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If you could retcon any aspect of the 40k fluff, what would you change?

Would you improve something to make the universe seem more grim dark?

How about eliminating a race? Bringing one back?

How about the histories from the past?

Would you do it without buffing out your own army? Lol let us know!

Tau and anyone that plays them gets removed from the pages of history.

I'd give the Tyranids a more believable MO than getting all their fuel from biomass. That always stuck me as too hard to reconcile since in the current time we understand metabolism well enough to know that eating a bunch of guardsmen burgers does not equal enough power to reach escape velocity.

Over all I enjoy the 40k fluff quite a bit. I think the secret to appreciating it is realizing that:

A: The universe is fundamentally insane
and
B: There are no reliable sources whatsoever (and this is intentional)

So you don't really have to retcon anything, you can do whatever you want with it as it is. So in Rogue Trader days there are half-man, half Eldar Space Marines. By 6th edition fluff that would be impossible right? Or is it? Perhaps there were (or are) such pairs, likely both the Imperium leadership and most Eldar would find such things appalling so both sides would deny there ever was such a thing, or that there ever could be such a thing. But Heretics say that the Imperium leadership are liars and every Emperor fearing human knows that Eldar are incapable of telling the truth. So what do they know?

But answering the spirit of you question I have always imagined the Zoats are what was left of the race that created the Tyranids as a weapon only to lose control of them and be enslaved themselves.

Hmm, what would I retcon? That whole bit of the Blood Angels forming a temporary alliance with the Necrons to fight Tyranids. And the Ultras and Tau playing nice that one time before bombing a planet they fought over.... Basically anything that supports this screwy Allies matrix we have now. And most of the GK backstory. Cool concept, very poor execution.

I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

I would retcon the battle of mccrage especially the part about the first company being wiped out to bring it more in line with current ultramarines fluff.

Change the marines back to the way they were in RT and lose the crusading space knights shtick.

Or make them hardcore Powered armour special forces that specialise in surgical strikes (no tanks) - walkers and power armour suits.

The other thing is that ARTILLERY does not belong on the tabletop in this scale. Remove it and make it off board stuff (that you have to pay for and make a roll for it to come on - like the orbital strikes that the daemon and witch hunters used to get.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

I would definitely be okay with that - I mean there are Ratling and Ogryn abhumans accepted in the IG, so why no Squats. Of course, I've been in this hobby since the days of Epic Space Marine and always had to face off against the Squats. I respect those little bastards, they can put up quite the fight.

I'd retcon the price hikes since the '90s!

 chromedog wrote:
Change the marines back to the way they were in RT and lose the crusading space knights shtick.

Or make them hardcore Powered armour special forces that specialise in surgical strikes (no tanks) - walkers and power armour suits.

The other thing is that ARTILLERY does not belong on the tabletop in this scale. Remove it and make it off board stuff (that you have to pay for and make a roll for it to come on - like the orbital strikes that the daemon and witch hunters used to get.

I agree with all this. The Marine background used to be much cooler when only the outliers were monks and most were like raving sociopaths that are routinely brainwiped.

I'd retcon the abysmal changes to the Grey Knights background based on Ward's ideas with some of them including the ridiculousness of being completely incorruptible which includes the doubly stupid idea of Purifiers. Take out Draigo and his two-dimensional entirely as well as the controversial Bloodtide event with the Sisters of Battle or at least fluff it out so the Sisters sacrificed themselves in the name of the Emperor so their blood could be sanctified as a shield for them.

I would also probably revert the Black Templars fluff back to them hating all psykers (cept for grey knights, etc.) rather than being alright with them and having some half-assed reason why they don't have librarians.

Other than that retcon some of the Emperor's decisions in how he handled the Primarchs and even how some of the Primarchs fell. The problem is that once Black Library began trying to fluff out the Heresy it inevitably lead to poor execution and portrayal at attempts to add depth to characters that were never intended to be seen in a sustained and focussed perspective. Throw in the inconsistency they have with their own timeline with the way events/books are ordered and it only makes certain character's decisions like the Emperor even more confusing and irrational.

Oh and Iron Hands to be different in their clan autonomy rather than codex-adherent like Ward made them recently with his Clan Raukaan supplement.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I'd retcon the price hikes since the '90s!

/thread

Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

From the little I have seen from rogue trader going back would make it less adult.Except for daemonette models....

Necrons in their entirety, they are just a 'my dad can beat up your dad' army, who have no weaknesses, are immortal and are more numerous than humans. Complete bull, they define the phrase Mary Sue.

"Nevermore..."

Seriously, that completely ruined Corax's story for me. I would retcon that one stupid line.

Orks have gotten a little out of hand with ideas about how their technology is really fake but works because they believe it does. Silly. It was better when they were really crude and occasional savant like orks (mekboyz) built things that were brilliant hold-overs of technology buried in ork genes, but still were crude and unreliable even if fantastic. Now there's a lot of "perfect race" and "ork tech scales to meet the opposition". Not sure how much of that is cannon and how much is just people on forums, but orks are getting a bit too much even though I really like them.

Also, I liked when Guardians were former aspect warriors, not just a militia.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

I actually agree with all of this. It's bull that Necrons could just turn around and shatter their own Gods too, just because they're that awesome !one!

Consistency!

Most of the Black Library authors suffer from 'fan boy' syndrome, and in my opinion, and my opinion alone, most are awful authors.

One will write that a single squad of SPASS MAHEENs can capture a planet. One will write that a Commissar with a chain sword and plot protection can take out a Space Marine by himself.
One will write that a power sword will pierce Astartes power armour, but one author will write that power armour can withstand artillery strikes and warp blasts.

One will write that Chaos can be beaten just by praying, one will write that Chaos is infinite, and will consume all.
One will write that a lasgun kicks like a mule, while one writes that a lasgun has no recoil.

I could go on, but you get the point. I just wish Black Library just went, 'right, this is the sanctioned fluff. Stick to it!'

On a side note: Most of the Black Library authors seem to go all 'BIG GUNS AND GRIM DARK AND DARK GRIM AND BIG GUNS!' They don't know how to write an actual, decent military-set science fiction story. They all seem to think we'll 11 years old, too.

For example, I read in one awful Imperial Guard novel that some random Guardsman, had somehow gotten his hands on a Leman Russ tank, and was somehow driving the tank, and firing its main gun from up in the tank's capola!

Unfortunately, most Black Library fluff falls under inconsistent, author-makes-up-his-own-mind fluff, as opposed to a decent, military, science fiction story written by an author that actually knows how military structure, vehicles and weapons work, and whom can combine these into a decent piece of fiction.

I'm also unsure why Black Library will put things like death, gore, torture, rape, and general 'orrible stuff in there books, but they won't let anyone say, 'fu*k.'

I would make it consistent so that it is not changed every few years.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Squats are already abhumans. They were among a long list of abhumans provided in the 6th edition core rules on page 404.

 Tower75 wrote:
Consistency!

Most of the Black Library authors suffer from 'fan boy' syndrome, and in my opinion, and my opinion alone, most are awful authors.

One will wright that a single squad of SPASS MAHEENs can capture a planet. One will wright that a Commissar with a chain sword and plot protection can take out a Space Marine by himself.
One will wright that a power sword will pierce Astartes power armour, but one author will write that power armour can withstand artillery strikes and warp blasts.

One will write that Chaos can be beaten just by praying, one will write that Chaos is infinite, and will consume all.
One will write that a lasgun kicks like a mule, while one writes that a lasgun has no recoil.

I could go on, but you get the point. I just wish Black Library just went, 'right, this is the sanctioned fluff. Stick to it!'

On a side note: Most of the Black Library authors seem to go all 'BIG GUNS AND GRIM DARK AND DARK GRIM AND BIG GUNS!' They don't know how to write an actual, decent military-set science fiction story. They all seem to think we'll 11 years old, too.

For example, I read in one awful Imperial Guard novel that some random Guardsman, had somehow gotten his hands on a Leman Russ tank, and was somehow driving the tank, and firing its main gun from up in the tank's capola!

Unfortunately, most Black Library fluff falls under inconsistent, author-makes-up-his-own-mind fluff, as opposed to a decent, military, science fiction story written by an author that actually knows how military structure, vehicles and weapons work, and whom can combine these into a decent piece of fiction.

I'm also unsure why Black Library will put things like death, gore, torture, rape, and general 'orrible stuff in there books, but they won't let anyone say, 'fu*k.'

I've changed my mind - I vote for everything Tower just said.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

I actually agree with all of this. It's bull that Necrons could just turn around and shatter their own Gods too, just because they're that awesome !one!

Well to be honest either outcome was terrible . You either had gods that were daemon gods but better because they were in the real realm or you get the necrons that kill their own gods because why not?

In general, I actually agree with Vet here on all but one point. Acts of Faith. I enjoy their ambiguous form where it could be claimed to be divine, or using the warp unkowingly, or, better yet, it just being the sisters pushing themself to maximum potential by way of believe (that being said I dislike it when the ambiguity of it all is radically tossed aside).

What I'd change? really hard one. For starters, chaos make sure to keep fluff for all the varying other gods that are lessers but still there. Next, scrub out 90% of the wolf that is within the SW codex. Next, abolish necrons and limit tyranids. I like necrons design but in general they are just so generally better than everything it isn't even intriguing. Tyranids have that entire claim of WE HAVE SWALLOWED GALAXIES FEAR US! At least with chaos (which is a serious threat) it takes 13 black crusades that are all slowly weakening the imperium to mess stuff up. Bring back legions! Warbands can exist but don't say only warbands are left and then start talking about a legion. Return the Doomrider! many more things would be easy to list but I'm done for now

Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'd miss them

Tyranids but only from a time perspective. It should take years for even a single planet to be stripped bare.

I like the idea of them being a slow creeping threat rather than just nom-nom quickly and move on.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)