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 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

in the competitive scene, I agree that Tau and Eldar are more popular. That's only a fraction of the total player base though. That Pendulum may swing back when they are updated though.

I'll give you that the Tyranids need a bit of fluff rewrite, but not a total squatting. I don't see how you can not like their models though!

I'd retcon, the retcon of the 13th black crusade. If you want grimdark, actually let the bad guys win for once.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

You must be a blast a parties.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Squats always were abhumans.

 buddha wrote:
Tyranids but only from a time perspective. It should take years for even a single planet to be stripped bare.

I like the idea of them being a slow creeping threat rather than just nom-nom quickly and move on.

I would really like that too. Aside from a realism factor, it would give a reason for the Tyranids to defended something, which would add some depth to the scenarios you could play with them.

I'd Retcon the sizes of forces like the Space Marines so their 'tales of greatness' don't seem like stupid fluff boy writing. I wouldn't mind a 'Chapter of Marines' mauling ten times their number in enemies if they numbered a bit more. Ideas like two Craftworlds of Eldar being stopped by 1,000 Marines is dumb and makes the fluff not worth even listening to.

I'd also change other mental fanboi fluff like those given to the Necrons recently and the idea of how Tyranids maintain themselves( their current fluff is a complete nightmare of bio-failure).

I'd retcon is that all forces are 1,000 times larger than they are so that a galactic war the size the fluff says it is makes sense.

Bring back Grey Knights as the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus only, pump their numbers back up to the epic levels they used to be.
Secondly I'd retcon 80% of what Ward said about the Ultramarines, reduce the hate by a large amount.
For my next trick, I'd make Space Wolves a bit less furry, and Slaanesh a bit more kinky, druggie and loud.

I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity. Sure, not nearly as organised as before, but how come could they pose any significant threat to any other faction if most of them were reduced to a number of small warbands? Iron Warriors and Word Bearers should set the example. Hell, their Primarchs still command them more or less directly.

The worst part of Necrons (aka, 3rd edition necrons) got retconned, so most things are good for me.

Though if I had to pick a current thing, I'd retcon the retcon of the 13th black crusade having broken the skies an planet of cadia and broken from the warpgate.

I'd retcon the size of Space Marine chapters. They need to be 10,000 at least to do what they do in the fluff. I mean if 1,000 Marines attacked a planet, they would just be murdered. Even going by the 100 guard = 1 SM, there are plenty of places where 100,000 guard show up. Space Marines either need more emphasis on being Special ops assassins, or need to be larger. A simple "hold the line!" thing for Space Marines simply doesn't work mathematically. A full Ork horde running at a line of Imperial fists would bulldoze the Marines into the dirt, because a few hundred thousand plus Orks can easily kill a Chapter just based on numbers. Also, the battle of Macragge frustrates me, because a full (and huge at that) Tyranid swarm would wipe out the Ultramarines. The battle would be so much better if the SPace battle happens first and destroys most of the fleet, but a few ships launch some spores at the planet before dying.

@Peregrine: I'm pretty sure Nids would be missed. Why the hate? Is there some local Nid player who's beaten you a few too many times? Nids are one of the oldest armies, one of the most well established and popular, and way too important to the fluff to just get removed.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

Grossly unfair comment, who made you be all end all of taste? I love the idea of Tyranids, really starship troopersque. Until the New (And terrible) Necron fluff came out they where the most believable end game race. I also like their models...

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that things a lot of stupidity comes from the size vs fluff of the Space Marine Chapters

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

 Psienesis wrote:


Squats always were abhumans.

Yes, technically they were abhumans. But back in early 2nd Ed, they were treated as their own separate race. They had their own army list (Black Codex still counts!) had their own psychic powers cards, had racial animosity against Orks, and so on. They weren't the Admech or the Space Marines ("We have our own army lists and models, but we're totes Imperials, yo"). There were nods to the fact that they started out as human, but their presentation was clear: Squats were a separate race and faction from the Imperium. And because the guys doing 3rd Ed couldn't translate the Epic Squats into a 40k version, they got... well, Squatted. Now it's way too late to bring them in as their own faction again (GW has a hard enough time keeping up with the armies it has), but some recognition in the IG codex would be nice. A few models, maybe.

I want more than a throwaway line in the BRB, dammit.

I would retcon Necrons and bring back 3rd edition. I would much rather have the scary kill everything version than the our lords have touchy feelings version. That and Tomb Kings in space is lame and boring

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

 Imposter101 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Or orks...

Da krimson barun wrote:
*SNIP*

Or any xenos for that matter.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

Pretty sure that isn't true.

Just as I am also sure that retconning an entire army out of existence and rendering the money consumers spent on the models and rulebooks useless just to satisfy one's own conception of how a setting should operate is entirely selfish and even amoral.

I'd retcon all of the objectively bad parts of the fifth edition codex (Unlike the plebeian and uneducated cowards who take an all or nothing approach to the changes, I can acknowledge some were good or interesting). Like Dolmen Gates, or the Overlord who has tea parties with captured Marines.

Anyway, if the Necrons united, no force in the galaxy could begin to stop them. It can barely stop them now. I find it infinitely amusing when profligates admire the 5e Necron codex for "de-sueifying" the Necrons, when honestly? They are more powerful than ever.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity.

To be fair, that's the way it always was.

They engaged in a frontal assault on a fortified target, both sides ground eachother to a pulp before the traitors' morale broke, and they fled. The majority of casualties in pitched battles are sustained in retreat. The Ultramarines spend seven years then Scouring the traitors from the galaxy and driving them to flee into the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. The traitor Legions were effectively destroyed. Two of them ceased to exist within a few years. The rest spent the next several millennia battling eachother, and the Imperium.

It takes hundreds of years for Chaos to gather enough power to even attempt a Black Crusade, and all of them have failed, no matter what ADB likes to believe, lol.

The reality is, the traitor legions have never been the significant threat. Chaos is the significant threat, not the remnants of the Legions. Chaos is insidious. It is lurking doom, corruption. The Inquisition is so relentless because of it. The remnants of the Chaos Marines just occasionally show up to steal all the glory like the regular Space Marines do from the Imperial Guard.

Gentlemen, let's keep the army bashing to a minimal please. I understand some might not like other armies for whatever reason, but we have to learn to accept them as part of the hobby.
There are a lot of things I agree with here in regards of consistancy within the fluff, but I don't feel any race should be retconned out of existance. Maybe made slightly more fair and what not, but not completely removed.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

Centurions are actually pretty cool. The Codex art for example makes them look pretty badass. It's just the stupid models and the fact that they don't have any armor on the back. And the whole 'Space Marine inside a Space Marine'. But just remove those two bits and give them longer legs and they'd be pretty damn cool. They're like a lite Dreadnaught with no need for a critically injured battle-brother.

Also, I have no idea what books you're reading Tower. A good chunk of the Black Library is completely solid and doesn't cater to eleven year old children. You just avoid the books. Plus, the inconsistency is actually nice as thanks to GW's canon policy, there's no real reason to bother about canon at all. Wave off the stuff you don't like with the 'full of lies' bit on the canon policy.

Also, I'd probably recon the Horus Heresy series for it to start anew. Give us five books about Horus and the future traitors during the Great Crusade, and better-constructed reasons for them to turn traitor. Introduce us better to the major non-primarch Space Marines. Just more time. Horus Rising was a fantastic book, and how McNeil steamrolled it with False Gods irks me since reading it. It's a well written book, but the start of the Horus Heresy feels far too rushed for us to really get to know and love these characters. Especially compared to how it crawls forward at a snail's pace now.

I might also want the Grey Knights retconned a bit. Keep with the loyalist members of the traitor legions founding them. But change the Grey Knights a bit. Give them a bit more of a cool BPRD feel rather than the current one where they just come off as complete jerks. They're not really sympathetic characters despite the fluff trying to present them as such. Just have the mind be made up on rather if they're utter jerks that we're not supposed to like or sympathetic yet still dogmatic protagonists. The current GK however just give me mixed signals on alignment, especially with the Ward changes.

I'd personally rather the Grey Knights changed to a purely heroic bit, something like the Legion of the Damned. When they show up, they save the damn day- period. That's it. Any executions carried out should be done by the other members of the Ordo Malleus, not the GK unless you really want to drive home that they're no better than Chaos.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity.

To be fair, that's the way it always was.

They engaged in a frontal assault on a fortified target, both sides ground eachother to a pulp before the traitors' morale broke, and they fled. The majority of casualties in pitched battles are sustained in retreat. The Ultramarines spend seven years then Scouring the traitors from the galaxy and driving them to flee into the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. The traitor Legions were effectively destroyed. Two of them ceased to exist within a few years. The rest spent the next several millennia battling eachother, and the Imperium.

It takes hundreds of years for Chaos to gather enough power to even attempt a Black Crusade, and all of them have failed, no matter what ADB likes to believe, lol.

The reality is, the traitor legions have never been the significant threat. Chaos is the significant threat, not the remnants of the Legions. Chaos is insidious. It is lurking doom, corruption. The Inquisition is so relentless because of it. The remnants of the Chaos Marines just occasionally show up to steal all the glory like the regular Space Marines do from the Imperial Guard.

Except the fluff openly claims he was victorious in them all . Just because they don't immediately spew out and destro the Imperium doesn't mean their cause was over. That is an overarching ploy (and I don't think they would hate it if it happened earlier than the 13th) but it was all a gradual build up. Oh and then ret conne the 13th crusade cause why not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imposter101 wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
*SNIP*

Or any xenos for that matter.

Or the Imperium with their religious devotion and usage of the warp for travel and the sorts. Or well okay actually all of Warhammer 40k considering it is well... sci fantasy and always has been (to be technical he also has problems with titans due to the fact they are unrealistic, the notion of cc in general, and the WW 1 era tanks as realistically they were actually TERRIBLE designs). Humerously enough, I actually can agree with him on many points about both necrons as well as Tyranids. I like my nids but... first of all traveling the universe gobbling galaxies? A bit OTT maybe? Also it's kinda hard to think oh chaos and Necrons are such a threat when they are like we'd need to conscript 1000% of the human population to fight them. Necrons, whilst there are many flaws and in many places are more stupidly broken then before, at least now they don't actually have true gods running around in the real world and aren't pretty much metallic nids. (I say this all the while knowing that if I were to build 3 new armies one would be nids )

Oh, and another thing to add to the list- the Relic games. The Blood Ravens have resulted in nothing besides a cluster %#^%# of bad fluff, stupid fan theories, and simply serve nothing good for W40K besides an unnecessary headache.

I would eliminate Tyranids. I find their fluff lacking, and I think that their net effect on the setting, not to mention the game, is detrimental rather than productive.

 Imposter101 wrote:
I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Actually I like Chaos, as long as you get rid of most of the demon units and put them back in CSM instead of the stupid "use your WHFB army in 40k" system we have now. Chaos has an important role in the story, has lots of interesting artistic potential, and fights like a proper army on the tabletop. They might not be strictly realistic, but they mostly make sense as long as you accept the magic/corruption aspect. And since it's explicitly magic it doesn't have to obey the normal laws of reality.

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.


*This, by the way, is why the new Necron fluff is so much better than the old stuff. Yes, it has its stupid bits, but at least it's better than the old "metal Tyranids" version where they're just another mindless devouring swarm.

Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

Perpetual was fluff that was just horrid though.