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CSM and Chaos need some lovin.

For a force that's suppose to be terrifying, powerful, and stuff, they get beaten a lot. How can they be terrifying if they lose so often!

Course there are exceptions. Storm of Iron and Blood Reaver to name a few.

Also the lack of independant or undivided chaos fluff, for something that's suppose to be about choice and doing whatever I want, it's kinda limiting

The whole "Royal" system of Necrons.

Bring by Pariahs, down with Lychguard and Praetorians.

Better confirmation or more frequent examples of the Emperor as a Chaos God (Saints = Daemon Princes, etc.)

In order

Throne is NOT failing/Emperor is not dying.

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

"Legion" never happened.

Grey Knights do not massacre loyal soldiers no matter the condition

Ultramarines are highly respected but nothing more. They are not the best, not every chapter desires to be like them, their leaders are not the greatest and make mistakes.

Ollanius Pius was a soldier in the Imperial Army who was just an ordinary man in the wrong place at the wrong time

thats also all my personal fluff


Oh and 1 major change that if I had a chance to redesign 40k I would have done... add a 0 to every number ever mentioned about Space Marines (except squads and Company size. Add a new designation for 1,000 man units, Chapters are 10,000 men, etc... )

So.... GK aren't doing their jobs, then?

 Galdos wrote:

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

A lot of the time, they are. The problem is that they are so hopelessly outclassed by other factions that it comes out as not really making much of a difference. Commissars don't exist because they can't be bothered to train their troops, they exist because these troops are expected to face down all manner of eldritch nightmares with only their faith in the Emperor for reassurance.

As everyone else has said increase the number of a SM chapter to 10,000.
What I would like to see reworked is battles with the tau and by this I mean what kind of damage do the ork warbands and tyranid splinter fleets do to the tau empire and how does it effect the third expansion as well as battles with the IOM give these battles depth not just the tau won or who ever won. The main thing to me would be that all the fluff needs to be toned down. GW tends to keep adding to each update some more than others. I just would like depth to these battles and races showing the good and bad sides of the race not one sided fights and over the top fluff made to sell armies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Actually I like Chaos, as long as you get rid of most of the demon units and put them back in CSM instead of the stupid "use your WHFB army in 40k" system we have now. Chaos has an important role in the story, has lots of interesting artistic potential, and fights like a proper army on the tabletop. They might not be strictly realistic, but they mostly make sense as long as you accept the magic/corruption aspect. And since it's explicitly magic it doesn't have to obey the normal laws of reality.

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.


*This, by the way, is why the new Necron fluff is so much better than the old stuff. Yes, it has its stupid bits, but at least it's better than the old "metal Tyranids" version where they're just another mindless devouring swarm.

It sounds like you just want various shades of humans fighting each other.

Tyranids are one of the few semi-original, semi-alien concepts in 40K. Pretty much all the other xenos races are fundamentally human at the end of the day, no matter how many "eldritches" and "inscrutables" their codex throws out in the background sections. Eldar were lush humans, now they're monastic humans. DE are sociopaths and serial killers. Tau are socialist technocrats. Necrons are a weird mixed bag now, but there's nothing truly alien about them.

It frustrates me when people claim that identifying with heroes or raging against villains are the most important components to good background. Yeah, maybe if you're eight years old, and the extent of the complexity you can process is Honourable Knight, Evil Dragon, Pretty Princess. The thing that makes Tyranids unique in 40K is the faceless, mindless quality you hate so much. They're not just six-armed humans (to go along with the pointy eared humans, the evil pointy eared humans, the fish-faced humans, etc.)

What exactly is wrong with writing a story about the weeds in your backyard? When I watch an episode of Planet Earth it blows my mind, and it has nothing to do with me "identifying" with Termites.

I don't know about you, Altruizine, but I really relate to the Tyranids. People tend to go insane around me, and I have this constant urge to eat people and then go dissolve myself in the bath. I've also been known to steal jeans.

Seriously, though, I agree with what you're saying. It's the same with how people talk about characters of all sorts, though; that, in order to be a fan of Wonder Woman, you need to be a girl and need to "identify" with her, and by that same token, girls can't "identify" with Superman or Batman or anyone else who isn't exactly the same gender and race as they are.

Peregrine feels to me like one of those people who is obsessed with the power of humans and human technology. I've had quite a few of those (well, three) on my forum. Guns and infantry (human) rule all, any form of magic or sci-fi tech is bad and unoriginal. The same sort of people who refuse to believe that lasguns are better than M16s, or even that 40k's various 'slug-throwers' are in any way superior to modern firearms "because they can't be improved any more". I'm not saying that Peregrine necessarily feels this way, but that he feels very much like this flavour of person which you may or may not know well.

Arent we slipping to personal prejudice instead of talking about fluff or simply story functionality?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

A lot of the time, they are. The problem is that they are so hopelessly outclassed by other factions that it comes out as not really making much of a difference. Commissars don't exist because they can't be bothered to train their troops, they exist because these troops are expected to face down all manner of eldritch nightmares with only their faith in the Emperor for reassurance.

The guard suffer from the law of inverse ninjitsu.

1 Guardsman can kill multiple csms (Hawk - from storm of iron) I think Cain's killed csm's too. There's mre if I could be bothered to look.
As soon as enough guardsmen gather, they charge into another book at company strength level and get smashed by whatever feels like turning up to fight.

And what would I retcon?

The Sanguinor. He can fly back up Matt Ward's a***, dropping off eternal warrior at Dante's house as he leaves. I still hate the idea that the Blood Angels, one of the first founding chapters get into fights they can only win with the help of a spooky angel who lives in the warp. Its worse than wolves riding wolves and space marines inside space marines. I don't mind the nipple armour, or even the BA/Necron alliance, but seriously, Feth the Sanguinor. He's the SM equivalent of the Littlest Fething Hobo. He flies down, saves Mephiston and Dante (as if they should ever need saving! ) and then feths off back into the warp, saying
'sorry guys, I'd love to stay and help but I've got stuff to do, try not to get into anymore gak you can't handle please'
'what stuff?'
'You know, warp type stuff''
'What is there to do in the warp? why don't you just stay here and help us - maybe become a company captain or something?'
'Dude, you know what warp stuff is like'
'Actually, no I don't - whats it like?'
'If you don't already know, then I can't tell you...but it's big warp stuff I've got going on'
'eh?'
'Big warp stuff''
'like wh-'
'BIIIG warpy stuff' - Bye'

I mean, Draigo is apparently trapped in the warp and can only return when a demonic incursion is under way - whats the Sanguinors excuse?
At the moment in the 5th Ed BA codex, they've got Necrons on one side, Chaos on another and Nids (IIRC anyway) all poised to attack. But it's ok, if they get into serious gak, the sanguinor will fly down and remove all dramatic tension by saving the day....

Feth The Sanguinor.

I don't think the Sanguinor needs an excuse, he might not even be a guy and thus incapable of making one.
Also I think Mephiston has been saved more by Eldrad's intervention than the Sanguinor's, that's to say he got saved by Eldrad once. I don't think Dante has ever needed him around either.
I wouldn't exactly be torn up if he was removed or anything, but he just seems like a BA specific Legion of the Damned to me.

He's just a pointless waste of of rules/fluff.

They should give his rules to Dante. And then let Dante have a non-unwieldy axe.
Get rid of the death mask rules and let Dante buff a sergeant instead and I'd be happy. It'd get rid of the stupid debuff which is just annoying and doesn't work in the fluff (How can the Swarmlord be scared so much by Dante it loses a wound?) and give people the two wound sergeant which does work (and is quite a nice touch, especially if you've got a nice sarge in your army)

When did Eldrad save Mephiston? I've missed that one and I play eldar and a mate plays BA and we've a game tomorrow

I'd probably retcon away the Sons of Malice.

That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats.

Why so mutually exclusive?

Orks are BOTH comic relief AND one of the universe's greatest threats. Orks make more sense, and are just generally better and more coherent in the lore, for being more grimdark-- and yet they're still being comedic in their own ways. Not because "oh orks you so silly and stupid and weak", but because "damn, Orks are WEIRD..."

 Melissia wrote:
I'd probably retcon away the Sons of Malice.

That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats.

Why so mutually exclusive?

Orks are BOTH comic relief AND one of the universe's greatest threats. Orks make more sense, and are just generally better and more coherent in the lore, for being more grimdark-- and yet they're still being comedic in their own ways. Not because "oh orks you so silly and stupid and weak", but because "damn, Orks are WEIRD..."

And then you get things like:

Orks Codex wrote:
"More often than not,, the replacement is something from the 'cuttin' edge'of the local Mek's craft. This can be distressing for the owner of, for instance, a Rutgot Mk2 Exploding Leg, especially if it was his arm that needed the attention."

And then we laugh at their combined genius and stupidity

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Arent we slipping to personal prejudice instead of talking about fluff or simply story functionality?

It's nothing personal, it's just how I feel he came off.

I'm not familiar with Cain's Last Stand. What happened?

EDIT: Although I wish GW would stop with the silly overuse of Orky contractions (fighta-bommer). I presume Orks don't have any literacy, so spelling everything based on their accents gets really tired when it's just everything.

EDIT 2: Especially when it's The Imperium doing it. Xenos vehicle classification: Trukky Boomy Trukky Trukk Innit.

I believe it has something to do with a powerful psyker mind controlling a large unit of SoB as his personal guard (forgive me Melissa if I didn't nail all of it). On note of SoB, besides the obvious mentioning of the GK incident... I don't remember the name but.... the book about Space Wolves where Sisters are so vastly inferior and lose faith in the god emprah but a feral brutal group of jerks make them become reinspired and even with tactical preperation the SoB and guard fail in comparison to the great wolves.

It was also the fact that he felt the need to introduce a hard-drinking, casual-sex-having, moderately religious retired Celestian (all of which contradict the lore behind Celestians...).

 Selym wrote:
And then we laugh at their combined genius and stupidity

Yeah, that's the best part about Orks. They combine humor and grimdarkness with exquisite skill.

To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

 Melissia wrote:
It was also the fact that he felt the need to introduce a hard-drinking, casual-sex-having, moderately religious retired Celestian (all of which contradict the lore behind Celestians...).

Ah yes, I've heard that one before. Didn't know it was from the same thing.

EDIT:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

Except the Sisters of Battle. That's the point.

Well there was that one sister of battle.... then again she ended up whooping the slaanesh warband that captured her and made them her own arm of chaos.

Well that is one hell of a program if its better than what the SM's got.

 Melissia wrote:
That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

This too. A lot of people gotten weird impressions of the Sisters from that book. Mostly because their codexes describe such an extremely sheltered, regimented lifestyle, whilst one of his SoB characters pretty much goes completely against that.

Edit: rethought that last paragraph. If Sandy Mitchell did decide to write them with their fluff in mind and did a little research, then I'd probably be much more okay with his SoB.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB.

I don't disagree.

I just disagree with the underlying assertion in this statement that he did so with anything resembling good taste; or that he showed much respect for the Sisters lore, or respect for the characters he was writing who weren't Cain or Jurgen.

To him, "making them more human" basically means turning them to be more like a stereotypical male soldier, which is wrong on at least seven levels.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Eldrad save Mephiston? I've missed that one and I play eldar and a mate plays BA and we've a game tomorrow

The Battle of Hollonan, page 17 of the current BA codex.

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

They come from different worlds and upbringings.

Some are nobles who were gifted/inherited the title, others were educated for it, some just got it by accident.

Every so often, you'll end up with an asshat controlling millions of guardsmen, whose only tactic is to throw more bodies at the problem until it goes away.

EDIT: And he probably just got medals for winning wars...

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

Well, the Sororitas is a penitent order. They believe that they are "working off" their own sins, as well as the sins of humanity (Oblationist creed). The Repentia are those who have violated some rule or stricture within their order, or believe that they have. To them, the purpose of life is to suffer, as He on Terra suffers. Where the Grey Knights gain their purity and incorruptible nature through their arcane sorceries, psychic defenses and supernatural willpower, the Sisterhood gains it through a clarity of purpose and single-minded devotion to the Golden Throne.

A Sister who has lost her faith, or who feels her faith weakening, would be the first person to turn herself into her Sister Superior or Canoness for what amounts to a personal Penitent Crusade... though she might not actually be going anywhere. As the saying goes, "Pain is faith entering the body, pleasure is corruption entering the soul." She would not be out, carousing with Commissars and soldiers, sleeping around in the barracks and knocking back shots. A loss of faith, or resolve, or even breaking what are probably very minor rules is punished severely within the Sisterhood.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

I guess they were trying to go for the Soviet era commissars of the Red Army by making him through lives away. And that happened in real life, maybe not as big of a scale, but to a certain degree.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

I guess they were trying to go for the Soviet era commissars of the Red Army by making him through lives away. And that happened in real life, maybe not as big of a scale, but to a certain degree.

And in some IG armies, you'll have far more bodies then equipment due to the fact that some bureaucrat sent your supplies to another sector..

You've gotta remember that the powers above still has to deal with bureaucrats who are sending MILLIONS of supplies all over the galaxy in ships, sometimes to the wrong place, sometimes to the wrong people. Sometimes you've just got manpower.

All the current Necron fluff.