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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ABG isn't a normal IG list. 7 MCs? So five are Tervigons and 2 Hive Tyrants (not even flying). I'll do some number crunching for you, against my armored battlegroup:

I know it's not. It has significantly more guns that can wound my MCs. I'm not scared of las-guns.

That's 38 wounds. My armored battlegroup puts out 10 main-gun rounds a turn from its tanks. That means it would take me four turns if every shot hit and wounded with no save allowed to kill just your MCs. By turn 4, you'll be in CC, so some tanks will be dead. If you kill, say, 3 tanks on or by turn 4 (a ridiculously small number if you're just walking across the board and assaulting), then it would take all five turns in a five turn game just to kill your MCs.

I would feel pretty helpless in that situation without Beast Hunter shells.

And with Beast Hunter shells you essentially table me in 2.5 turns. Yeah, that's the right way to go - no prob bob.
There's no way for there to be a middle ground.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ABG isn't a normal IG list. 7 MCs? So five are Tervigons and 2 Hive Tyrants (not even flying). I'll do some number crunching for you, against my armored battlegroup:

I know it's not. It has significantly more guns that can wound my MCs. I'm not scared of las-guns.

That's 38 wounds. My armored battlegroup puts out 10 main-gun rounds a turn from its tanks. That means it would take me four turns if every shot hit and wounded with no save allowed to kill just your MCs. By turn 4, you'll be in CC, so some tanks will be dead. If you kill, say, 3 tanks on or by turn 4 (a ridiculously small number if you're just walking across the board and assaulting), then it would take all five turns in a five turn game just to kill your MCs.

I would feel pretty helpless in that situation without Beast Hunter shells.

And with Beast Hunter shells you essentially table me in 2.5 turns. Yeah, that's the right way to go - no prob bob.
There's no way for there to be a middle ground.

Only if they hit and wound and you fail your save.

Honestly the only thing I see the Riptide doing is help kill competitive 40k as a thing. And honestly I don't mind that. Competitive play has long been holding back the more creative ways to approach this game and pushing people to build carbon copy lists "so they can compete".

Just make the RT a jump walker type so it at least makes sense. I mean, the bloody engine itself can cause a wound to the RT but you can never penetrate it's armour?

Sounds like Tau are invincible no? From a fluff standpoint you butts!

Man, I want some beast hunter shells! Where do I get some of those? How much do they cost?

 ultimentra wrote:
Man, I want some beast hunter shells! Where do I get some of those? How much do they cost?

They're a 15 point upgrade for a Vanquisher tank that is chosen as the HQ choice of an Armored Battlegroup.

I would say its a big factor in the decline of the game. When you build a list you often try to cover every base. Dealing with MCs in one thing you have to cover, but 90% of what you use to kill MCs is not effective vs riptides. Massed S6-8 isnt effective as its not AP2 and the 2+ is twice as good as the 3+ save. for the same reason, poison isnt effective. Lascannons arent effective as they have a low rate of fire and the inv/ruins block a lot of it. Many of the other solutions require you to be close, and with almost every other MC thats not a problem, but the riptide is both jump (with rules to make it jump even further) and is a shooter. This is compounding problems until you physically CANT build an army that is effective vs both riptides and other targets while not spamming one thing. Riptides are a large reason i dont go to tournaments anymore, so yes, i would say its a big part of why 40k isnt as fun as it used to be. I can deal with serpent spam, as the firepower is low if they want survivability. I can deal with screamerstar as guard/eldar are the masters of loading wounds on targets, especially with access to cheap BB psykers now. My generic lists can fight these. I cant fight riptides.

Hitting is likely (4+ and you can twin link them, right?)
Wounding is likely (Str9 iirc?)
Save? You mean the cover save that'll slow down 5/7 of my MCs? Because it's AP2 right?

And that's ignoring the other 8 main guns. And any additional guns.
Are you counting Chimeras in that?

rigeld2 wrote:
Hitting is likely (4+ and you can twin link them, right?)
Wounding is likely (Str9 iirc?)
Save? You mean the cover save that'll slow down 5/7 of my MCs? Because it's AP2 right?

And that's ignoring the other 8 main guns. And any additional guns.
Are you counting Chimeras in that?

It's a Blast weapon, so it hits better than 4+ and can be twin linked.

It's Str 8, so iffy against Iron Arm (which gives EW anyways).

You mean the Move Through Cover MCs that you get for free? And yes, it's AP2.

The other 8 main guns are Str 8 AP3 large blast, so meh.

There are hull weapons, but they have to snap fire if I fire the main gun, and they're Heavy Bolters.

I have no chimeras in my normal list (depending on points costs of course).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You mean the Move Through Cover MCs that you get for free? And yes, it's AP2.

You do know MTC means I still have to roll - I just get an extra die. It's still possible to roll lower than a 6. (~40% chance to roll at least one 6 iirc).

the other 8 main guns are Str 8 AP3 large blast, so meh.

You do know that AP3 pierces pretty much anything Tyranids have, right?
So you're exactly as likely for them to cause a wound as you are to ID a model. Either way we're back to (likely) killing at least 2 MCs a turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You mean the Move Through Cover MCs that you get for free? And yes, it's AP2.

You do know MTC means I still have to roll - I just get an extra die. It's still possible to roll lower than a 6. (~40% chance to roll at least one 6 iirc).

the other 8 main guns are Str 8 AP3 large blast, so meh.

You do know that AP3 pierces pretty much anything Tyranids have, right?
So you're exactly as likely for them to cause a wound as you are to ID a model. Either way we're back to (likely) killing at least 2 MCs a turn.

Yes, you're right. However, I commonly fight an MC-spam Tyranid player, and his beasties usually have some protection, either because they're flying or they're iron-armed. And the flyers have twin-linked devouerers and they fly over and make a mess of my command tanks on turn 2 or 3, so it's not all one-sided.

People don't find Riptides OP, any that do are the whiners.

The problem is not the Riptides themselves but when they are synergised with the rest of the army, is when people start feeling hacked off.

Not my opinion, just what I have observed on Dakka

Riptides aren't even the best thing in their own codex. The internet should be ashamed of itself.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ABG isn't a normal IG list. 7 MCs? So five are Tervigons and 2 Hive Tyrants (not even flying). I'll do some number crunching for you, against my armored battlegroup:

I know it's not. It has significantly more guns that can wound my MCs. I'm not scared of las-guns.

That's 38 wounds. My armored battlegroup puts out 10 main-gun rounds a turn from its tanks. That means it would take me four turns if every shot hit and wounded with no save allowed to kill just your MCs. By turn 4, you'll be in CC, so some tanks will be dead. If you kill, say, 3 tanks on or by turn 4 (a ridiculously small number if you're just walking across the board and assaulting), then it would take all five turns in a five turn game just to kill your MCs.

I would feel pretty helpless in that situation without Beast Hunter shells.

And with Beast Hunter shells you essentially table me in 2.5 turns. Yeah, that's the right way to go - no prob bob.
There's no way for there to be a middle ground.

So you want to bend the rules on something that hard counters your army list?

It seems pretty obvious to me, across the board, that if you build an army list that draws almost all of its strengths from one area you may receive the boon of an highly competitive build, but you have to be willing to cope with the fact that this will open up some glaring or very specific weakness. That's called a hard-counter in these parts. I have trouble taking anyone seriously who sports such a build and is upset about being tabled by another very specific build. If you bring fire to the table every game, you've got to be aware of the fact that you might one day see water.

40K, in general, needs more counters to MCs, as they are *too* competitive in the meta atm.

Personally what I think what killed/is killing 6th:

Allies, there is no regard to balance or interaction.

Psychic disciplines, see above.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
So you want to bend the rules on something that hard counters your army list?

Sure if you want to ignore the original post I responded to.
I said Beast Hunter shells are overpowered. I defended my statement. I'm not sure what your point is?
They're as bad as MSS imo. If you find yourself always taking a specific piece of wargear or specific unit, it's likely overpowered compared to the rest of your options.
Yes, such options exist in many books (Twin Linked Devourers are overpowered compared to the other Nid options). That doesn't change the statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
40K, in general, needs more counters to MCs, as they are *too* competitive in the meta atm.

The problem with that is not all MCs are created equal. So by creating a counter to Riptides you neuter anything !Riptide (ie - most of the Tyranid MCs).

Yeah I agree with Rigeld2. Tyranid MCs are OP? How about Greater Deamons? See soooo many of those in Deamon list don't you. MC's are NOT the problem, it is the Riptide and to a lesser extent the Wraithknight. Tyranid MCs are not all that great, just because you only see two of them doesn't mean ALL of them are super awesome like the Tervigon. Anyone complain about the Carnifex lately? What about the Tyrannofex? Mawloc? Harpy? Hell, ANYONE want to put the Trygon/Prime on the table?

The Riptide IS that powerful because when the meta for the longest time was based around countering Riptides or handling Riptides then you have a problem. Sure they have fallen away in peoples minds because of the advent of Serpent Spam, Screamstar, and Seerstar. Does that make them any less powerful? No it just makes them less powerful than they new most powerful list. MC's are NOT the problem, otherwise you would see ALL MCs being powerful. It is mostly Riptides, Wraithknights, and Tervgons that get the most flakk. Hell, Flying Circus list are annoying but once it comes down to it DP's go down fairly easily once you can get some shots in.

This issue is even more questionably stupid to discuss than the FW being legal issue. There's only two possible outcomes which can never be settled anyway: 1) Its not fair, etc etc and 2) You're whining, grab some tissues.

It doesn't matter how much reasoning or logic you give, at the end of day debating whether they're overpowered or not is pointless as you can't definitively prove it to anyone. There is always a lot of spite and superiority complexes present when the issue is thrown around because you have massive apologists on both sides. You've got people who are apologizing for their own lack of success and people who apologize for the suppposed OPness of the Riptide, and frankly its nauseating to see.

For me, I haven't enjoyed playing against Riptides, I think they were poorly conceived, too versatile and too cheap. This is about the third~ thread I've seen where this has come up and I can't even be asked to try and elaborate why anymore.

Tau players insist that their codex is balanced (actually, underpowered, given just how rubbish riptides are), a conspiracy theory about GW breaks out, and the entire conversation gets veered completely off course by a single poster's fanatical devotion to forgeworld.

Welcome to dakka...

 Ailaros wrote:
Tau players insist that their codex is balanced (actually, underpowered, given just how rubbish riptides are), a conspiracy theory about GW breaks out, and the entire conversation gets veered completely off course by a single poster's fanatical devotion to forgeworld.

Welcome to dakka...

Everyone wants to be heard, even if it isn't about the topic.

To try and bring this topic back around to the topic....

I feel like Riptides are a symptom of what is going to kill this game. Yes, kill this game as it is now, not forever. The constant price raises and the constant creep can only go on so long before something crashes. The game will go on but I believe this will cause GW to force itself into a restructuring. Personally, I see this all over the world today, to many companies grabbing more and more all the while not realizing that their greed can't last forever. So yeah, is the Riptide stupid for what it brings to the game? Yes. Is IT ruining the game? No. GW is doing a just fine job of screwing things up themselves. The game wont die, but GW is going to be in for some pain and I am fairly sure it wont surprise them. The people who own GW know that this model wont last forever, but they don't care, they will take their money and invest in other companies when the GW well dries up.

I think what ruined balance is Games Workshop's inability to properly cost their units and to provide counters. Sure, you can have a unit that can shrug off gun fire but it should pay more for that power and should have something it's weak to. A Leman Russ tank, for instance, has great firepower and tough armor but is pricey and is weak in CC.

Sorry, I know I should let this go but I can't.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What decline do you speak of, precisely? Sales are up, games are easy to find, tournaments are booming, players are getting back into the game thanks to 6th ed. GW is making a profit.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, the actual evidence suggests that people are flocking towards newer games, and I'd wager things like this are exactly the reason.
I'm not saying this broke the meta and it, specifically, will drive people away but GWs entire, lazy approach to rules writing is slowly killing all their games.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Sorry, I know I should let this go but I can't.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What decline do you speak of, precisely? Sales are up, games are easy to find, tournaments are booming, players are getting back into the game thanks to 6th ed. GW is making a profit.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, the actual evidence suggests that people are flocking towards newer games, and I'd wager things like this are exactly the reason.
I'm not saying this broke the meta and it, specifically, will drive people away but GWs entire, lazy approach to rules writing is slowly killing all their games.

You see what you did here? You're right in that Asmodai presented an argument with no actual evidence, but then your rebuttal did the same thing. Saying "the actual evidence" does not count as providing data…

I honestly have no idea who is right, but you have to admit your response is pretty funny.

 anonymou5 wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Sorry, I know I should let this go but I can't.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What decline do you speak of, precisely? Sales are up, games are easy to find, tournaments are booming, players are getting back into the game thanks to 6th ed. GW is making a profit.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence, the actual evidence suggests that people are flocking towards newer games, and I'd wager things like this are exactly the reason.
I'm not saying this broke the meta and it, specifically, will drive people away but GWs entire, lazy approach to rules writing is slowly killing all their games.

You see what you did here? You're right in that Asmodai presented an argument with no actual evidence, but then your rebuttal did the same thing. Saying "the actual evidence" does not count as providing data…

I honestly have no idea who is right, but you have to admit your response is pretty funny.

That particular conversation has been had a few dozen times in the last 6 months and each time it has been shown that sales volume is continuing to decline. Sure, profits are up but volume is declining. Preliminary data for this year shows declining revenue all around except in N. America, oddly enough. All one need do is actually look at the financials on GW's website; I do, but then I own stock in the company... http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Preliminary-announcement-2013.pdf

One thing you'll note is falling inventories. Part of this is due to low turnover, that means less people are buying their merchandise, the remainder is due to "cost-saving" measures. Cost-saving is that they anticipate less people buying so they manufacture less; sometimes this causes supply issues (see the Tau roll-out).

Anywho, there you go.

this topic is so six weeks ago.

now its serpent spam and grav guns.

The it will be whatever is the next nasty thing in a codex.

tau are already declining in the most recent events - seriously, while before a codex (or build) was strong for almost a year - the new cycle is cutting down on the time in the limelight.

The next cool will be all the cool builds leveraging inquisitor.

(note: I am not disagreeing with the perception that the riptide is OP, I am saying that is the old cheese....we are already on to the new cheese.....the next cheese...is right around the corner).