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DarthDiggler wrote:
The threat of its presence is all it takes to shift the meta away from no interactive deathstars. That's what the community wants.

I would much rather play against a well painted titan and lose in 30 minutes, than have to spend 2+ hours watching my opponent play a game of solitaire. I cannot comprehend why ANYONE who says a 2++ rerollable army is easy to beat, or defeatable "if you just play well," is scared of a Titan. It is exactly the same - you need to play perfectly, your opponent probably needs to make a mistake or two, and/or the dice need to be in your favor. That is how you regularly win against either council, and that is how you will regularly beat a Titan.

To me? As a "middle of the pack"-er at best, I would infinitely prefer to pick-up my models (and get to go watch a buddy play) than sit there futily pushing models around a table. I know if I am going to have a chance by T2 in both cases, one just gets me where I am going faster than the other.

Voting with my wallet and skipping tournaments is getting boring, I am all for Lords of War being legal.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

In the age of Escalation, the Revenant is king. The only titan that stands a chance is the Harridan but even he can be grounded by conventional means nowadays (he couldn't before). In tournament play assuming they allow Escalation units, the Revenant is going to dominate all but necron flyer-spam and daemon FMC-spam. Any gargants you take is going to be rendered obsolete when going up against these types of Escalation armies. Yeah, they'll do great against any other army, even Escalation armies sans Destroyer weaponry, but they just can't hold a candle to the big D. You're just going to have to try to win it with the rest of the army and write off your gargant in the face of multiple destroyer shots.

I'd think that the thunderhawk is the king of escalation. Being immune to most Ds by value of flight, a transport capacity and packing a D gives it a greater degree of versatility and resiliency.

However, it is limited by restrictions of flyer movement and it can't fire its D-cannon at other flyers. Moreover, it's got Rear AV10 only! You can deal with it as you do other flyers. IMO, it is nowhere near as bad as a Revenant.

 Valek wrote:
With Necrons i could see following become popular,

Anrakyr
3 harbringers of the Storm
Belakor

5 Warriors/Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Warriors/Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Warriors/Immortals w/ Nightscythe
10 Chaos cultists

Helldrake

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Big C'tan or Pylon, or the sphere, if 3*6 s7 Tesla would be good

enough to screw a titan over 3 times and still have a shot against a lot of armies...

to much points with the superheavy but you get the idea...

Be'lakor is pretty much going to be an auto-include for chaos players/allies in games of Escalation. For the necron HQ, I actually wouldn't go with Anrakyr. With BS4, his Mind in the Machines isn't actually very reliable and then next turn, he is dead. Rather, I'd include Trazyn because he's scoring. Leave him in the flyer to score and the end and this way, you also preserve your Warlord. Also, with Trazyn, I can play my storm-teks more aggressively and as sacrificial units against other titans.

It kinda sucks, but you can't run a Pylon in Escalation. Don't know what's the deal with that, but if your opponent doesn't mind, then go for it. I really like the pylon because you can also deepstrike the sucker and get the alpha-strike with it if you're going 2nd.

But yeah, that's a template for a nasty necron Escalation army.

Hey Reecius and crew, so most of the discussion seems to revolve around strength D weapons, not the super heavies themselves. However, not all superheavies have strength D. So what do you think about just banning strength D, rather than all super heavies? Would that make things "fair" or does the advantage still lie with the super heavy army at that point?

Perhaps even a rule that dictates any strength D is now strength 10 ap 2 ignores cover?

 Mythantor wrote:
It seems to me that the problem is the Revenant with its superior mobility and firepower compared to the other Titans is the problem rather than the Titans and D weapons themselves.

I don't think people would have a problem with D weapons if you could only get one shot or maybe a 2 shot single weapon on a slow moving unit.

Its just the speed that allows it to easily gain LoS and prevent it getting bogged down in assault combined with 4 D str weapons.

The Revenant is the boss. He is the king of Escalation currently until they expand it to include more super-heavies.

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK the arguments being put forth that the rest of the titans army will destroy you are ludicrous. At 900 points you are not going to be bubble wrapping, capturing objectives, downing void shields etc. etc.

If void shields ony cost that of a land speeder then gimme a break. That Phantom was just invalidated. I am with diggler here, letting Vect or imotek seize on a 3+ or any imperial army getting corteaz is really going to deter these things.

If you reserve it, that's 900 points in reserve! Sorry that never wins you games. OK hardly ever. Now your apparently 850 of bubble wrap/shield breakers needs to survive 2 turns unsupported?

At this point in time the game has almost no balance left. Heck I am remaking my beloved DE finally, replacing my 1998 models That book has almost no internal balance. It's a Kelly book, obviously a scourge with a shard carbine should pay the dame as a warrior to get a SC right? That's at a single book level, add the fact that the new books are even WORSE internally and externally and the fact that the allies matrix was never fair and the best armies have access to all the other top armies and yea.... There goes the game.

I say let it all in because there is no way to justify banning escalation or D weapons and not banning other similarly abusive combos. I for one would love a crack at a Revenant, I know exactly what and how to kill it now and I no even my awful pure DE can bring her down in a turn. That's a lot of wraith bone for the cause

Luckily for you, your DE can take a revenant as well. And with the low-cost of a DE army, they can actually make for a very good Escalation army. As a matter of fact, I'd say MSU DE can be downright scary in Escalation.

 Sarigar wrote:
The best thing I think TO's and players alike need to do is get some games under their belts with these rules and see how it plays out. Between Escalation and Stronghold Assault, there is a lot to digest. The Revenant Titan was just the obvious one based on its shooting.

And another posted did state one thing I also think will happen. You will see a Lord of War piece in a regular codex and then what will the community do?

Those books are a part of the game and just autobanning (tourneys and pick up games) based off of speculation rather than actually playing the game out is a bit disappointing to say the least.

By the time that happens - if it happens - then it probably won't matter anymore. It'll already be 7th Ed. 40K already. It'll be a whole new ballgame then.

As for tournament banning, if you don't like it, then just don't go. Simple as that. If you really want to bring Escalation into tournament play, then lobby your TO for it. Tournaments probably will eventually allow Escalation, but it'll take time IMO.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
Hey Reecius and crew, so most of the discussion seems to revolve around strength D weapons, not the super heavies themselves. However, not all superheavies have strength D. So what do you think about just banning strength D, rather than all super heavies? Would that make things "fair" or does the advantage still lie with the super heavy army at that point?

Perhaps even a rule that dictates any strength D is now strength 10 ap 2 ignores cover?

They're testing out the non-D superheavies. I believe you will see another batrep out shortly. Personally, I'd have no problem with non-D superheavies in tournament play.

 jy2 wrote:

I'm comparing apples (titans) to apples (titans) here. If you want to compare apples to oranges (regular units), then of course titans will have the advantage. They are designed to be tough to kill by conventional means. They used to be designed to withstand even punishment from super weapons - the Destroyer weapons - but the times have changed. Destroyer weapons in 6E Apoc has far exceeded the power level of those in 5E. Right now, most Gargants can only take at most 2 D-hits on average and then they are dead. Yes, the Transcendent C'tan is very good. However, no gargants nowadays can compete with the power of the D. In the age of Escalation, the Revenant is king. The only titan that stands a chance is the Harridan but even he can be grounded by conventional means nowadays (he couldn't before). In tournament play assuming they allow Escalation units, the Revenant is going to dominate all but necron flyer-spam and daemon FMC-spam. Any gargants you take is going to be rendered obsolete when going up against these types of Escalation armies. Yeah, they'll do great against any other army, even Escalation armies sans Destroyer weaponry, but they just can't hold a candle to the big D. You're just going to have to try to win it with the rest of the army and write off your gargant in the face of multiple destroyer shots.

... did you actually read what I wrote? Str D writes anything off. In a battle between two Revenants, the one which wins is the one with first turn. So what? What are you even trying to say? Str D is broken? I already said that. What you apparently missed is that the C'tan is good against everything. Revenants are not. Many armies, given first turn, can easily wipe a Revenant off the board at range. Tau can. Eldar can. Necrons can. Absolutely nothing BUT a Revenant has the guarantee to do that to the C'tan. Please stop repeatedly saying that gargantuans will be obsolete in the face of titans/mass str D when I know from experience that they are in absolutely no way rendered obsolete. What tend to actually happen is they get into chain combats so they can't even be hit or in the case of the C'tan, it hides so you can't even shoot it. You are just plain wrong here because, again, everything is wiped by mass Str D, but GCs are not wiped by conventional means whereas SHs easily can be. Once again, SHs are no more durable against str D proportionally points wise - up to 600 points, most GCs/SHs take 2, 600-1200 takes 3 and 1200+ takes 4+. I really don't know what else I can say - you've basically just told me that when you look at two units, the more durable one is less durable. How am I meant to react?

Mass haywire from necrons? You do realize that you are exposing your troops, right? You can risk killing his titan, but now you can't take objectives because all your troops will be dead. And this is assuming your opponent doesn't put in skyfire and interceptor units to address what is a titan's weakness.

Skyfire/interceptor in enough quantities to deal with 3/4 flyers, plus bubble wrap for the titan, plus have decent scoring in an Eldar main army? So what, min Eldar + IG platoon with sabres? Besides, who cares if I expose 2 troop units to kill a 900 point unit when doing so nets me 3 VPs and total board control? Seems like a decent option to me.

Currently there is only 1 gargant with any destroyer weapons - the Transcendent C'tan. The problem is, he is actually quite slow with an 18" movement and also quite short-ranged with only a 16" template. Yeah, he may kill a couple of things that the opponent leaves out in front, but most experienced titan players will leave their titans in the back due to their superior range. Honestly, I feel bad. I actually own almost all the gargants out there (tyranids, chaos, c'tan) and I know they have no chance in Apoc now, not when we have a Warlord, several reavers and several warhounds and shadowswords in our Apoc gaming group.

You don't seem to have actually played new Apoc then. Any decent player of that would tell you that by turn 2, you can absolutely guarantee not only that the C'tan will be alive but it'll be in the enemies deployment (unless that's over 72" away). It's not even hard, you just use shield generators, blind barrages + translocational flight, no scatter monolith drops... there's tons of ways. You're talking to someone who plays in an area where one of the guys is trying to get the largest Titan collection in the world and has 9 warhounds, 4 reavers (one for each chaos god), 2 warlords and a WIP Emperor, as well as an Eldar player with 2 Revenants and a Phantom and a Tau player with a Manta and 2 Tigershark AX-1-0's. I know how deadly Str D is. I know how good Titans are and how to use them. I am telling you that the C'tan is at least on par with the weaker ones of these. You can feel bad all you want, but you're just wrong here. GCs are if anything better than SHs in current apoc, as although they die to Str D, you can easily stop Titans before they fire with some of the new formations/assets, plus they can repeatedly come back for 1 VP which bigger Titans cannot. Now, this isn't true in Escalation but really, a Revenant is a one trick pony. It shoots, it kills. That's great - when it goes first. If it doesn't, you can lose 900 points before it does anything.

Again, you can lose 900 points before it does ANYTHING to normal shooting. Tau can do it easily.

With a C'tan, this is ONLY true against other SHs/GCs which have Str D. That means if you hide it for the first 2/3 turns and kill the Titan (not too hard for Necrons who tailor for it and they have no reason not to) you gain a massive advantage. Hell, here's the really great thing - a C'tan with Seismic Assault and 3 Annihilation Barges next to it (aka every Necron Escalation army which will ever be made) has over a 75% chance to kill a Revenant in one turn. So, tell me, which is the best option to take to a tournament - the unit which you can hide and save easily or the Titan which requires first turn, not facing a flyer army and never getting unlucky?

Great batrep guys (is that one of those new battle-mats I see), thanks for sharing. As a TO for my local shop tournament, I like to see a lot of these things before I need to take action. Seeing as how facepalm-y the Revenant is w/ four S: D blasts, then, for right now, I am going to put the brakes on D weapons and only allow Super-heavies/gargantuans w/o D weapons. I want to see how things shake out through casual play, and then maybe make some rules changes for the tournament if need be.

Can't wait to see batreps with non-D super-heavies.

Eyjio wrote:

Spoiler:

 jy2 wrote:

I'm comparing apples (titans) to apples (titans) here. If you want to compare apples to oranges (regular units), then of course titans will have the advantage. They are designed to be tough to kill by conventional means. They used to be designed to withstand even punishment from super weapons - the Destroyer weapons - but the times have changed. Destroyer weapons in 6E Apoc has far exceeded the power level of those in 5E. Right now, most Gargants can only take at most 2 D-hits on average and then they are dead. Yes, the Transcendent C'tan is very good. However, no gargants nowadays can compete with the power of the D. In the age of Escalation, the Revenant is king. The only titan that stands a chance is the Harridan but even he can be grounded by conventional means nowadays (he couldn't before). In tournament play assuming they allow Escalation units, the Revenant is going to dominate all but necron flyer-spam and daemon FMC-spam. Any gargants you take is going to be rendered obsolete when going up against these types of Escalation armies. Yeah, they'll do great against any other army, even Escalation armies sans Destroyer weaponry, but they just can't hold a candle to the big D. You're just going to have to try to win it with the rest of the army and write off your gargant in the face of multiple destroyer shots.

... did you actually read what I wrote? Str D writes anything off. In a battle between two Revenants, the one which wins is the one with first turn. So what? What are you even trying to say? Str D is broken? I already said that. What you apparently missed is that the C'tan is good against everything. Revenants are not. Many armies, given first turn, can easily wipe a Revenant off the board at range. Tau can. Eldar can. Necrons can. Absolutely nothing BUT a Revenant has the guarantee to do that to the C'tan. Please stop repeatedly saying that gargantuans will be obsolete in the face of titans/mass str D when I know from experience that they are in absolutely no way rendered obsolete. What tend to actually happen is they get into chain combats so they can't even be hit or in the case of the C'tan, it hides so you can't even shoot it. You are just plain wrong here because, again, everything is wiped by mass Str D, but GCs are not wiped by conventional means whereas SHs easily can be. Once again, SHs are no more durable against str D proportionally points wise - up to 600 points, most GCs/SHs take 2, 600-1200 takes 3 and 1200+ takes 4+. I really don't know what else I can say - you've basically just told me that when you look at two units, the more durable one is less durable. How am I meant to react?

Mass haywire from necrons? You do realize that you are exposing your troops, right? You can risk killing his titan, but now you can't take objectives because all your troops will be dead. And this is assuming your opponent doesn't put in skyfire and interceptor units to address what is a titan's weakness.

Skyfire/interceptor in enough quantities to deal with 3/4 flyers, plus bubble wrap for the titan, plus have decent scoring in an Eldar main army? So what, min Eldar + IG platoon with sabres? Besides, who cares if I expose 2 troop units to kill a 900 point unit when doing so nets me 3 VPs and total board control? Seems like a decent option to me.

Currently there is only 1 gargant with any destroyer weapons - the Transcendent C'tan. The problem is, he is actually quite slow with an 18" movement and also quite short-ranged with only a 16" template. Yeah, he may kill a couple of things that the opponent leaves out in front, but most experienced titan players will leave their titans in the back due to their superior range. Honestly, I feel bad. I actually own almost all the gargants out there (tyranids, chaos, c'tan) and I know they have no chance in Apoc now, not when we have a Warlord, several reavers and several warhounds and shadowswords in our Apoc gaming group.

You don't seem to have actually played new Apoc then. Any decent player of that would tell you that by turn 2, you can absolutely guarantee not only that the C'tan will be alive but it'll be in the enemies deployment (unless that's over 72" away). It's not even hard, you just use shield generators, blind barrages + translocational flight, no scatter monolith drops... there's tons of ways. You're talking to someone who plays in an area where one of the guys is trying to get the largest Titan collection in the world and has 9 warhounds, 4 reavers (one for each chaos god), 2 warlords and a WIP Emperor, as well as an Eldar player with 2 Revenants and a Phantom and a Tau player with a Manta and 2 Tigershark AX-1-0's. I know how deadly Str D is. I know how good Titans are and how to use them. I am telling you that the C'tan is at least on par with the weaker ones of these. You can feel bad all you want, but you're just wrong here. GCs are if anything better than SHs in current apoc, as although they die to Str D, you can easily stop Titans before they fire with some of the new formations/assets, plus they can repeatedly come back for 1 VP which bigger Titans cannot. Now, this isn't true in Escalation but really, a Revenant is a one trick pony. It shoots, it kills. That's great - when it goes first. If it doesn't, you can lose 900 points before it does anything.

Again, you can lose 900 points before it does ANYTHING to normal shooting. Tau can do it easily.

With a C'tan, this is ONLY true against other SHs/GCs which have Str D. That means if you hide it for the first 2/3 turns and kill the Titan (not too hard for Necrons who tailor for it and they have no reason not to) you gain a massive advantage. Hell, here's the really great thing - a C'tan with Seismic Assault and 3 Annihilation Barges next to it (aka every Necron Escalation army which will ever be made) has over a 75% chance to kill a Revenant in one turn. So, tell me, which is the best option to take to a tournament - the unit which you can hide and save easily or the Titan which requires first turn, not facing a flyer army and never getting unlucky?

I think that we can just agree to disagree on this issue.

My background is large Apocalypse games where my opponents tend to bring lots of D-weapons. Back then, it was hard enough keeping my Gargants alive and that was when D-weapons only did 1W to gargants. Fast forward to current day Apoc where a shadowsword can potentially take out an entire 1000-pt hierophant bio-titan with 1 shot and you're going to have to forgive my doom-&-gloom prediction for gargants in modern day Apoc. And you're right, I haven't played the new Apoc yet.

Now we scale down to Escalation and the gargants become much, much more viable than they are in Apoc. Honestly, I am ecstatic about that. I really am. However, in tournament play that allows Escalation, you're going to be seeing a lot of the Revenants (damn eldar, as if they needed more help), especially from the more competitive players. You really think they are both just as durable, especially when 1 side has the advantage of Strength D firepower on their side? Yeah, the Revenant maybe slightly easier to kill by conventional shooting, but the firepower of the eldar army with the Revenant is probably 10x better than the firepower of a necron or tyranid army with a gargantuan. Necron firepower doesn't really begin until Turn 2 when their flyers come in. I don't just compare unit to unit directly. I look at the firepower of the entire army on the whole. And yeah, stating that gargants are obsolete may be somewhat of an over-statement, but I just don't see them doing all that much against an eldar army with a Revenant in it. That doesn't mean necrons can't win against Eldar in Escalation. They still can and if they go 2nd, they actually have a decent chance. However, the key against the space elves lies with their flyers, not with their gargantuan.

I'll try to set up a game between my necrons w/C'tan against eldar w/Revenant to show the people what I am talking about.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
Great batrep guys (is that one of those new battle-mats I see), thanks for sharing. As a TO for my local shop tournament, I like to see a lot of these things before I need to take action. Seeing as how facepalm-y the Revenant is w/ four S: D blasts, then, for right now, I am going to put the brakes on D weapons and only allow Super-heavies/gargantuans w/o D weapons. I want to see how things shake out through casual play, and then maybe make some rules changes for the tournament if need be.

Can't wait to see batreps with non-D super-heavies.

Frontline is going to come out with an Ork+stompa vs IG+baneblade videorep very soon (most likely on Monday). Look out for it.

This is the death of 40k. RIP

 jy2 wrote:

I'll try to set up a game between my necrons w/C'tan against eldar w/Revenant to show the people what I am talking about.

My group played a Carnage type game last week using all superheavies and gargantuan creatures. The Transcendant C'tan with his 6D6 Str 8 weapon blew the Revenant apart twice (we allowed one respawn per model) and pretty much dominated the game. They are small enough to take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and so can avoid being shot at, and then pop out and blast things with that weapon. Truly nasty.

"You're talking to someone who plays in an area where one of the guys is trying to get the largest Titan collection in the world and has 9 warhounds, 4 reavers (one for each chaos god), 2 warlords and a WIP Emperor, as well as an Eldar player with 2 Revenants and a Phantom and a Tau player with a Manta and 2 Tigershark AX-1-0's."

Sounds like there might be just a bit of a bias. Its great you've got a group that loves the really big stuff but really I don't think that's the norm.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Sounds like there might be just a bit of a bias. Its great you've got a group that loves the really big stuff but really I don't think that's the norm.

Oh but when people find out that seer council/ screamer star/ and draigo wing are no longer viable you might just start to see a shift. I play draigo wing but even I know others don't enjoy it that much. People might be slow to acquire these $400.00 toys but when they do, I hardly feel it's anyone's business to tell them they can't use them.

I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

 Lord_Mortis wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

I'll try to set up a game between my necrons w/C'tan against eldar w/Revenant to show the people what I am talking about.

My group played a Carnage type game last week using all superheavies and gargantuan creatures. The Transcendant C'tan with his 6D6 Str 8 weapon blew the Revenant apart twice (we allowed one respawn per model) and pretty much dominated the game. They are small enough to take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and so can avoid being shot at, and then pop out and blast things with that weapon. Truly nasty.

Wow, amazing. Necron must've rolled really great.

Let's see what the averages say, assuming the Revenant moves for the 4+ Holo-field saves.

6d6 shots, 21 shots on average, 14 hits (assuming BS4) vs AV12 = 2.33 glances + 4.67 pens. Holo-fields save 1/2 so 1 glance + 2.33 pens. That's 3 HP's plus whatever is rolled on the damage charts.

It is possible to kill a Revenant with the C'tan's shooting, but you've got to have some luck and roll 6's on the damage charts to kill it in 1 turn of shooting. In other words, the C'tan would have to roll very well to do so.

Interesting. I just may try out the 6D6 shots as opposed to the Wave of Withering though IMO, the WoW is the best armament for the C'tan.

Painnen wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Sounds like there might be just a bit of a bias. Its great you've got a group that loves the really big stuff but really I don't think that's the norm.

Oh but when people find out that seer council/ screamer star/ and draigo wing are no longer viable you might just start to see a shift. I play draigo wing but even I know others don't enjoy it that much. People might be slow to acquire these $400.00 toys but when they do, I hardly feel it's anyone's business to tell them they can't use them.

They can still use it in Escalation-sanctioned tourneys. Also, keep in mind that tourneys will evolve with their players. Tourneys may not allow them initially, but I can see this changing as people start to grow their collection(s) of super-heavies and as more people get used to seeing/playing against them.

My prediction is that the earliest tournaments will probably not allow them. 6 months from now, you may start to see some of the smaller tourneys allow limited Super-heavies. Probably a year from now, perhaps the larger tournaments will start to allow them. It's going to be a slow process but I think it will happen eventually. But to rush it and allow it so early will be a mistake IMO.

This should be an expansion rather than supplement. And also it clearly says: apocalypse didnt sell much, buy super heavies.
Like someone else wisely said, keep your apocalypse out of my 40k please. BTW jy2 you rock man.

jy2 does rock !

JY2 the transcendant c'tan is bs6

 jy2 wrote:

 Lord_Mortis wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

I'll try to set up a game between my necrons w/C'tan against eldar w/Revenant to show the people what I am talking about.

My group played a Carnage type game last week using all superheavies and gargantuan creatures. The Transcendant C'tan with his 6D6 Str 8 weapon blew the Revenant apart twice (we allowed one respawn per model) and pretty much dominated the game. They are small enough to take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and so can avoid being shot at, and then pop out and blast things with that weapon. Truly nasty.

Wow, amazing. Necron must've rolled really great.

Let's see what the averages say, assuming the Revenant moves for the 4+ Holo-field saves.

6d6 shots, 21 shots on average, 14 hits (assuming BS4) vs AV12 = 2.33 glances + 4.67 pens. Holo-fields save 1/2 so 1 glance + 2.33 pens. That's 3 HP's plus whatever is rolled on the damage charts.

It is possible to kill a Revenant with the C'tan's shooting, but you've got to have some luck and roll 6's on the damage charts to kill it in 1 turn of shooting. In other words, the C'tan would have to roll very well to do so.

Interesting. I just may try out the 6D6 shots as opposed to the Wave of Withering though IMO, the WoW is the best armament for the C'tan.

BS 6 makes a lot of difference... trancendants tend to have better stats than normals...

 jy2 wrote:

6d6 shots, 21 shots on average, 14 hits (assuming BS4) vs AV12 = 2.33 glances + 4.67 pens. Holo-fields save 1/2 so 1 glance + 2.33 pens. That's 3 HP's plus whatever is rolled on the damage charts.

Try BS 6. First time, the C'tan went first, and got to shoot the Revenant before it moved. Second time, Revenant had moved, but the C'tan got 27 shots out of 6D6. The BS 6 of the C'tan really makes a difference. And that was without re-rolling the misses due to having BS 6.

Ok ballistic skill aside yes the seismic assault is really good, and with an effective threat range of 66 inches with stride it can shoot the revenant wherever it is on a 6x4. So what happens when the revenant gets cover from a building (or a cheap bastion?, thats a 3+ cover) and still gets its holofield? Thats what i would do. The revenant is obviously too big to hide out of LOS on anything but the most wild terrain boards, but it's really easy to get it a 4+ from a two story ruin. And since its guns only need LOS and ignore all save mechanics it can just plunk down behind a tall building or that cheap bastion and fire away

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/p480x480/1425768_720475205336_109891661_n.jpg

In case you wanted to see a comparison

here's the picture thanatos was trying to share:



Also on the note of the C'tan, take Zahndrekh and give the guy Tank Hunter! Makes Seismic even better vs the titan. With tank hunter he should average something like 2.25 glances and 4.5 pens after holofields. So at least 6 hull points plus whatever you roll on the damage.

Put your first D shot into the bastion and EXPLODE it I guess

Also, for people wanting to ban models with D weapons, just keep in mind that some titans (ie Stompa, Lord of Skulls) have a D CCW that they can't get rid of, while the Rev can just swap it's D out. Any balance homerule would have to alter the nature of the D weapon and not flat out ban models that have them.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Put your first D shot into the bastion and EXPLODE it I guess

Also, for people wanting to ban models with D weapons, just keep in mind that some titans (ie Stompa, Lord of Skulls) have a D CCW that they can't get rid of, while the Rev can just swap it's D out. Any balance homerule would have to alter the nature of the D weapon and not flat out ban models that have them.

+1, just make it S10 ap1 instakill, problem solved

again the problem seems to be not the D weapon itself but the Revenant.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Put your first D shot into the bastion and EXPLODE it I guess

Also, for people wanting to ban models with D weapons, just keep in mind that some titans (ie Stompa, Lord of Skulls) have a D CCW that they can't get rid of, while the Rev can just swap it's D out. Any balance homerule would have to alter the nature of the D weapon and not flat out ban models that have them.

I think it's the ranged D-weapons that are the problem. A Stompa has to get up close and personal in order to use his close combat weapon, and will take some shooting hits on the way in, possibley even destroying it before it gets into combat. So perhaps it should be "no D-weapon shooting attacks in regular games" as a way to "balance" things out some. I'm all for superheavies and gargantuan creatures in regular games, but some things, such as D-weapons, should stay in Apocalypse where the mechanics of the game are different from regular games (such as things being destroyed by D-weapons being able to return to the game by spending points). Or if not a "ban" on shooty D-weapons in regular games, then at least permit invulnerable saves to be taken. Either way, it still makes the superheavy or gargantuan creature a major threat to the enemy.

I haven't finished reading Escalation, but the only issue to me seems to be D pieplates. Maybe D shooting in general, but definitely the pie plates.

It's like AP2 or Ignores cover or S10 - regular shots of it are ok but with all the pieplates that get it now the game has become a crazy shooting gallery that makes termies, cover troops, or T5 W2+ squads next to worthless.

I'm pissed that they took out the wrecking ball. D strength 2" strip of destruction extending 2d6 in any direction. Range 60" pie plates were fine but not this? feth you GW

I'm gonna field the Stompa with or without D anyway - the potential of getting first turn against screamers or seer and dropping an S10 AP1 7" blast on them is too good to pass up. Doing that once would be worth all the effort of building one.

Suddenly the new Riptide from Forge World does not seem so bad.

Maybe to keep tournaments balanced and an even chance for all who cannot afford/access SH/GCs ect then you revisit list submission for the time being unitl the dust settles and people can assess the impact. Nothing is perfect but just spitballing some ideas.

I'm not a TO or even experienced in with SH/GCs but the arguments for and against escalation seem sound. Maybe a soultion for tournament play could be something as simple as allowing escalation and SH/GC ect with the following caveat (or something similar):

1. Each player who brings a SH/GC in their army can brings 2 lists. The first is a GC/SH without D weapons and their primary list which they will use for all games.

2. The second list is their SH/GC with a D weapon (if they choose to take a D weapon) which they can only use if the are playing against an opponent who also has a SH/GC with a second list and a D weapon.

3. The second list (with D weapon) can only drop units or wargear out of their origional list to make room for the D weapon. No adding or changing other wargear, no adding/swapping/changing additional units or add on's anywhere else. Simply drop as many units or wargear items as you need to make room for the D weapon.

Example:

I am playing SM with a Thunderhawk. List 1 has no D on the Thunderhawk, list 2 has D on my Thunderhawk (in list 2 I had to drop a unit/wargear items of whatever to afford the D upgrade but otherwise my list remains unchanged).

a) If on round 1 I play against an army without a SH/GC then we play the game as normal and I use my first list that doesn't have any D.
b) If on round 1 I play against another SH/GC army that doesn't have a second list with any D then we play as normal and I use my first list that doesn't have any D.
c) If on round 1 I play against another SH/GC army that has a second list that includes D then we both play our lists with D in it.

That seems even and fair to me whilst also including the new rules until people get a chance to figure out the D!

I don't know how you deal with SH/GC's that have default D weapons that cannot be swapped.. Thoughts from more experienced TO/Apoc players?

What came to mind is simply upping the points?

Doesn't totally address the issue of haves and have nots, but more toys and more redundancy = better ability for non titan lists to deal with titans.

Dunno if a second force org would give a second goddamn superheavy though

Anything that can one shot a seer council/ screamer star/ and draigo wing has my vote...

Besides I believe in all the rules...

I'm with allowing it. Full tilt. If GW puts out rules that reintroduce the alpha strike donkey stomp tournament lists, so be it. 2+ re roll saves will disappear and you'll see haywire, meltas, and reserve heavy lists appear to balance vs the super heavies. Add in void shield terrain and vortex missile silos (which are 1/4 the price of that revenant and about 60% it's point cost) and the meta simply shifts once more.

The (tournament) game will always be dominated by power hungry combo abusers - O'vesa star, seer star, screamerstar, super heavy, 5th ed paladins and nob bikers. Money is a straw man argument -- 4 riptides costs $340. Until now that seemed like a broken list.

Open the floodgates and let the super cutthroat players drown in dice. The rest of us will continue to have fun games where we discuss what is and isn't appropriate for a friendly game before we set our models on the table.