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 Silverthorne wrote:
@ Sparks Havelock--

Some Astartes chapters are mentioned as having former space-hulks as fortress monasteries or chapter assets, so I think that a total clearing of a hulk does occasionally occur, although as you say, usually their incursions are more limited. Also I have read several places about very powerful Imperial Navy ships that were formerly a part of a space hulk. I suppose it's possible the Space Marines salvaged it and removed it before the hulk was secure, but it seems more likely they made a big (entire chapter, probably) effort to cleanse the hulk, then parted it out.

I wonder how that works--legally, in the Imperium. Say my Mentor Legion clear a space hulk that includes 3-4 BB class warships? Do I have to turn them over to the Navy / Mechanicus? Or do they become part of my chapter fleet, even though they are clearly Navy-style, not Astartes style ships?

I assume they turn them over, but there is some sort of exchange, either for restricted STCs (like the Fire Eagle) if it's going to the Mechanicus or some pledge of future support (from a Segmentus Fleet).

I don't think the Astartes care much for laws or bureaucracy. If they would want that ship they salvaged, they would probably just take it, unless the Navy/Mechanicus offered something more valuable in return.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I was more referring to the 'dull' part. Now, it is down to personal taste of course, but I cannot personally see how anyone could find anything more dull than the DKoK. :S

I don't see anything interesting about 'super-human's'. As for the Death Korps, well I would put it down to my personal interest in the Great War & how that has been translated into the Death Korps. Unlike the Space Marines who can not feel fear, the Death Korps overcome that obstacle through a mixture of unwavering bravery, courage & religious zealotry - it's one of the reasons why the Death Korps do not issue medals for bravery as it's expected rather than the exception. I just prefer humans to super-humans.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Space Marines are incredibly useful as both a means of Imperial propaganda (they are 'sons', well 'grandsons' I suppose, of the Emperor) and as a razor sharp scalpel on the surgery table of warfare. They work best when working alongside the Guard, when they can strike into enemy territory, take and hold crucial locations and wait until the Guard come to relieve them or complete their objectives and withdraw.

Space Marines should rarely, if ever, be employed in the front line unless there is no other choice. One reason is that a single Marine takes an incredibly long time to create - a process which can kill the aspiring Astartes if their body refuses to accept any or the implants during the years of conditioning and biological changes to their body. Another reason is that they're very expensive in terms of resources for both their armour (and it's subsystems) and their weaponry.

If one of these Marines, in his expensive armour & wielding his expensive boltgun, is on the front line of the battlefield and gets hit by a shell that was stamped out with others in their tens of thousands within some manufactorum - what a waste of years of biological changes, conditioning & training, not to mention all of those resources used to create, arm & equip that Astartes.

Astartes are excellent force multiplyers - a single Astartes in the right place can make a massive difference to any given situation thanks to their capabilites & the fame they have.

There are things I really do not like about the Astartes, and frankly I find them dull as hell, but they've a place in the Imperium and are a useful tool, but that's all they are, a tool.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Even then they're completely critical in their small numbers. The Astartes are the force preventing the Imperium from collapsing/being consumed simultaneously by its foes and the archenemy, lest GW let us forget it.

At a ratio of 1 Astartes : 1 Planet in the Imperium, I repudiate any such notion that the Astartes, in their tiny numbers, are preventing the Imperium from collapsing. The huge masses of the Imperial Guard and colossal forces of the Imperial Navy do that. The Imperium could potentially survive without the Astartes, but it could not survive in any way shape or form without the Imperial Guard/Navy. Give the regular humans a break - the Astartes are not the be-all, end-all. The bravery of the Guardsmen facing up to threats & forces that consist of their worst nightmares, are individually more powerful, or have an advantage of technology, should be celebrated, not all of the glory given to the Astartes.

Except they are critical. Were it not for Astartes- Chaos would have destroyed the Imperium several times over (even some cases where it was literally not possible for Guardsmen to do anything, such in the case of Doubtworm), and Xenos such as the Tyranids would have likely swamped over a sector and plunged critical areas into a communication blackout- letting other things pool in.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I was more referring to the 'dull' part. Now, it is down to personal taste of course, but I cannot personally see how anyone could find anything more dull than the DKoK. :S

I don't see anything interesting about 'super-human's'. As for the Death Korps, well I would put it down to my personal interest in the Great War & how that has been translated into the Death Korps. Unlike the Space Marines who can not feel fear, the Death Korps overcome that obstacle through a mixture of unwavering bravery, courage & religious zealotry - it's one of the reasons why the Death Korps do not issue medals for bravery as it's expected rather than the exception. I just prefer humans to super-humans.

Marines very a lot, Marines Malevolent and Salamanders are two very different cups of tea, but at least a good amount of Marines have more personality despite their lack of fear.

To quote myself from the retcon thread:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
No, honestly I would not retcon DKoK. Others like them and I respect that. But they are my least favourite army in the 40K setting. They are WW1 soldiers in space. Whoop-dee-fething-do. Usually Guardsmen are OK with me because I adore the 'normal humans in a horrifying galaxy that get slaughtered but sometimes still win through due to honest human spirit' but DKoK removes that by having them being hot-housed soulless faceless characterless pointless uninteresting mind-boggingly bland soldiers. Especially the characterlessness bothers me. Korpsman #34 and #7465823658 are 100% identical for all intents and purposes. They fight on because of penance/brainwashing/most likely both (Would not surprise me if there is a bit of gene manipulation there as well), and... That's it. Even Oldcrons, hell, even Tyranids seem very deep in comparison. They at least blended soullessness with some mystery and exoticness. The Korps have nothing.

No, I would not retcon them even if I was in charge at GW, since I would not want to take them away from their fans. But if they were removed not a single tear would be shed on my part.

Oh, and I certainly like their appearance. No doubt about that. But their fluff makes me cringe.

People are free to only like humans, but I disagree with them. If I want to read about humans there are tons of other settings. But no other setting has actual Space Marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
(even some cases where it was literally not possible for Guardsmen to do anything, such in the case of Doubtworm)

Sorry, but that's awful fluff. Space marines are magically immune because they have no doubt? I guess we'll just pretend that space marines don't have that nasty habit of falling to chaos? Because you can't really have both of those at the same time.

and Xenos such as the Tyranids would have likely swamped over a sector and plunged critical areas into a communication blackout- letting other things pool in.

Nonsense. Space marines are worthless against Tyranids because they don't have the numbers to be relevant. A squad of marines isn't going to stop a swarm of millions of Tyranids, and it certainly won't stop the swarm from going elsewhere and eating everything around those few marines. The solution to Tyranids is nuclear weapons, used early and often. And for that you want the sheer numbers of the IG and Imperial Navy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
(even some cases where it was literally not possible for Guardsmen to do anything, such in the case of Doubtworm)

Sorry, but that's awful fluff. Space marines are magically immune because they have no doubt? I guess we'll just pretend that space marines don't have that nasty habit of falling to chaos? Because you can't really have both of those at the same time.

and Xenos such as the Tyranids would have likely swamped over a sector and plunged critical areas into a communication blackout- letting other things pool in.

Nonsense. Space marines are worthless against Tyranids because they don't have the numbers to be relevant. A squad of marines isn't going to stop a swarm of millions of Tyranids, and it certainly won't stop the swarm from going elsewhere and eating everything around those few marines. The solution to Tyranids is nuclear weapons, used early and often. And for that you want the sheer numbers of the IG and Imperial Navy.

Doubtworm functions by one having doubt in the GEOM. Especially the Black Dragons being zealously devoted to the Emperor, were immune to it for knowing that the Emperor actually exists for them being literally bred from him. And even then, one group of the Black Dragon's second company fell to Chaos due to lacking any mutations or having very few of them, resulting from them being ostracized and doubting the righteousness of the Black Dragons being a necessary evil of the Emperor. Although this more resulted from the manipulation of a powerful Chaos Psyker, doubtworm may have played a part.

But were it not for the Astartes- a gigantic and near-invincible planet grinder that tanked a cyclonic torpedo thanks to being made of pure admantanium would have mulched its way through Terra.

Then there's numerous other instances being the only thing standing between the Imperium and destruction, because their point. And no matter how much you want to rant against it- it's not going to change considering's it's a larger portion of what W40K is actually about. It's like walking into one of the mainstream Marvel comics and whining about how X superhero didn't save the day, the cops did despite them being chucked around like ragdolls and turned into mulch and the superhero is the only reason why anything is intact in the first place.


This isn't awful fluff. This has been W40K since nearly day one, as Space Marines are the posterboy of the franchise and the majority of the fluff is focused on them. While you're quite welcome to construct your own strange and frankly delusional view of the fluff that doesn't bare any resemblance- you're probably best suited finding a new franchise. Now, seeing that you both hate the game and the fluff, may I also ask why are you even here?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Doubtworm functions by one having doubt in the GEOM.

Which marines are capable of having. It's pure marine propaganda to say that marines have absolute faith in the emperor (despite falling to chaos), but nobody else can have that same absolute certainty. Which makes sense in-universe, and the doubtworm is a wonderful propaganda story, but you shouldn't take that kind of thing as literal truth.

Then there's numerous other instances being the only thing standing between the Imperium and destruction

No, there's numerous instances of marine propaganda where a GW author pretends that WMDs don't exist and that conventional artillery/air strikes/etc are about as effective as throwing frag grenades at something.

In-universe we can explain this as the Imperium's propaganda turning a minor and irrelevant skirmish involving marines into an epic turning point in the war (after all, who is ever going to know the truth?) while the IG and navy did all the real fighting.

it's not going to change considering's it's a larger portion of what W40K is actually about

Of course it's what the setting is about. The Imperium is an oppressive theocracy based on blind faith in utter idiocy, and space marines are its saints and martyrs. Space marine hero worship is just one more aspect of why the Imperium sucks, and why the best it can do is slow the inevitable death of humanity. None of this depends on space marines being useful beyond their propaganda role.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Doubtworm functions by one having doubt in the GEOM.

Which marines are capable of having. It's pure marine propaganda to say that marines have absolute faith in the emperor (despite falling to chaos), but nobody else can have that same absolute certainty. Which makes sense in-universe, and the doubtworm is a wonderful propaganda story, but you shouldn't take that kind of thing as literal truth.

Then there's numerous other instances being the only thing standing between the Imperium and destruction

No, there's numerous instances of marine propaganda where a GW author pretends that WMDs don't exist and that conventional artillery/air strikes/etc are about as effective as throwing frag grenades at something.

In-universe we can explain this as the Imperium's propaganda turning a minor and irrelevant skirmish involving marines into an epic turning point in the war (after all, who is ever going to know the truth?) while the IG and navy did all the real fighting.

it's not going to change considering's it's a larger portion of what W40K is actually about

Of course it's what the setting is about. The Imperium is an oppressive theocracy based on blind faith in utter idiocy, and space marines are its saints and martyrs. Space marine hero worship is just one more aspect of why the Imperium sucks, and why the best it can do is slow the inevitable death of humanity. None of this depends on space marines being useful beyond their propaganda role.

So you're so completely dissatisfied with W40K and think that the guard are such powerful special forces when they're simply a meatgrinder, that goes against literally all established canon and fluff, that you'd attempt to headcanon everything being propaganda despite nothing showing it to be such? Again I ask why the hell are you even here. You clearly don't like anything in W40K, everything I've seen has contributed absolutely nothing, and simply annoy people while trying to advertise your headcanon that goes against everything. So again, what is it exactly that you even do here besides simply complain about how GW clearly doesn't agree with any of your ideas of what W40K 'should' be? Because I'm not even going to engage in a debate if you're simply going to handwave all evidence in the contrary because it dares to disagree with your precious headcanon.

 Peregrine wrote:
and the doubtworm is a wonderful propaganda story

Doubtful. It's from a BL novel, The Death of Antagonis. Said Doubtworm ultimately succeeds in its goal despite the best efforts of the Marines, eventually growing larger than whole continents and needing the Imperial planet it was on to recieve Exterminatus. Not really great propaganda.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Although this more resulted from the manipulation of a powerful Chaos Psyker, doubtworm may have played a part.

Probably not. If he'd at all been influenced by the doubtworm, he would've ended up a drooling zombie like all of its other victims.

Definitely not. As badass as the IG are, they can't charge through hordes of enemies and expect to survive. The SM can do that with no problem.
Just because they are super human doesn't mean they walk around with a godmode cheat activated.
Also, getting rid of the SM would cripple one of the biggest traits of 40K. Variety. There is so much for everyone, especially when it comes to SM chapters.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Definitely not. As badass as the IG are, they can't charge through hordes of enemies and expect to survive. The SM can do that with no problem.
Just because they are super human doesn't mean they walk around with a godmode cheat activated.
Also, getting rid of the SM would cripple one of the biggest traits of 40K. Variety. There is so much for everyone, especially when it comes to SM chapters.

Really? Then why is everyone complaining that their Assault Marine armies are dead?

The very existence of Space Marines is the most glaring plot armor in all of 40k.
By all sound reason, they would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Approximately 1,000,000 of them spread throughout the entire galaxy, and their job is to go fight? It's not hard for any race to outthink or outclass them. Combine that with their inferior numbers and there's simply no accounting for how they've survived the past 10,000 years.

 Wyzilla wrote:
So you're so completely dissatisfied with W40K and think that the guard are such powerful special forces when they're simply a meatgrinder

You know, it's hilarious that you rant about "headcanon" so much but then post absurd headcanon of your own. IG are NOT just meatgrinders. The actual canon is full of elite IG units: Elysian drop troops, storm troopers (not technically IG, but still basic humans), Kasrkin, etc. Even the DKoK, the ultimate attrition army, have the elite grenadiers.

And of course the solution in 40k rarely involves special forces anyway. If the Tyranids have started consuming a city you don't send in a handful of marines to challenge the biggest monster in hand to hand combat, you drop a nuke on the whole mess and move on. Marines as practical weapons are just an unfortunate consequence of 40k's epic scale and GW's refusal to make marines fit into it. When you have fights between millions of troops on millions of different worlds the mere handful of space marines in the entire galaxy might as well not even exist.

that goes against literally all established canon and fluff

That depends on whether or not you remember that the fiction in 40k is full of blatant lies, exaggerated myths, etc, according to the authors. The most sensible way to interpret the marine stories is that their actual performance is roughly equivalent to what we see on the tabletop (decent elite infantry, but not that much better than anyone else) and their greatest heroic actions are really just propaganda myths invented to support their role as religious icons.

You clearly don't like anything in W40K

You clearly don't understand the difference between "not liking 40k" and "disagreeing with your interpretation of it". Yes, space marines are stupid, but that's the whole point. The fundamental defining truth of the setting is that everything the Imperium does is incredibly stupid and cruel and wasteful, but this obscenity is the only hope for humanity to last just a few more miserable days.

For example, titans are stupid, and anyone trying to justify them as a practical weapon has no clue about science or engineering. So yes, if someone tries to justify them on a forum I'm going to say that they're wrong. But I still enjoy them in the 40k setting because their whole purpose is to be idiotic walking shrines to the corpse-god, giant monuments to the Imperium's appalling ignorance of science and engineering. Space marines are the same: they're stupid from a practical perspective, but the Imperium keeps them because the Imperium needs its saints and martyrs.

So again, what is it exactly that you even do here besides simply complain about how GW clearly doesn't agree with any of your ideas of what W40K 'should' be?

Actually GW agrees with me pretty well on this. Every time my Basilisk splatters a marine squad across the scenery it's a nice little reminder of how silly marine fanboys are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Also, getting rid of the SM would cripple one of the biggest traits of 40K. Variety. There is so much for everyone, especially when it comes to SM chapters.

Not really. In fact marines are the biggest killer of variety in 40k. Everything is dedicated to keeping all those different marine armies and we never get interesting variant armies for anyone else. There's lots of potential for different IG regiments, proper Farsight Tau, etc. But we'll probably never see any of that potential because GW has decided that marines are supposed to be the focus of the game and everyone else is just the supporting cast for the marines to kill.

I would think that some fans show their like for the setting by picking it apart. If someone really didn't like the setting then they wouldn't be caring so much about it.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Definitely not. As badass as the IG are, they can't charge through hordes of enemies and expect to survive. The SM can do that with no problem.
Just because they are super human doesn't mean they walk around with a godmode cheat activated.
Also, getting rid of the SM would cripple one of the biggest traits of 40K. Variety. There is so much for everyone, especially when it comes to SM chapters.

Really? Then why is everyone complaining that their Assault Marine armies are dead?

Because in-game stats, especially things like points cost, =/= lore.

I have said this before, and I will repeat it again; if Marines had been as weak as they are in the game, they would have been disbanded ages ago, propaganda or not. The massive resources they require would be too much compared to the minor force concentration advantage they would have if that is true.

The GK Codex speaks of how some Knights dealt with overwhelming Daemon hordes by being surrounded and then calling down an orbital bombardment on themselves, which their Power Armour could resist but the Daemons could not. Try that in-game!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Actually GW agrees with me pretty well on this. Every time my Basilisk splatters a marine squad across the scenery it's a nice little reminder of how silly marine fanboys are.

Nice ad hominem.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Because in-game stats, especially things like points cost, =/= lore.

Why not?

I have said this before, and I will repeat it again; if Marines had been as weak as they are in the game, they would have been disbanded ages ago, propaganda or not. The massive resources they require would be too much compared to the minor force concentration advantage they would have if that is true.

Again, the Imperium is a bunch of ignorant and delusional religious zealots. Why are there titans? Because they are walking religious icons and the Imperium doesn't understand the science and engineering required to realize that titans are stupid and design a better weapon. Why doesn't the LRBT have a suspension of any kind (an incredibly stupid design flaw)? Because the Imperium doesn't know how to do anything but mindlessly follow the corrupted original design for the LRBT. Why are there space marines? Because the god-emperor said to have space marines, and practical use of limited resources is heresy. As long as space marines continue to have their role as the Imperium's saints and martyrs the Imperium will continue to make more space marines, no matter how ineffective and wasteful they may be in real combat.

The GK Codex speaks of how some Knights dealt with overwhelming Daemon hordes by being surrounded and then calling down an orbital bombardment on themselves, which their Power Armour could resist but the Daemons could not. Try that in-game!

Easily. GK have an orbital bombardment weapon that does not penetrate power armor. Since demons only have a (fairly weak) invulnerable save the result of hitting both sides with one would be many more demon casualties than GK casualties. The obvious explanation here is that since there were friendly units to worry about the orbital bombardment used light anti-infantry weapons instead of the ship's continent-destroying main weapons.

Don't forget, if we are using tabletop as any indication, most artillery and even nuclear weapons are deployed right in the face of the enemy so not entirely sure if it is best to use it as your one and only example (and from what I've read of the fluff, it's usually, they go in, 99% of the gk die but steal it up or just seal up a minor outbreak and gone).

Also, they entirely wiped out all the daemons with an orbital bombardment. Thing is, daemons are diverse, many, varied, and unreliable and even on the table 1/3rd would survive it unharmed)

If you keep using propaganda and stupidity as an argument for why the tabletop rules could be true, explain the GK.

With their recruitment methods and the massive casualties they suffer in the tabletop game, they would have gone extinct within years of their founding, even if they were founded at full strength.

Propaganda is not an argument here since everyone who knows of their existence is killed.

Propaganda and stupidity are fine in your own IG-centred mental picture of 40K, but please do not force it down the throats of others when the contrary has been proven to be true numerous times.

It is not about how efficient it is to keep the Space Marines despite their supposed uselessness. It is about the fact that they would be non-existent by now if they were that useless, since they have such harsh and careful recruitment regimes and make use of such rare and special equipment.

As a side note to the entire thread, pointing out a source as 'bad writing' still does not make it less of a source. Everything that you prove by saying that is that you dislike that part of the setting, not that said source is any less part of it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Again, the Imperium is a bunch of ignorant and delusional religious zealots.

The Imperium made a good decision in keeping the Space Marines, seeing as so powerful warriors can tip the balance of many a battle despite their high resource cost.

See, I can make biased statements too. Mine is supported by lots of fluff, the computer games and various other stuff, yours is supported by most gameplay, some fluff, and a few other things. Why is your statement more legit, now again?

Imperial Guard aren't actually humans, that's propaganda, they're brain damaged shaved monkey clones armed with rolled up newspapers.
Eldar are just the Kellogg's Rice Krispies mascots of the future, everything else is just propaganda to make the cereal trendy.
Tyranids are actually fluffy and an endangered species, clinging to life on the melting ice caps of the planet Earth 2, the whole intergalactic scourge thing is just propaganda from snow mining companies.
Necrons actually decayed to rust eons ago if they ever existed at all, the archaeological society made them up to stop people trespassing in their dig sites and ruining their finds.
Chaos is just one of those kooky new age magic crystal religions that has been demonized by hardline Emperortheists.
Orks are really pink and only look sorta green if you squint on a Sunday afternoon.

Propaganda is fun for everyone.

 Archonate wrote:
The very existence of Space Marines is the most glaring plot armor in all of 40k.
By all sound reason, they would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Approximately 1,000,000 of them spread throughout the entire galaxy, and their job is to go fight? It's not hard for any race to outthink or outclass them. Combine that with their inferior numbers and there's simply no accounting for how they've survived the past 10,000 years.

The very existence of the IoM is the most glaring plot armor in all of 40k.
By all sound reason, the IG would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 weak, easily corruptible soldiers spread throughout the entire galaxy, and their job is to go fight? It's not hard for any race to outthink or outclass them. Combine that with their inferior numbers compared to the Deamons, Tyranids and Orks and there's simply no accounting for how they've survived the past 10,000 years.


I fixed it for you.
The entire existence of the IoM is due to plot armour.
Without plot armour the IoM would have been eaten by Deamons/Tyranids/Orks/Necrons
Not to mention the survival of the Tau and Eldar which is even more 'glaring' plot armour than the survival of the SM.

Without plot armour we would have no fiction, so everyone, be grateful for it rather than hate it.

Let dem hang dey helmets, der's nuffink more useless than round nobz. Dey don't like to scrap for the thrill of da waaagh, dey don't put dey necks on da line like da boyz. Even da humies iz more keen to get in da fray, an dey bring better gubbins for da mekaniaks. Da Round Nobz had dey time, to hold up da round table, but now it's time for da boyz to chop down da legz and gobble up da platters an don't finish chomping until we can gnaw on da teef of da dead puppet in da shiny throne. After wards when my belly rumbles for waaagh we dine on da warp itself an laugh in da face of what dem warped round nobz call godz, cause Gork an Mork is da best and dem chaosy godz iz nuffink but pests.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The very existence of the IoM is the most glaring plot armor in all of 40k.
By all sound reason, the IG would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 weak, easily corruptible soldiers spread throughout the entire galaxy, and their job is to go fight? It's not hard for any race to outthink or outclass them. Combine that with their inferior numbers compared to the Deamons, Tyranids and Orks and there's simply no accounting for how they've survived the past 10,000 years.
.

When was the last time half the IG fell to Chaos again?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The very existence of the IoM is the most glaring plot armor in all of 40k.
By all sound reason, the IG would have gone extinct a long time ago.
Approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 weak, easily corruptible soldiers spread throughout the entire galaxy, and their job is to go fight? It's not hard for any race to outthink or outclass them. Combine that with their inferior numbers compared to the Deamons, Tyranids and Orks and there's simply no accounting for how they've survived the past 10,000 years.
.

When was the last time half the IG fell to Chaos again?

The Horus Heresy, along with the Astartes, Mechanicum, Navy and pretty much half of the entire Imperium falling to Chaos.
In general, IG regiments fall to Chaos much easier than SM chapters do.

It was a third of the Imperial Army, not the guard, by the way.

Technically it was only about a third of the marines that fell to Chaos too. They had to cull their loyalists from the ranks, after all.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It was a third of the Imperial Army, not the guard, by the way.

Say hello to the Lost and the Damned. IG fall so often so they don't even make a big fuss about it like when a Chapter falls.

They don't fall that often, and it certainly doesn't cause as much trouble as when SM do it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention the survival of the Tau and Eldar which is even more 'glaring' plot armour than the survival of the SM.

Neither of those races has plot armor more glaring than that of SMs. Considering that if all 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy banded together to attack an Eldar Craftworld, or a Tau Sept world, the SMs would be so ridiculously outnumbered and outmaneuvered, they'd be pounded into extinction.

 Archonate wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention the survival of the Tau and Eldar which is even more 'glaring' plot armour than the survival of the SM.

Neither of those races has plot armor more glaring than that of SMs. Considering that if all 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy banded together to attack an Eldar Craftworld, or a Tau Sept world, the SMs would be so ridiculously outnumbered and outmaneuvered, they'd be pounded into extinction.

What are you on about? The Invaders chapter invaded the Idharae craft world single-handedly and although they took heavy casualties reduced it to rubble. Please don't make statements with nothing to back up your claims.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
If you keep using propaganda and stupidity as an argument for why the tabletop rules could be true, explain the GK.

Religious zealots who exist because the ignorant theocracy wants to have its holy warriors, and is willing to make any necessary sacrifices to keep them.

Propaganda and stupidity are fine in your own IG-centred mental picture of 40K, but please do not force it down the throats of others when the contrary has been proven to be true numerous times.

Err, what? Did you somehow miss the entire point of the setting, that the Imperium is stupid in pretty much every possible way? This isn't just some random bit of fluff trivia, it's the fundamental defining attribute of the Imperium. It's an obscene combination of unimaginable cruelty and appalling ignorance, and yet this obscenity is the only hope for humanity surviving a few more miserable days before its inevitable end. Likewise for propaganda, even the authors of the fiction you're talking about openly state that 40k's fluff is full of exaggerated myths, propaganda, etc. We see the universe primarily through the eyes of the Imperium, and that means we also see the Imperium's blatant distortion of the truth.

It is about the fact that they would be non-existent by now if they were that useless, since they have such harsh and careful recruitment regimes and make use of such rare and special equipment.

Unless you have an oppressive theocracy that will gladly dedicate entire planets (with billions of people) to a life of misery so that they can keep a single chapter of their sacred warrior monks around, simply because that is what god said to do. This is not the real world where failure and inefficiency are properly dealt with. If god says to have space marines, then there will be space marines no matter how much of a spectacular waste of resources they are.

As a side note to the entire thread, pointing out a source as 'bad writing' still does not make it less of a source. Everything that you prove by saying that is that you dislike that part of the setting, not that said source is any less part of it.

It's a source, and as "official" as anything in 40k's blatantly contradictory canon. My point is that the source makes absurd claims about the purity of space marines that directly contradict well-established elements of the fluff. Space marines can not be simultaneously immune to doubt simply because they are space marines and able to fall to the lure of chaos. It's kind of like the idiotic GK fluff where even basic GK are absolutely 100% immune to chaos corruption, and a few pages later there are special super-elite GK that are even more immune to chaos corruption. It just doesn't make sense.

The Imperium made a good decision in keeping the Space Marines, seeing as so powerful warriors can tip the balance of many a battle despite their high resource cost.

Except they can't. Look at the numbers involved and the absurdity is obvious. Space marines simply can't make a difference because there aren't enough of them. When you have battles involving millions of troops on each side a handful of space marines aren't going to have any meaningful effect on the final outcome. Wars are won by logistics and consistent success on the battlefield, not by a squad of heroes fighting one small skirmish.

And of course even if a space marine force manages to win the war on one planet they have failed to win thousands of other wars happening at the same time because there just aren't enough marines to be everywhere at once. Their net effect on the 40k universe is pretty much nonexistent in practical terms. In fact, their greatest contribution to the Imperium is probably the fact that those thousands of other wars will have the morale boost of knowing that every minute the IG and PDF hold off the inevitable end is one more minute for a miracle to happen and the space marines to arrive.

Mine is supported by lots of fluff, the computer games and various other stuff, yours is supported by most gameplay, some fluff, and a few other things.

Mine is also supported by the fluff, once you realize that most of the fluff is seen through the eyes of the Imperium and subject to its biases and deliberate distortion of the truth.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Not to mention the survival of the Tau

At least the Tau have a reason to exist. They're symbolic of the countless younger races in the galaxy, just all combined into a single line of models. You could kill off the Tau, but then you'd just have to invent another army to take their place.