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Looks like you guys had a lot of fun with the supplement.

Imagine jy2 not having puppetmaster . This is stupid.

Changing D-type weapons to S10 AP1 with Destroyer rule(ID on a to-wound roll of 6 on toughness models and auto-pen on 2's on vehicles, possibly Ignore Cover as well) would diminish the IWIN effect of the things, while still being immensely powerful.

Cheers for that 'batrep', really opened my eyes to the sheer scale of the problem

What would you think of Titans without the D weapons? Or with S10 AP1 or something as mentioned above?

I fail to understand why D weapons are so powerful. A Str 10 blast is only one step lower, so why does it negate all saves and FnP? Sorry, but if you're T9 the difference shouldn't make it as though you might as well be T5. Furthermore, ignoring invulnerable saves is stupid.

Heck, there shouldn't even be strength D weapons in the game. Aside from the fun-factor of telling your friends they're about to get the D, making the weapon S10 AP1/2 forcing a re-roll of successful invulnerable saves or simply making them take their save -1 (so that Storm Shield 3+= becomes a 4++ against a Destroyer weapon). Call it destroyer, but make it less OP and bland.

 Reecius wrote:
Yeah, we made some mistakes and Jim did win due to the format of our BAO system. Fair point.

But I think the more important point to take away from this is that D Weapons need to be carefully considered before using them in normal games.

Absolutely false. The take away is that 6th edition lists needs to adapt to 6.5 lists. Why don't you show a better of a 5th edition list against a 6th edition list. Then bemoan all the changes the 5th edition list would need to have to adapt to the new meta. That's the equivilent of this matchup.




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 jy2 wrote:
That's the point. Titans in regular games is really stupid and unfun....to the point that we could only laugh hard with incredulity. It's like watching a movie that is so bad that you just have to laugh at the sheer ludicrousness of it all.

Not true at all. You did not bring a list that adapted to the new meta. You brought an older edition list against a newer one.

Some people might say another type of list is stupid and unfun. Like one where it has a 2+ rerollable armor /cover save or or one that shoots 72 cover ignoring, tank hunting shots a turn or one that keeps all its scoring units hidden in flyers and attacks the enemy with non scoring invulnerable save close combat units.

How many points is that Titan?

DarthDiggler wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Yeah, we made some mistakes and Jim did win due to the format of our BAO system. Fair point.

But I think the more important point to take away from this is that D Weapons need to be carefully considered before using them in normal games.

Absolutely false. The take away is that 6th edition lists needs to adapt to 6.5 lists. Why don't you show a better of a 5th edition list against a 6th edition list. Then bemoan all the changes the 5th edition list would need to have to adapt to the new meta. That's the equivilent of this matchup.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
That's the point. Titans in regular games is really stupid and unfun....to the point that we could only laugh hard with incredulity. It's like watching a movie that is so bad that you just have to laugh at the sheer ludicrousness of it all.

Not true at all. You did not bring a list that adapted to the new meta. You brought an older edition list against a newer one.

Some people might say another type of list is stupid and unfun. Like one where it has a 2+ rerollable armor /cover save or or one that shoots 72 cover ignoring, tank hunting shots a turn or one that keeps all its scoring units hidden in flyers and attacks the enemy with non scoring invulnerable save close combat units.

This is why we can't have nice things.

There's a difference between natural meta-shift and sheer ludicrousness.

Iranna.


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Naw wrote:
How many points is that Titan?

I believe it's in the ~1000pts range, although I have 750pts in my head for some reason...

Iranna.

Ludicrousness? The Titan's army lost the battle. It is in the losers bracket for the rest of the tournament.

I will say this. Escalation probably solves the time issues at tourneys.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Ludicrousness? The Titan's army lost the battle. It is in the losers bracket for the rest of the tournament.

I will say this. Escalation probably solves the time issues at tourneys.

Actually, JY2 conceded so the Titan's army won the battle.

Furthermore, the Titan's army would only have lost due to the mission format of the BAO, not really indicative of how they are not a huge middle finger to the rest of 40k.

It also destroys any semblance of 'balance' that was left in 40k. Seriously, if this book isn't restricted to might as well call tournaments "mini Apocalypse games".

Iranna.

DarthDiggler wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Yeah, we made some mistakes and Jim did win due to the format of our BAO system. Fair point.

But I think the more important point to take away from this is that D Weapons need to be carefully considered before using them in normal games.

Absolutely false. The take away is that 6th edition lists needs to adapt to 6.5 lists. Why don't you show a better of a 5th edition list against a 6th edition list. Then bemoan all the changes the 5th edition list would need to have to adapt to the new meta. That's the equivilent of this matchup.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
That's the point. Titans in regular games is really stupid and unfun....to the point that we could only laugh hard with incredulity. It's like watching a movie that is so bad that you just have to laugh at the sheer ludicrousness of it all.

Not true at all. You did not bring a list that adapted to the new meta. You brought an older edition list against a newer one.

Some people might say another type of list is stupid and unfun. Like one where it has a 2+ rerollable armor /cover save or or one that shoots 72 cover ignoring, tank hunting shots a turn or one that keeps all its scoring units hidden in flyers and attacks the enemy with non scoring invulnerable save close combat units.

Are you kidding me? This sounds like a post from someone who has never faced the "new" D-weapons before (and I'm not talking about 5th Ed. Destroyer weapons).

You've got to play against them with the new Apoc rules to "appreciate" how stupidly unbalancing and powerful they are in a regular game of 40K. Then maybe you'll change your opinion. Til then, what you're saying is sheer nonsense.

5th Ed list? Since when does a 5th Ed. list have 3 flying monstrous creatures and 1 of the most powerful flyers in the game today? Since when does 5th Ed have 4HP AV13 walkers with Invuln's who are dang resilient against normal 6th Ed. armies? Since when does 5th Ed. have a unit like Be'Lakor.

If you think my list isn't a strong 6th Ed. lists, then you are seriously mistaken. Put a titan against anything else other than necron flyer-spam or a pure FMC-spam daemon list and they will get blown out much, much earlier than this. Seriously, I am a competitive player and my lists are always strong TAC lists that take into consideration the strengths of the current meta. And as a competitive player, I have a high tolerance for what many consider as "broken" in this edition. They say Tau is broken with their cover-ignoring and super-shooty shenanigans, eldar and daemons with their re-rollable 2+ saves and necrons with MSS and troops in flyers. I say, bring it on. However, even I have a line that I don't cross. Well, 6th Ed. Destroyer weapons in regular games of 40K is one that crosses the line. It is literally picking up your models and putting them away without even a reasonable or slim chance of surviving. Only flyers/FMC's have a prayer against Destroyer blasts and only 1 power in the entire book has any chance of success against them at all....and that is a power that isn't even guaranteed for all but 1 guy in the game!

I honestly don't understand how anyone could find that matchup fun to watch, much less play. It was fun in the sense that it was stupid to the point of hilarity, but it certainly wasn't a fun game on the tabletop. Sorry, I'm calling anyone who says it was a sneaky bugger with an ulterior motive.

 Araenion wrote:
Changing D-type weapons to S10 AP1 with Destroyer rule(ID on a to-wound roll of 6 on toughness models and auto-pen on 2's on vehicles, possibly Ignore Cover as well) would diminish the IWIN effect of the things, while still being immensely powerful.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Cheers for that 'batrep', really opened my eyes to the sheer scale of the problem

What would you think of Titans without the D weapons? Or with S10 AP1 or something as mentioned above?

Personally, I am against Titans in regular tournament play. Period. However, it would be ok with me if the tournament was split up into 2 different tournaments like they do in Adepticon. In Adepticon, there is the Championships, which is regular 40K, and there is the Gladiator where each person can bring up to 1 super-heavy. Thus, if you advertise it like that, then I am ok with it as people will know what they are getting into.

Otherwise, I am normally against altering the rules in most cases. Either allow it in all its glory in a Gladiator-type event or ban it completely. Destroyer weapons never really was meant to be in regular games anyways but GW just had to go and screw the pooch when they basically said, to hell with balance and tournaments.

But in a friendly, casual game, any house-rule you guys come out with is fine as long as both parties are ok with it.

 McNinja wrote:
I fail to understand why D weapons are so powerful. A Str 10 blast is only one step lower, so why does it negate all saves and FnP? Sorry, but if you're T9 the difference shouldn't make it as though you might as well be T5. Furthermore, ignoring invulnerable saves is stupid.

Heck, there shouldn't even be strength D weapons in the game. Aside from the fun-factor of telling your friends they're about to get the D, making the weapon S10 AP1/2 forcing a re-roll of successful invulnerable saves or simply making them take their save -1 (so that Storm Shield 3+= becomes a 4++ against a Destroyer weapon). Call it destroyer, but make it less OP and bland.

You, my friend, need to get a copy of Apoc to see why they are so powerful.

There is almost no saves of any type against it. No cover, no invuln's, no FNP, even Reanimation Protocols isn't allowed! The only "save" that is possible are from Eldar Titan Holo-fields, and those are only available on Eldar and Titan models. S10 is about a mile lower. Daemons laugh at S10 with their invuln's. People behind the Aegis laugh at S10. With cover/invuln's, there is a high chance of survival even against S10. With D-weapons, it is just literally pick up your models...see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. With vehicles, there is only a 1 in 6 chance of surviving (with a penetrating hit). Otherwise, it is auto-kill. You know that 300-pt 5HP land raider spartan that you just got? Gone in a blink of an eye. Hell, the revenant can easily kill 2 of those LR's in just 1 turn!!!

Naw wrote:
How many points is that Titan?

$9.00

JY2

You my friend need to get a copy of the fortification rule book.

Void shields > than D Weapons. I thought the fortification book allows anyone to buy a void shield for 25-40pts.

Seriously drop in 5 deep striking meltaguns and see what happens to the Titan. Try deep striking the Soul Grinders with torrent and see what happens to the squishy troops. Try using the fortification book which also came out wit the Titan.

How many D Weapons can hit a flyer?


Your whole rant misread what I wrote. You played a 6th edition list against a 6.5 edition list. I was equating that to playing a 5th edition list against a 6th. I did not say you played a 5th.

The fact remains you did not utilize all the new resources in your game. It proves nothing, contrary to what you and Reece hoped to show, except that the meta needs to adapt using ALL the rules. Not just cherry picked ones.

DarthDiggler wrote:
JY2

You my friend need to get a copy of the fortification rule book.

Void shields > than D Weapons. I thought the fortification book allows anyone to buy a void shield for 25-40pts.

Seriously drop in 5 deep striking meltaguns and see what happens to the Titan. Try deep striking the Soul Grinders with torrent and see what happens to the squishy troops. Try using the fortification book which also came out wit the Titan.

How many D Weapons can hit a flyer?


Your whole rant misread what I wrote. You played a 6th edition list against a 6.5 edition list. I was equating that to playing a 5th edition list against a 6th. I did not say you played a 5th.

The fact remains you did not utilize all the new resources in your game. It proves nothing, contrary to what you and Reece hoped to show, except that the meta needs to adapt using ALL the rules. Not just cherry picked ones.

Void shields are crap. Fire a missile launcher or autocannon at the void shield to get rid of it and then fire your D-weapons afterwards. Also, eldar titans have guns that can bypass Void shields entirely.

Remember, you can only reserve half of your army. If you DS the soulgrinder, then you've got to leave a FMC deployed on the table or all of your troops (and in an objectives game).

1 unit of melt-gunners won't do much to a titan. You need to DS at least 3 units of meltagunners to even have a chance, that is, if your opponent doesn't bubble-wrap it and force you out of the 6" melta double-tap range. BTW, not sure if you realize this, but titans ignore everything on the damage charts except an explosion result. You can never shake or stun it and you can't immobilize or blow away its gun. In other words, it'll always keep on moving and shooting until the day it literally dies.

Also, don't forget about the amount of Interceptor weapons on the Tau formations.

Flyers are the strongest solution to Destroyer titans, and even they are an underdog at best. Everything else will just get annihilated. But you know what? Smart titan players will bring cheap bodies to bubble-wrap their titans and lots of anti-flyer weaponry to address their weaknesses.

What the heck is the difference between 6th Ed. and 6.5th Ed. So does that mean everyone is forced to bring in formations, dataslates and titans just to play on a level playing field. My god, is that what the game has become? Well, tell that to the masses - to the 90% of the people out there who isn't competitive or don't have the resources to "modernize" their armies.

If the Escalation rules were followed, this seems to be another half-arsed product by GW. I expected them to tone those down for 40k, but guess they didn't bother to do that.

I have new simplified rules for 7th. Instead of ranges, saves etc just roll to hit by an unit, if hit scored remove target unit from game.

The whole play a 5th edition against a 6th is an utter crap rebuttal. Some of us have been playing 5th edition lists still and have found effect with them in 6th. Only when I throw ork fliers into my list does my list ever evolve past what would be considered still a 5th edition list. Even then, arguing the effectiveness of editions is not a way to justify further unbalancing. Look at armies that do not have access to a plethora of D weapons compared to armies that do not. Dark Eldar and Tyranids both do not have ready access to D weapons so arguing that D weapons bring new balance is further crap.

Where as armies like standard Eldar and Space Marines can bring quite an effective load out of D weapons, it is kind of just taking the already broken mechanics of apocalypse and trying to cram them into standard play.(The main tactic for apocalypse is pack as many D weapons into your loadout slots for supers as you can. Good example is Imperial/Chaos titans.) Most players don't bother taking what would be considered phenomenal guns in standard play into apocalypse game types. Once again I'd point at imperials titans, the comparison between a Volcano Cannon and a Meltacannon, Volcano Cannon gives you a d weapon with 240" range, where as Meltacannon is a 72", both have large blast templates but the Meltacannon will rarely be seen due to the fact it is not a D weapon so suffers from actually having to roll to wound/pen.

Further example how broken D weapons are is that almost all LGS I have gone to for an apocalypse game has some sort of House rule to either give incentive to take other loadouts, outright restricts the amount of D weapons per side/player. Example of incentives are D Weapon Target Priority is one where you are required to aim at Titans and other super heavies first, I've seen ones where the scatter is required(Not always good either if it just scatters onto another infantry unit.) Yes Fluff wise these things are giant monsters that utterly decimates battalions of infantry, but hey in Fluff so are Marines.

 jy2 wrote:
What the heck is the difference between 6th Ed. and 6.5th Ed. So does that mean everyone is forced to bring in formations, dataslates and titans just to play on a level playing field. My god, is that what the game has become? Well, tell that to the masses - to the 90% of the people out there who isn't competitive or don't have the resources to "modernize" their armies.

Quite. Used to be you could just buy a new rulebook and that's that. A difference between two wholly different editions is just one book. A difference between this so called 6.5ed and 6th edition is god knows how many dataslates and supplements they still have planned. Do I need all of them to have a chance to play on a level playing field? Do I also need an ipad or a tablet so I can actually get them? Do I need to spend several hundred dollars on a single model that is far too big for a regular sized table? That's not a game I'm willing to play and fortunately none of the players in my area want to play such a game either.

The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.

The only things that are relevant are the titan, the few things that can kill the titan, and minimum cost scoring units. Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.

So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.

Any sane TO should ban these things.

Yup. That Bat Rep pretty much went the way most of us were expecting. Let's hope we never see this kind of broken nonsense being allowed in tournaments.

D Weapons don't make peace; They don't even make war! They make total destruction, annihilation, Armageddon.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.

Yup, it pretty much renders most of the rest of the options in the game meaningless. Why spend 1/4k on a Landraider, when it's gonna be one shot killed? Why spend extra points on elite or better armoured troops when it's not going to matter what they're wearing? True, you still have the non-D weapon components of your opponents army to worry about, but, even then....

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
The problem, in my opinion, with D-Weapons in normal games is that it renders so much of the armies bland and meaningless. Tanks, whether rhinos or landraiders will get popped just as quickly, as will infantry, whether paladins or grots.

The only things that are relevant are the titan, the few things that can kill the titan, and minimum cost scoring units. Draigowing is dead, screamerstar is dead, Seer Council is dead, anything that remotely resembles a small, elite army is dead.

So much flavor of the game vanishes under a pummeling from the D.

Any sane TO should ban these things.

Well said, William.

An unintended consequence of Titans with D-weapons is that it will also stymie the variety in the game and that is never a good thing. It's also going to render a lot of armies obsolete and that will piss off a lot of people. In the extreme case, you are going to see a lot of people leave the hobby because of this and that is a very bad thing.

Jy2, did you see my post about the super heavy walker only being able to shoot at one target?. I couldnt find anything in the Esclation book last night to say that it could fire at two targets, this slightly lessens the pain as then you could only lose one unti a turn....

MarkyMark wrote:
Jy2, did you see my post about the super heavy walker only being able to shoot at one target?. I couldnt find anything in the Esclation book last night to say that it could fire at two targets, this slightly lessens the pain as then you could only lose one unti a turn....

Super heavy walkers follow the same rules for shooting as super heavy vehicles, so yes, they can fire at as many different targets as it has weapons.

Yeah...I can say I won't play against titans in a normal game. There's simply no way for me to be competitive against it without spending money on a superheavie for me, and I don't enjoy being tabled, so there wouldn't be a whole lot of reason to play.

Rynner wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Jy2, did you see my post about the super heavy walker only being able to shoot at one target?. I couldnt find anything in the Esclation book last night to say that it could fire at two targets, this slightly lessens the pain as then you could only lose one unti a turn....

Super heavy walkers follow the same rules for shooting as super heavy vehicles, so yes, they can fire at as many different targets as it has weapons.

Do you have the Escaltion book then? as it doesnt say that in there?. (unless I missed something of course!)

Check page 121. Super-heavy walkers are super-heavy vehicles and use the rules for shooting, vehicle damage, etc...

To all those people claiming that we just need to bring better suited lists...please show us what you're talking about. We've mentioned that Necron Flyers and FMC Spam can stand a chance (only because they can't be hit by those blasts). What else?
Jy2 should have played a better list? Like what? What changes would you make to his list to make it stronger against something like that?

MarkyMark wrote:
Jy2, did you see my post about the super heavy walker only being able to shoot at one target?. I couldnt find anything in the Esclation book last night to say that it could fire at two targets, this slightly lessens the pain as then you could only lose one unti a turn....

I actually haven't even seen the Escalation rules yet so no, I don't know.

However, in the Apoc book, a super-heavy walker acts just as a super-heavy vehicle, which means they can fire all of their guns and at different targets as well. So unless the Escalation supplement altered the rules which was in the Apoc, then what he did should have been legal. The only thing that might not have been legal is the firing arcs as walkers can only pivot 45 degrees in either direction. That means a 90 degree firing arc only. In other words, his titan shouldn't have been able to jump on top of the building and blow away both soulgrinders on T1 as only 1 of them would have been in his arc. However, that little mistake most likely wouldn't have affected the outcome at all. He still had the firepower left to blow away the 2nd grinder on T2.

Thats page 121 of the Apoc rule book right?. IT doesnt have that rule in the esclation book, good ole GW....

 jy2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
JY2

You my friend need to get a copy of the fortification rule book.

Void shields > than D Weapons. I thought the fortification book allows anyone to buy a void shield for 25-40pts.

Seriously drop in 5 deep striking meltaguns and see what happens to the Titan. Try deep striking the Soul Grinders with torrent and see what happens to the squishy troops. Try using the fortification book which also came out wit the Titan.

How many D Weapons can hit a flyer?


Your whole rant misread what I wrote. You played a 6th edition list against a 6.5 edition list. I was equating that to playing a 5th edition list against a 6th. I did not say you played a 5th.

The fact remains you did not utilize all the new resources in your game. It proves nothing, contrary to what you and Reece hoped to show, except that the meta needs to adapt using ALL the rules. Not just cherry picked ones.

Void shields are crap. Fire a missile launcher or autocannon at the void shield to get rid of it and then fire your D-weapons afterwards. Also, eldar titans have guns that can bypass Void shields entirely.

Remember, you can only reserve half of your army. If you DS the soulgrinder, then you've got to leave a FMC deployed on the table or all of your troops (and in an objectives game).

1 unit of melt-gunners won't do much to a titan. You need to DS at least 3 units of meltagunners to even have a chance, that is, if your opponent doesn't bubble-wrap it and force you out of the 6" melta double-tap range. BTW, not sure if you realize this, but titans ignore everything on the damage charts except an explosion result. You can never shake or stun it and you can't immobilize or blow away its gun. In other words, it'll always keep on moving and shooting until the day it literally dies.

Also, don't forget about the amount of Interceptor weapons on the Tau formations.

Flyers are the strongest solution to Destroyer titans, and even they are an underdog at best. Everything else will just get annihilated. But you know what? Smart titan players will bring cheap bodies to bubble-wrap their titans and lots of anti-flyer weaponry to address their weaknesses.

What the heck is the difference between 6th Ed. and 6.5th Ed. So does that mean everyone is forced to bring in formations, dataslates and titans just to play on a level playing field. My god, is that what the game has become? Well, tell that to the masses - to the 90% of the people out there who isn't competitive or don't have the resources to "modernize" their armies.

Simple simple Jim. You and Reece suffer from the same Chicken Little syndrome. Right now you have a 900pt unit surrounded by every counter to it that you can imagine. How many points is that army that bubble wraps a Titan (keeping it from moving 36" a turn I guess), shoot down flyers, disable Void Shields, open Christmas presents, shine it's shoes and does all its homework. All under 1750pts right.

Your last statement speaks volumes. You complain everyone is forced to change their army now, but didn't that happen when 6th introduced? Excuse me but I don't see you playing Purifier Spam in rhinos anymore. Did you have to change your army? I don't see Reece playing Bjorn Wolves anymore. Did he have to change his army?

The masses, 90% as you say DO NOT change their armies no matter what. That's why the same guys win big tourneys. Those are the guys willing to change their armies with the new rules or have I been blind and all these recent tourney winners have really been playing Necron catacomb Command Barges (remember the douche canoe? Didn't last long did it.), 5-man purifier spam, and flamers of Tzeentch spam? No they adapted, they changed their armies for the meta and they won the big tourneys.

At the beginning of 6th Reece wanted to band. TO's together and do away with random assault ranges. Now he wants to band together and eliminate, no rewrite, whole sections of the rulebook. Let's ban Escalation and Stronghold assault because it scares us. Let's rewrite the main rulebook and eliminate 2+ saves. Let's play Myhammer 40k because I don't like Warhammer 40k.

If I were king I would eliminate allies or at least reduce all Battle brothers to Allies of Convienance. There is no list that can't function without BB. That one rule has done more damage than any other. If that can't be done then I want everything allowed Workshop says is allowed. Otherwise all anyone is really doing is picking and choosing which armies will win and which will lose. Which armies can break and FOC and which can not.