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 tetrisphreak wrote:
I'm with allowing it. Full tilt. If GW puts out rules that reintroduce the alpha strike donkey stomp tournament lists, so be it. 2+ re roll saves will disappear and you'll see haywire, meltas, and reserve heavy lists appear to balance vs the super heavies. Add in void shield terrain and vortex missile silos (which are 1/4 the price of that revenant and about 60% it's point cost) and the meta simply shifts once more.

The (tournament) game will always be dominated by power hungry combo abusers

I won't post more on this topic because this is exactly what I wanted to say all long. I will only add that I expected this out of JY2's and Reece's mouth, as they are at the forefront of showcasing and using such power hungry combos so far in this edition (i used some of that cheese too) You could say that bodes poorly for the D plates, since the Kraft and Macaroni of Cheese condemn them, from making a tournament splash. I think however that you'll start to see ways to "handle" such abusive monstrosities. I use "handle" that way because that's in direct relation on how people view facing off again 40k 6.0 edition abusive units.

I will part with this. I remember 2nd ed. I remember just placing models down and picking them up without even rolling a die for them. Charactors and models that I personaly chose wargear for (pricey wargear at that) and watched them die without being used. It sucked. It sucked the second, third, forth, fifth, and sixth times it happened. However, I got the hint. I took it apon myself to see what resources I really had at my disposal and made the best I could with it. As stated, the meta shifted. Whereas I took a beating 3 weeks in a row, come week 4 I'd go on a hot streak where it was point/counterpoint forever and ever until we get to today. I'm not shocked that 20 years later people cry foul when picking up handfuls of models. Models who are the exact same ones from which countless GT's have been won with, but now are yesterdays news. I've been there. Now I'm wise enough to see that everything gets its time in the sun. This time it's D-Cannons. No different from Seercouncil, 'nidzilla, doomrider, or the lictors of old. A win is a win. Something will present itself that counters or something will be released even more broken.

since the Kraft and Macaroni of Cheese condemn them

Hahaha,

Jim is the Kraft, I am the Macaroni!

D Weapons shouldn't be in the game, IMO. Too powerful to be fun in anything but special events for them and scenario play.

I wrote an Editorial on this topic here if anyone is interested in reading it: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/12/08/were-not-prepared-to-repel-firepower-of-that-magnitude/

Yeah, Reece is Macaroni and I am Krafty. Heh, heh....


Ok, enough doom and gloom about the state of 40K. I am actually excited for the new Escalation supplement, despite my demeanor in this thread. I love Apoc and I love competitive games. Escalation actually fulfills both for me.


I'm actually going to come out with a series of articles on Escalation tactics and army lists. Be on the lookout for them in the next few days.

 jy2 wrote:
Yeah, Reece is Macaroni and I am Krafty. Heh, heh....


Ok, enough doom and gloom about the state of 40K. I am actually excited for the new Escalation supplement, despite my demeanor in this thread. I love Apoc and I love competitive games. Escalation actually fulfills both for me.


I'm actually going to come out with a series of articles on Escalation tactics and army lists. Be on the lookout for them in the next few days.

Looking forward to that! After all, same things were told about flyers. And here we go again...

I'm Macraoni because I use my noodle! hahaha, call me the pun master!

40K is fine, we're already getting over all the fuss.

The poll results so far are very encouraging to me. We will post them on Wednesday.

I would like to see a rematch where CD/CSM went first. Although he is ill-equipped to really handle the titan. Ha, this calls for the Skullcannon

That is why apocalypse exists. That is the purpose of playing super heavy. I don't see the reason to follow what GW produces. The game will be ruined totally if the worldwide community embraces this hilarious GW failure.

 avedominusnox wrote:
That is why apocalypse exists. That is the purpose of playing super heavy. I don't see the reason to follow what GW produces. The game will be ruined totally if the worldwide community embraces this hilarious GW failure.

No, it won't.


See, I can make unsupported claims too!

The polls show it's not been received well.

What polls where? Isn't that just the opinion of those who are aware of them and can be bothered to vote?

Also what question was being asked?

I am not sure either way about this yet myself.

The polls are over in the tournament forum.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What polls where? Isn't that just the opinion of those who are aware of them and can be bothered to vote?

Also what question was being asked?

I am not sure either way about this yet myself.

Frontline Gaming has sent a poll to all of those who are registered to the Las Vegas Open on whether or not they want to allow Escalation/Stronghold Assault at the event (i'm guessing - he mentioned it in the Saturday Podcast).

While he is openly against it he's doing the poll to see if he's in the minority. Obviously a tournament should cater to its players (somewhat) so i agree with his method of polling.

That said I think an open poll should be created for the general masses to vote on their opinions over this subject, just as a social experiment.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The polls are over in the tournament forum.

Not being a tournament player I had not seen - but that's kinda the point its a opinion of a proportion of the people who play 40K who have a strong enough opinion to see it and vote.........nto really conclusive.

Anything is okay in a pickup game if both players consent. Tournaments is another subject.

I have been saying that FW in tounies is unbalanced for the exact same reasons,

under 2k, or in a tourny, no FW of any kind, no incestuous allies, and we are good.


I dont think the bat rep is an accurate portrayal either though...

seing as how the guy with the eldar titan actually lost, and I am pretty sure it can only fire at one target a turn, not two as with other super heavies that are not walkers

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Anything is okay in a pickup game if both players consent. Tournaments is another subject.

Agreed. In pickup games, you can just say no, I don't want to play against a titan. In tournament play, you have no choice if they allow it. The problem is, there are still a lot of people who really don't know about Escalation and Stronghold. When you go to a tournament and you have to face the likes of those units unprepared, some people are going to be pissed. Not good for the game and definitely not good for the tournament unless they take the time to advertise their tournament as a no-holds-barred Escalation-allowed tournament (and even then, there will probably still be people feeling butthurt and pissed).

I think it is more the d weapons, being told to remove models because they are dead is harsh, espically to the un suspecting player. I always feel bad when I roll 11 on the warp storm table and replace their farseer/synpase creature/warlord etc with a herald. Also with the heralds and horrors shooting, ap4 with prescience and prefect timing is not nice against 4+ armour saves either, recently killed 20 guardians plus farseer and spiritseer in one volley, wasnt nice to tell my opponent they are all dead and he didnt like it either. So d weapons being so strong you will be telling your opponent to remove models with no possible saves not just on armour saves but invul and cover as well is not how I like to play this game.

Also I was wrong about the Titan, it can indeed shoot more then one target, I missed the wording on my first glance for super heavy walkers

Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

thanatos67 wrote:

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

On a 2+ buildings suffer a detonate result.

blaktoof wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

On a 2+ buildings suffer a detonate result.

yeah true, you can still roll a 1 and not have it turn to steam.

I think the problem people have with D weapons is their hero hammer deathstar units being countered so easily.

No one wants their epic group of heroes to be D-stroyed in one shot. Of course its not automatic like everyone is saying here.

models hit suffer an effect on a 2+

one of those effects results is d3+1 wounds. so there is actually a decent chance a D weapon will not kill any model with 3+ wounds in 1 hit. Its not automatic removal of the models.

16% chance if you are hit of nothing happening,

66% chance of d3+1 wounds

16% chance of worse.

So if your uber deathstar unit did get splatted by a D weapon there is a 38% chance any models with 3+ wounds will live, a ~60% chance any models with 4+ wounds live, and a ~85% chance any models with 5+ wounds live.

blaktoof wrote:
I think the problem people have with D weapons is their hero hammer deathstar units being countered so easily.

I think those that object object to the fact that everything except flyers are countered so easily.

thanatos67 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

On a 2+ buildings suffer a detonate result.

yeah true, you can still roll a 1 and not have it turn to steam.

Good luck with that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
I think the problem people have with D weapons is their hero hammer deathstar units being countered so easily.

No one wants their epic group of heroes to be D-stroyed in one shot. Of course its not automatic like everyone is saying here.

models hit suffer an effect on a 2+

one of those effects results is d3+1 wounds. so there is actually a decent chance a D weapon will not kill any model with 3+ wounds in 1 hit. Its not automatic removal of the models.

16% chance if you are hit of nothing happening,

66% chance of d3+1 wounds

16% chance of worse.

So if your uber deathstar unit did get splatted by a D weapon there is a 38% chance any models with 3+ wounds will live, a ~60% chance any models with 4+ wounds live, and a ~85% chance any models with 5+ wounds live.

Good bye old DeathStar... Say hello to the new and improved DeathStar!

Exactly, if you think deathstars are OP and too much for your army will till the super heavy lists come out, I have thought of one that is pretty horrible, looking forward to trying it out really but not something I want to play with or against in a tourny.

I think SH;s will make cookie cutter lists worse as well, so good luck with thinking SH's are a good counter to deathstars, its just replacing one problem with another....

While obviously it's incredibly early to be making sweeping statements, I feel this might not actually end up being the end of the world.

I feel that there exists a good possibility that adding a unit that hard counters the crazy over the top 2++ units who itself is vulnerable to any kind of quick massed melta unit might actually balance things out.

I don't think we'll see everyone switch to a Revenant based tournament list, but enough of them along with the (most likely) more common single D weapon SH would seriously encourage people away from the 2++ super units.

thanatos67 wrote:

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

One thing to note is that you cannot shoot at a bastion if it is not occupied. Thus, against titans with D-guns, it's better just to hide behind it than in it.

@Tetrisphreak

Yes, it is a poll to paid registered attendees. There is a public poll also in the tournament discussion thread that I started that is giving feedback, but I goofed the first question (it should not have been in there as it throws off the rest of the data) but it still provides useful information.

And yeah, I state how I feel about stuff but at the end of the day, we give our players what they want. So, I may eat crow and allow things my instincts tell me now to.

@Thread

Don't forget everyone, that void shields go both ways and are hardly a solution, in my mind. And while yes, the Deathstars get the D hard, so do everyone else! I honestly feel it isn't the smart play to use D Weapons in anything but Gladiator style events, narrative events and scenario play.

 jy2 wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:

Sargow wrote:
Not sure if it is allowed but how is the sD weapon worded?
cause from what i have read the bastion seems to be a very good counter to it.

Buildings suffer a detonation result vs any d shot, so a bastion turns into stream if it even gets clipped by a d blast.

One thing to note is that you cannot shoot at a bastion if it is not occupied. Thus, against titans with D-guns, it's better just to hide behind it than in it.

That would be a really crappy way to have to play.

Hey, you've got to do what you've got to do when facing D weapons. Either that or get blown out of the game by Turns 3-4.