires? SST? B5? Conan? Slaine?

What must it be like to have to defend all this?

At least being an Outrider, I only had to deal with the price whiners, no-one ever questioned the quality of what GW put out.

 Surtur wrote:
What did necromunda have?

Plastic Orlocks and Goliaths, the two main gangs, plus the plastic bulkheads, which now sell for crazy money on ebay.

 Surtur wrote:
The mordhiem plastic figures got rolled into their mainlines so their costs got reduced. JD doesn't have the same opportunities.

They probably planned to integrate the Mordheim figures into the main range, but GoMC1 had plastic gangers, so you can't say they don't have the same opportunities.

 Surtur wrote:
The plastics from before were astronomically bad. Poor material, bad poses.

So, in other words, Mongoose finds new and innovative way to f k up a sure thing, as they did with SST, ACTA Star Fleet, Mighty Empires, B5, and so on...

 Surtur wrote:
And don't you start going on me about bad pricing and mention GW in the same breath. Mordhiem and Necromunda boxes were $45 for about 8-9 metal models,

About what Mongoose charges today, and Mordheim figures still sell for MSRP or more on ebay.

 Surtur wrote:
a finecast model is going to run you around $20 and the individual model price of JD winds up being around $5.10 a pop (if you take the rules' value at $20). That means it's virtually the same per model of necromunda and mordhiem and cheaper than the current offers GW is giving.

Finecast is not required, it is an "add-on" for playing Warhamer proper. And as we're finding out, they're planning on doing away with it entirely based on poor feedback. When has Mongoosse ever cared about feedback?

Counterpoint; the skaven commander from Island of Blood sells for nothing on ebay, the skaven units sell for nothing as well. You could kit out the start of a Mordheim warband using those figures, or the skaven figures from Advanced Heroquest, which sell for super-cheeap as well, since they don't rank up.

 Surtur wrote:
Even infinity isn't that cheap per model. Now, I'll admit it's not as nice as Infinity models and it is a bit pricey for a starter I'll grant that,

Infinity models have stunning detail, although I do with they were available in plastic, especially for the TAG and various "big" models.

 Surtur wrote:
but not many starters come with full sized rulebooks.

The 40K3 starter did.

They stopped doing it because of people like me, who would go to cons and buy the $80 starter on discount for $50 or so, then flip the rulebook for $30, getting all the models for almost nothing.

Mongoose has the exact opposite problem, the starter isn't worth getting because we know from painful experience they won't support the game, and will likely drop it or screw it up after a year, and those full-size rulebooks will flood ebay and be worth close to nothing.

You say GW costs more, but Mordheim rulebooks and Mordheim and Necromunda figures still hold their value on ebay, but G0MC1 and SST rulebooks sell for very little. Troll and Toad blowing out all the old GoMC1 ganger boxes for $4.99 each speaks volumes about Mongoose.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Erm... anyway, moving on..

Has anyone had a look at the rulebook yet and would care to comment? Cover art looks great, does it have much in the way of artwork or other fan-service within it? What is the layout of the book like, book size etc.?

Regarding the size:




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Also: http://www.warlordgames.com/40909/warlords-judge-dredd-campaign/

Warlord's own in-studio Dredd campaign, well worth following.


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Finally, some page spreads can be found here: http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/judge-dredd/products/judge-dredd-rulebook

That's absolutely perfect, exactly what I wanted to see - thanks for that!

This game has now been 100% sold to me the moment I saw that 'fattie stampede' has made it into the rulebook

If it has a mini, it is in the book.

Though all we need now is a new mini for Gestapo Bob Harris, who is nothing but a drokking punk.

I've been into Dredd since the early 80s, and I've enjoyed what Mongoose have done with the licence, both in RPG and wargame form. I'll pick up the book over Christmas and it looks to be a good, quality product.

I'm gonna be honest about the miniatures: they are abysmal. A complete and utter shambolic failure. I've pored over the entire range, and there isn't a single model I don't utterly loathe. Every one of them is a sick mockery of miniature design. If it was 1983, I'd be laughing at these monstrosities as a noble but incredibly poor attempt. But it's 2013 and the industry has come a long, long way - but these, these are a throwback to the very worst rudimentary attempts at fantasy figure design of the 1970s. The proportions are horrendous. The poses are so bad they'd make Gary Morley blush. And the prices are mind boggling.

Sorry Matt. I respect you and your company, and I love your fluff and so forth on your 2000AD licences. But these miniatures are the worst in the industry.

Damn. I haven't seen a review that scathing since Mantic brought out their "dragon riders" with those horrendous seahorse-looking abominations.

I saw a load of these miniatures a while ago at a show, and while I kind of understand where you are coming from Caliginous, I think you are perhaps being a little too harsh!

Firstly, think you are correct about the age of the miniatures. I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly certain a lot of these are miniatures that I saw 12-15 years ago; they are not new sculpts. You've said 70's (again, possibly being a bit OTT! ), but yes the sculpting style reminds me of a lot of the other stuff coming out late 80's and 90's - like some of the old Ral Partha, or even Citadel for that matter.

With that in mind, I will say that the bar has been raised considerably in the last decade. Some of the stuff coming out at the moment, from the likes of Corvus Belli, Mearce, Andrea Miniatures, Mcvey etc is absolutely mind blowing in terms of the amount of detail that can be squeezed onto a 28mm miniature - honestly, it has almost got to the point where you have to say 'how much'? Really I think the standard is so good these days, and I think a lot of people viewing those miniatures online don't realise exactly how detailed they are when you see them in person - these days I start to get eye-strain in preperation when I open an Infinity blister, and although I laughed at a friend who managed to accidentally cut the hands off one of his miniatures (although I did sympathise also!), I can completely understand how it happened.

So, I think if one is to acknowledge that there is a pinnicle in terms of sculpture design and intricacy, at the same time does that need to be reached every time you want to place some miniatures on the tabletop and play a game? Especially when you have a fun set of rules and an evocative background? Really, I think the saying "looks fine on the tabletop" applies here - I can guarantee that for most people buying and playing with these miniatures they will look perfectly fine.

Someone can buy this game - appreciate who is Dredd, the gangers, fattie with a belly wheel and the mean machine gang or whatever. The sculpts are good enough that the imagination-transfer can take place, and suck you into the game.

Or.. maybe I just have lower standards! I don't know, I've seen a lot of these in person.. away from the modern digital camera that blows everything into maximum res on your computer screen, then they are perfectly serviceable. I would even call it 'characterful'.

Really? You're even going to keep trying to excuse these monstrosities? Damn, that game ought to be really good - it's not as if anyone with functioning vision would buy this for the minis.

...and say what you will of the drakon riders but even those are leagues ahead of this utter crap.

Now I have to go see these horrific abortions of miniatures for myself. Those guys on the first page just look like lackluster 90s metals, my eyes didnt start bleeding yet

I'd link to some of the newer minis done for the KS, but the blown up pics shown on site are not exactly flattering, nor of a high quality..

**Some** of the new KS stuff was actually pretty ok. Shame they didn't think to put any of those in a starter box set, you know, the one product which might lure new, casual customers...

I do understand where you are coming from Pacific, but for me there's no halfway with miniatures. I spend too much time and money on this hobby that I simply refuse to purchase anything I'm not 100% happy with the look of. It has meant that, especially when I used to play the 40kays, my posterior is handed to me regularly but such is life. I have to be satisfied with the miniature, otherwise I'm not going to paint it, much less prep it for painting. The minis spend so much time in my hands - in cleaning and building, to painting and gaming, that I have to be in love with them from the outset or I'll never pick them up in the first place. I'm one of those gamers that really doesn't care what happens on the gaming table. The single most emphatically important thing to me is that I'm proud of my army or warband when it hits the table. I'm a total miniature fetish-nerd. I just love looking at painted miniatures. It's a problem

Now standards, as you say, have changed. And there are companies out there doing some amazingly detailed stuff. But detail does not necessarily equate to beautiful. Take Artizan for example, I have serious man-love for their US paras, but they're very simple figures. However they are clean and bold and have a strong impact. They're a joy to paint. Take some of GW's big plastic kits conversely. It's a seriously insane amount of detail and the modelling options are fantastic but I often cannot tell what I am supposed to be looking at half the time.

I honestly cannot remember hating a series of models or being so agonisingly disappointed in a series of models since...maybe Leading Edge's Colonial Marines? But they were a product of their time. These models live in a world that has standards that they must be judged against, and they fail miserably. I've said what I really think above so I won't reiterate.

I'll leave you with Exhibit A, the dark judges. Death, Mortis and Fear all look like they are drunk and are embarrassing their relatives on the dance floor at their nephew's wedding. I think, out of all the models in this range of garbage, Mortis us the model I despise the most. It's breathtaking in its awfulness.

I'm probably biased, having spent the last year pretty much only painting the figures I got from the JD kickstarter. I've had mixed views on the sculpts, some are great, some I'm not that taken by - for me it's a shame that the Judges are the faction that are the most mixed in sculpt quality, and I really wouldn't say that Mongoose have picked the best ones to go in the Starter Box - the punks on the other had are lovely figures, but I don't think they are done favours by the paint job in these pics.

I'd disagree on the Dark Judges asessment, overall I was disappointed by them, but Mortis & Fire are pretty decent in my eyes - Mortis always had that sort of 'curled up' stance - Death and Fear look too much like Marionettes to me though.

Anyway, for a different overview of much of the range, a lot of the old and new releases are in my Showcase thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/534212.page

I'll leave you with Exhibit A, the dark judges. Death, Mortis and Fear all look like they are drunk and are embarrassing their relatives on the dance floor at their nephew's wedding.

That bit did really make me laugh out loud

 chris_valera wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Quite gakky ones, in both cases. I do have 240 of the GoMC1 gangers. Though I use them as civilians.

I must ask; if you're a hobby rep, why do you trash the old figures? And if they're so terrible, are they unpainted? I'll buy them off you for a reasonable price.

What? The old GoMC-1 figures are absolutely terrible; probably the worst plastics ever made. Should I be praising them or something?
And no way, I got them for $1 per box . No matter how gak they are, two bright colors and flesh on the face and hands and it's an instant MC-1 civvie.

 chris_valera wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
I was Mongoose Infantry for several years, ran dozens of demos for GoMC-1 and Starship Troopers and tournaments for Starship Troopers. I'm fairly intimate with Mongoose.

I feel quite sorry for you, having been an Outrider myself. I can't imagine what it must be like to defend such a company.

What must it be like to have to defend all this?

At least being an Outrider, I only had to deal with the price whiners, no-one ever questioned the quality of what GW put out.

Why would I have to defend anything? I demo'ed SST and GoMC-1 and ran tournaments. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. If people had questions about product or rules about those games then I answered them. They could have whatever opinion about whatever they wanted.

I find it really, really hard to believe that you never heard anyone question GW's quality when you were an Outrider.

 chris_valera wrote:

Mongoose has the exact opposite problem, the starter isn't worth getting because we know from painful experience they won't support the game, and will likely drop it or screw it up after a year, and those full-size rulebooks will flood ebay and be worth close to nothing.

Perhaps, but they've had the Dredd license for a decade and the JDMG is quite excellent. Placing the game into Warlord's far superior manufacturing and distribution chain speaks volumes to Mongoose's commitment to Dredd. You may be right about some things, but just not about this.



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Caliginous wrote:

I'm gonna be honest about the miniatures: they are abysmal. A complete and utter shambolic failure. I've pored over the entire range, and there isn't a single model I don't utterly loathe. Every one of them is a sick mockery of miniature design. If it was 1983, I'd be laughing at these monstrosities as a noble but incredibly poor attempt.

Absolutely some of the range is kinda mediocre, but the Citi-def, Sovs, Apes, Fatties, and I'd say... half, to most, of the Justice Department, the Angel gang, and many more, are excellent models.

But, your opinion is wrong. Sorry. I have figs from 1983. Here's a perfect example of how wrong you are.





Please explain to me, in as much detail as you can, how the top miniature is a complete and utter shambolic failure and how it is the same quality as a figure from 1983 (the bottom figure).

Ah, Judge Clancy, fething ace! What was the name of that other guy in the dress again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I really want a squad of these guys:

[/URL]

Judge Glass

All we need now is a mini of deputy chief judge Fish!

Caliginous wrote:
I'm gonna be honest about the miniatures: they are abysmal. A complete and utter shambolic failure. I've pored over the entire range, and there isn't a single model I don't utterly loathe. Every one of them is a sick mockery of miniature design. If it was 1983, I'd be laughing at these monstrosities as a noble but incredibly poor attempt. But it's 2013 and the industry has come a long, long way - but these, these are a throwback to the very worst rudimentary attempts at fantasy figure design of the 1970s. The proportions are horrendous. The poses are so bad they'd make Gary Morley blush. And the prices are mind boggling.

Sorry Matt. I respect you and your company, and I love your fluff and so forth on your 2000AD licences. But these miniatures are the worst in the industry.

In fairness, I don't agree with this guy. They're average figures. Many look like figures made in the late 90s. It's obvious there's some catching up to do, but I don't have the hate that this guy does. I will be using the dredd from heroclix, and maybe the evil villain judges from Heroclix as well, although I think the supposedly terrible dark judge figures are okay. I'll be using a werewolf from Reaper's "Bones" line. I'll be using the super-cheap GoMC1 figures, bad quality or no, as well as the EM-4 gangers.

This is really where Mongoose goes wrong; so many other companies make products that are worth your time, and at a cheaper price than what Mongoose is offering.

Those metal figures look like they're out of the 90's and that just doesn't cut it with people any more. The industry has moved on.

 judgedoug wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Quite gakky ones, in both cases. I do have 240 of the GoMC1 gangers. Though I use them as civilians.

I must ask; if you're a hobby rep, why do you trash the old figures? And if they're so terrible, are they unpainted? I'll buy them off you for a reasonable price.

What? The old GoMC-1 figures are absolutely terrible; probably the worst plastics ever made. Should I be praising them or something?

I don't know, should you? Aren't you the company rep? o_O

 judgedoug wrote:
And no way, I got them for $1 per box . No matter how gak they are, two bright colors and flesh on the face and hands and it's an instant MC-1 civvie.

I'm just saying, if you have them so much, if you have any on sprue, I'll take them off your hands for you.

 judgedoug wrote:
I find it really, really hard to believe that you never heard anyone question GW's quality when you were an Outrider.

Believe it. And this is coming from the guy who reps the company that gakked the release of the Star Fleet minis, had to rerelease them in a different material, and still gakked it up so badly ADB yanked the license back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I really want a squad of these guys: