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 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

I'm going to get flak for this, so I'll get me Brodie helmet out.

I love the history of the Great War, and I would love the Death Korp, visually I do, but, personally, I hate their fluff.

I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

One of the points of the Imperial Guard, I feel, is that they're human, and you can relate to them as human beings, but the Death Korp might as well be servitors.

Change the Korp to human beings, and they'd be my favorite regiment.

Can't say I agree with that. If they were human they wouldn't be the Death Korps anymore. They would be Cadians dressed up like World War 1 servitors.

 Tower75 wrote:
I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

Thing is, how do you think those poor men in the Great War, sat in trenches for several months* (even years for some of the poor fellows), felt? Shelled routinely, their friends & comrades being killed off around them, eating often cold rations from a tin whilst living in conditions that could be said to resemble an open sewer, in all weathers, potentially with their feet infected with trenchrot and covered in lice, waiting for that moment when someone tells them to climb up those ladders and charge towards rifles and machineguns, effectively just waiting for their turn to be wounded or killed. The inspiration for the bits you've listed, like everything from the Death Korps, come from reality.

*Including time spent away from the lines trying to get some rest before going back.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:
I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

Thing is, how do you think those poor men in the Great War, sat in trenches for several months* (even years for some of the poor fellows), felt? Shelled routinely, their friends & comrades being killed off around them, eating often cold rations from a tin whilst living in conditions that could be said to resemble an open sewer, in all weathers, potentially with their feet infected with trenchrot and covered in lice, waiting for that moment when someone tells them to climb up those ladders and charge towards rifles and machineguns, effectively just waiting for their turn to be wounded or killed. The inspiration for the bits you've listed, like everything from the Death Korps, come from reality.

*Including time spent away from the lines trying to get some rest before going back.

They are humans who have dedicated themselves to a cause they felt great shame over. Willing to do everything in name of penance to the Imperium because of the betrayal. If they weren't human it wouldn't be as effective because if they were just Servitors the impact would be lost when you understand these people have given up everything, from their emotions to even their identity to serve in eternal servitude, to live and die on the battlefield for the Emperor.

Yes I know all of that (although it's less them choosing to dedicate themselves as being raised through propaganda to see that their only purpose in life is to pay their small part of the blood debt Krieg 'owes' to the Imperium for the past betrayal), I was talking about the inspiration for everything Tower75 listed that he didn't like about the Death Korps and I was pointing out where the inspiration came from.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Yes I know all of that (although it's less them choosing to dedicate themselves as being raised through propaganda to see that their only purpose in life is to pay their small part of the blood debt Krieg 'owes' to the Imperium for the past betrayal), I was talking about the inspiration for everything Tower75 listed that he didn't like about the Death Korps and I was pointing out where the inspiration came from.

I had meant to quote him, my mistake.

Ah fair enough, no worries chap

squidhills wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

By that logic, Eldar and IoM are also Tomb Kings. They both had a powerful empire, that they lost most of due to some great disaster and seek to one day get their old glory back.

Well, the Eldar and IOM don't have Scarabs and bodies that just look like skeletons or giant pyramids.

 Wilytank wrote:
Well, the Eldar and IOM don't have Scarabs and bodies that just look like skeletons or giant pyramids.

They had those before the retcon though.

I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

Blame the writer, not the faction.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

Indeed.
Extra points when they use mainly close combat weapons.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

This. I can suffer it in rulebooks as matter of propaganda, but in novels, its just case to me to close it and resell to another poor soul.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

Blame the writer, not the faction.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

Indeed.
Extra points when they use mainly close combat weapons.

Both of these are 2 things that really need to be fixed. I would like Space Marines much more if they were written with the rules in mind. And GK? Well GK do what GK are known to do...

What if they re-wrote the Codices to bring the SM in line with their fluff? o_0

 Psienesis wrote:
What if they re-wrote the Codices to bring the SM in line with their fluff? o_0

Well I mean there already is a HUGE inconsistency in Space Marines strength. In the Cron and Ork codexs they go down fairly quickly. But in C:SM they say that only 7 marines die at Black Reach (out of the whole company, fighting an entire waaagh) but the entire waaaaagh is destroyed. Just inflate their chapter numbers a bit and make their casualties realistic.

No, honestly I would not retcon DKoK. Others like them and I respect that. But they are my least favourite army in the 40K setting. They are WW1 soldiers in space. Whoop-dee-fething-do. Usually Guardsmen are OK with me because I adore the 'normal humans in a horrifying galaxy that get slaughtered but sometimes still win through due to honest human spirit' but DKoK removes that by having them being hot-housed soulless faceless characterless pointless uninteresting mind-boggingly bland soldiers. Especially the characterlessness bothers me. Korpsman #34 and #7465823658 are 100% identical for all intents and purposes. They fight on because of penance/brainwashing/most likely both, and... That's it. Even Oldcrons, hell, even Tyranids seem very deep in comparison. They at least blended soullessness with some mystery and exoticness. The Korps have nothing.

No, I would not retcon them even if I was in charge at GW, since I would not want to take them away from their fans. But if they were removed not a single tear would be shed on my part.

Oh, and I certainly like their appearance. No doubt about that. But their fluff makes me cringe.

No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

I mean the reverse of that. As in they are as brittle in the fluff as they are in the game.
EDIT: Oh nvm I know what you mean by that now.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

Can we add in a SR where if they are fighting SoB or CSM (or are allied with either), SoB and CSM get a -2 to their armor save?

Eh, if they were as brittle in fluff as in the game they would be useless. They consume massive resources in comparison to their numbers and yet in-game they are just glorified Shootaboyz without their armour. Armour that you can as well give to others.

Stormtroopers would do the same job, marginally worse but much much cheaper. No tyvm. I prefer my powermarines.

Just my 2 cents.

Of course. It would be the USR "Movie Marines", which would stipulate:

All enemies take -2 on Armor Save
All enemies will approach to within 1/2 the listed range of bolters before engaging SM forces, especially if the wargear for those models has a superior range to a boltgun.
All enemies will maintain unit coherency, to permit SM blast-weapons to score maximum casualties.
All SM have the Eternal Warrior USR *unless* they are the Force Commander *and* have a IC or SC "second".

I would retcon the Space Wolves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

By that logic, Eldar and IoM are also Tomb Kings. They both had a powerful empire, that they lost most of due to some great disaster and seek to one day get their old glory back.

But the Eldar and IoM don't have armies that come back to life on the battlefield, nor do they have a preponderance of ancient-Egyptian visual themes running through their design asthetic (Thousand Sons notwithstanding). Any one of those things would not be enough to say that Necrons are TK in space, but when all of those things show up together in the same place, you get TK in Spaaaaaaaaace.