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IIRC, the Adeptus/Legiones Astartes were originally created by the Emperor to fight for the Great Crusade and spread the Imperial Truth. After the HH, they've pretty much been protecting the Imperium from outside threats with few Chapters continuing to conquer planets for the Imperium. My question is that should the Astartes be permanently replaced by the IG, SoB, Navy, and any other military branch I don't know about?

Most issues I have seen are that the Astartes usually butt heads with authority, such as the Inquisition, and can sometimes get away with it largely unscathed. Again, IIRC Ogryns and some other sub-humans are stretching the Ecclesiarchy's tolerance for being human and by their definition, Astartes would be considered as a non-human thanks to all the gene-seeds implanted in them.

Some arguments for keeping the Astartes would be that they are one of the better militaristic forces in the Imperium. I won't deny that the Space Marines can fight much better then your average human, but that can also make them more of a liability to have. Most of the dangerous foes that the Imperium has faced came from being an Astartes that turned over to Chaos. Not only that, the majority of the Adeptus Astartes are limited to a specific organisation that cannot exceed to more then a thousand Astartes while the Guard don't have such limitations (at least, as far as I know).

"But what about the anti-daemon GKs that are important for keeping the forces of Chaos at bay?" you may ask. As far as I know, the SoB have always remained pure whenever Chaos is around and don't easily fall prey to Chaos' influences.

BTW, the only reason I bring this up is because I was talking about this with my buddy after I told him about a thread I saw and we were talking about if the Imperium would be better off without the Marines.

No
Because then there would be no one intelligent enough to know that empy was not a god and did not want to be as such. And several other factors lol

Most issues I have seen are that the Astartes usually butt heads with authority, such as the Inquisition, and can sometimes get away with it largely unscathed. Again, IIRC Ogryns and some other sub-humans are stretching the Ecclesiarchy's tolerance for being human and by their definition, Astartes would be considered as a non-human thanks to all the gene-seeds implanted in them.

Well not really they aren't mutants as ogryns and ratlings are, they have been enhanced using technology and have the genes of primarchs/the emperor in them. They are seen as the pinnacle of humanity and moulded in his image.

Some arguments for keeping the Astartes would be that they are one of the better militaristic forces in the Imperium. I won't deny that the Space Marines can fight much better then your average human, but that can also make them more of a liability to have. Most of the dangerous foes that the Imperium has faced came from being an Astartes that turned over to Chaos. Not only that, the majority of the Adeptus Astartes are limited to a specific organisation that cannot exceed to more then a thousand Astartes while the Guard don't have such limitations (at least, as far as I know).

Most of the dangerous foes came from being astartes that turned over to chaos? So what about the Tyranids, Necrons and Orks? They are far larger threats to the imperium in the grand scheme of things.

But what about the anti-daemon GKs that are important for keeping the forces of Chaos at bay?" you may ask. As far as I know, the SoB have always remained pure whenever Chaos is around and don't easily fall prey to Chaos' influences.

So what if the SoB remain pure? They don't have the equipment, know how or training that the GK have aquired over the 10000 years they have been operating.

In short, no, SM and IG perform a different role. The IG are incredibly more powerful , but take a long time to respond, whereas SM forces by comparison can quickly deal with threats before they can escalate and can be force multipliers in larger campagins to achieve goals the IG cannot deal with. All your talk about how much trouble they cause is because of the actions of a few chapter out of approximately 1000, the only reason why you hear about the ones making trouble is it sells more GW stuff. A greater percent of humans go rogue in the imperium than do space marines every year, and the damage they cause is alot more significant. The amount of worlds that fall due to rebellion by humans each year is horrendous and the resources to crush them also has to increase.

It would pretty much be like them ringing the dinner bell for every xeno and chaos worshiper in the galaxy so no it will never happen.

No. Just... No, for so many reasons. Not to mention that it would greatly drop my interest in 40K as a whole if they did, given that the Marines is one thing 40K has that stands out for me.

An individual Chapter might be expensive to found and equip - initially - but the service they provide is worth it in most cases.

The marines are poster boys but also often deliver results because they can respond to threats without waiting for instructions. Their numbers are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, it's their ability to act faster than any other Imperial institution that makes them valuable. Their Chapter worlds are often somewhere out on the fringe or in some backwater that would take large Navy and IG bases to keep watch on, bases that the IoM simply can't afford to keep if they wish to put resources toward bigger threats.

Ofc, this assumes they keep to the elite strike force role instead of fighting wars of attrition or doing grand final stands like they often do in the fluff. To the IoM they're special forces - there's just a few of them but all are the hardest you can imagine. They're meant to do stuff you don't want to send a full army to do and also produce propaganda about how bad-ass your army really is.

Nah, they do more good than harm. They're one of the strongest forces that the Imperium has, after all. No need to get rid of them.

 raiden wrote:
No
Because then there would be no one intelligent enough to know that empy was not a god and did not want to be as such. And several other factors lol

That's less a matter of intelligence and more a matter of belief, though. A Space Marine could be a idiotic brute and still buy into the Marine beliefs of Big E just being a man. Likewise, a missionary could be a cunning intellectual and still believe whole-heartedly in Ecclesiarchial dogma.

Besides, faith is useful! It keeps the Imperium together, and lets the SoB do the things they do on the battlefield.

No, the Imperium shouldn't get rid off Spess Mehreens. I will get rid off 'em

The Imperium should get rid of the Marines. But only if it wants to be eaten by Tyranids/Chaos.
The IG is not capable enough to defeat mankind's most dangerous enemies without support. You can not win every war by using a sledgehammer.
And the SoB are not numerous enough.
Also the Imperium would most likely be unable to get rid of the Space Marines. Trying to do so would cause a civil war even greater than the Horus Heresy and would completely destroy the Imperium.
Besides that, why would the IoM want to get rid of one of it's greatest assets? Only because they collide with other Imperial institutions every now and then? That is no big deal. The Imperium's institutions frequently are at odds with each other.

Tricky question. I wish they'd be rid of them in a sense of their mentally challenged fluff. But I like the concept if it were written better.

The Space Marines need their independence. The Imperial beaurocracy is so slow due to its sheer size that it takes them forever to get the Imperial Guard in place where it's needed sometimes. In this case, the Imperium needs at least one organization that's independent enough to act without having to deal with all that red tape in case of emergency, and the astartes, with their smaller quality-over-quantity focus (that also makes it easier to keep tabs on them so their independence doesn't go too far) and various enhancements that ensure they're always ready to jump into battle at a moment's notice (they can go without food and sleep for a long time, for example) are perfect for that position.

One day, sure. When there are no more Xenos to fight, no more worlds to conquer and no more threats to the Imperium that need Space Marines to fight, then they should be discarded. They have no real functions outside of weapons of war, Ultramar notwithstanding... which could be done by a non-SM person.

Yes. A million dudes for the whole galaxy is laughable anyway.

They cause as many/more problems than they solve.

They are much more self contained than the IG as well-- they replace their own casualties, for the most part make their own weapons and armor and ammunition, are transported by their own ships, and commanded by a heirarchy integral to the fighting body itself. Considering that getting just one of those factors in order for an IG campaign typically takes months to years, AT BEST, having them all under one roof is a major asset. Get their the firstest with the mostest as some old Rebel general said-- that's the basic idea of Space Marines. A lot of times 1000 super humans can handle something a few days or hours after it happens but if you let it fester for a year you will need millions of guardsmen, hundreds of thousands of whom will die.

What would be the benefits of removing the Astartes and replacing them with more Guard, Navy, SoB, and the like? Aside from making it easier for Xenos/Chaos to destroy the Imperium.

Pfff. No.

No. Marines are utterly useless as a practical weapon of war, but they're a priceless propaganda symbol for the Imperium.

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Marines are utterly useless as a practical weapon of war, but they're a priceless propaganda symbol for the Imperium.

Oh really? I would love to see/read about any other Imperial force able to do what the SM dose on a regular basis, and no. The Imperial Guard is not a good answer to this answer, nor the SoB to be evn more spesfic.

OT : No, the Imperium Of Man needs the SM for many reasons. Getting rid of them would be a bad, bad idea.

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Marines are utterly useless as a practical weapon of war, but they're a priceless propaganda symbol for the Imperium.

Except nearly all the fluff completely disagrees with you, as usual.

Also, they'll always need to stick around-even if there ever is 'peace'. They're the most powerful force the Imperium's made besides Custodes, and when you have a million plus worlds, there's always going to be a rebellion. Best used as military police forces that lord over several systems and crack down on any rebels or dissenters while also putting their minds to other uses. We know for example that Astartes make exceptional medics from Apothecaries, and that range could likely be expanded. Although their continued production would have to be questioned, considering the expense. Likely impose a slower induction rate of neophytes if the slim chance occurred that the Imperium actually 'won'. Because unless they ever do/can win- the Imperium will always need space marines in ever-greater numbers.

 Trondheim wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Marines are utterly useless as a practical weapon of war, but they're a priceless propaganda symbol for the Imperium.

Oh really? I would love to see/read about any other Imperial force able to do what the SM dose on a regular basis, and no. The Imperial Guard is not a good answer to this answer, nor the SoB to be evn more spesfic.

OT : No, the Imperium Of Man needs the SM for many reasons. Getting rid of them would be a bad, bad idea.

I imagine he's talking from a strategic sense. where the marines are basicly kinda small in numbers

BrianDavion wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Marines are utterly useless as a practical weapon of war, but they're a priceless propaganda symbol for the Imperium.

Oh really? I would love to see/read about any other Imperial force able to do what the SM dose on a regular basis, and no. The Imperial Guard is not a good answer to this answer, nor the SoB to be evn more spesfic.

OT : No, the Imperium Of Man needs the SM for many reasons. Getting rid of them would be a bad, bad idea.

I imagine he's talking from a strategic sense. where the marines are basicly kinda small in numbers

Even then they're completely critical in their small numbers. The Astartes are the force preventing the Imperium from collapsing/being consumed simultaneously by its foes and the archenemy, lest GW let us forget it.

Indeed. They might me one millionth the number of Guardsmen or something, but Marines offer the possibility for truly ludicrous force concentration, along with speed and psychological advantage and so on and so forth... They are very useful indeed.

Space Marines are incredibly useful as both a means of Imperial propaganda (they are 'sons', well 'grandsons' I suppose, of the Emperor) and as a razor sharp scalpel on the surgery table of warfare. They work best when working alongside the Guard, when they can strike into enemy territory, take and hold crucial locations and wait until the Guard come to relieve them or complete their objectives and withdraw.

Space Marines should rarely, if ever, be employed in the front line unless there is no other choice. One reason is that a single Marine takes an incredibly long time to create - a process which can kill the aspiring Astartes if their body refuses to accept any or the implants during the years of conditioning and biological changes to their body. Another reason is that they're very expensive in terms of resources for both their armour (and it's subsystems) and their weaponry.

If one of these Marines, in his expensive armour & wielding his expensive boltgun, is on the front line of the battlefield and gets hit by a shell that was stamped out with others in their tens of thousands within some manufactorum - what a waste of years of biological changes, conditioning & training, not to mention all of those resources used to create, arm & equip that Astartes.

Astartes are excellent force multiplyers - a single Astartes in the right place can make a massive difference to any given situation thanks to their capabilites & the fame they have.

There are things I really do not like about the Astartes, and frankly I find them dull as hell, but they've a place in the Imperium and are a useful tool, but that's all they are, a tool.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Even then they're completely critical in their small numbers. The Astartes are the force preventing the Imperium from collapsing/being consumed simultaneously by its foes and the archenemy, lest GW let us forget it.

At a ratio of 1 Astartes : 1 Planet in the Imperium, I repudiate any such notion that the Astartes, in their tiny numbers, are preventing the Imperium from collapsing. The huge masses of the Imperial Guard and colossal forces of the Imperial Navy do that. The Imperium could potentially survive without the Astartes, but it could not survive in any way shape or form without the Imperial Guard/Navy. Give the regular humans a break - the Astartes are not the be-all, end-all. The bravery of the Guardsmen facing up to threats & forces that consist of their worst nightmares, are individually more powerful, or have an advantage of technology, should be celebrated, not all of the glory given to the Astartes.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Space Marines are incredibly useful as both a means of Imperial propaganda (they are 'sons', well 'grandsons' I suppose, of the Emperor) and as a razor sharp scalpel on the surgery table of warfare. They work best when working alongside the Guard, when they can strike into enemy territory, take and hold crucial locations and wait until the Guard come to relieve them or complete their objectives and withdraw.

Space Marines should rarely, if ever, be employed in the front line unless there is no other choice. One reason is that a single Marine takes an incredibly long time to create - a process which can kill the aspiring Astartes if their body refuses to accept any or the implants during the years of conditioning and biological changes to their body. Another reason is that they're very expensive in terms of resources for both their armour (and it's subsystems) and their weaponry.

If one of these Marines, in his expensive armour & wielding his expensive boltgun, is on the front line of the battlefield and gets hit by a shell that was stamped out with others in their tens of thousands within some manufactorum - what a waste of years of biological changes, conditioning & training, not to mention all of those resources used to create, arm & equip that Astartes.

Astartes are excellent force multiplyers - a single Astartes in the right place can make a massive difference to any given situation thanks to their capabilites & the fame they have.

There are things I really do not like about the Astartes, and frankly I find them dull as hell, but they've a place in the Imperium and are a useful tool, but that's all they are, a tool.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Even then they're completely critical in their small numbers. The Astartes are the force preventing the Imperium from collapsing/being consumed simultaneously by its foes and the archenemy, lest GW let us forget it.

At a ratio of 1 Astartes : 1 Planet in the Imperium, I repudiate any such notion that the Astartes, in their tiny numbers, are preventing the Imperium from collapsing. The huge masses of the Imperial Guard and colossal forces of the Imperial Navy do that. The Imperium could potentially survive without the Astartes, but it could not survive in any way shape or form without the Imperial Guard/Navy. Give the regular humans a break - the Astartes are not the be-all, end-all. The bravery of the Guardsmen facing up to threats & forces that consist of their worst nightmares, are individually more powerful, or have an advantage of technology, should be celebrated, not all of the glory given to the Astartes.

Both are tools. The IG is the Emperor's sledgehammer, the SM are the Emperor's scalpel. You need both in order to wage war succesfuly. The IoM could not survive without either one.
Also, the Astartes make and look after their own armour and other equipment. They do not cost the Imperium anything at all, apart from the resources of the Astartes' planets that go to the chapter instead of to the Administratum. But the Imperium is so huge, it can miss those few resources.
Frankly, I do not think that cost is an issue at all when you are dealing with something that has the resources of the Imperium.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

There are things I really do not like about the Astartes, and frankly I find them dull as hell, but they've a place in the Imperium and are a useful tool, but that's all they are, a tool.

Certainly when I think of a Space Marine, I think of a 'tool' too. Useless in a general sense, but thinking themselves very important.

They make a lot of sense in the traditional meaning of the world MARINE too-- As shipboard troops.

The advantage a Space Marine has over a guardsmen on the ground is very significant.

Inside the hulls of a space hulk or in a ship boarding action, it's absolutely insurmountable.

Concentration of force wins battles and in a ship it is very difficult to concentrate force due to the limited area. 3 marines can bring as much fighting power to bear as an entire platoon of guardsmen and can do it in a very small footprint, allowing them to mass combat power in a way guardsmen can't match in void combat.

Think about armsmen or guardsmen trying to clear out a space hulk. Messy.

 Silverthorne wrote:
They make a lot of sense in the traditional meaning of the world MARINE too-- As shipboard troops.

The advantage a Space Marine has over a guardsmen on the ground is very significant.

Inside the hulls of a space hulk or in a ship boarding action, it's absolutely insurmountable.

Concentration of force wins battles and in a ship it is very difficult to concentrate force due to the limited area. 3 marines can bring as much fighting power to bear as an entire platoon of guardsmen and can do it in a very small footprint, allowing them to mass combat power in a way guardsmen can't match in void combat.

Think about armsmen or guardsmen trying to clear out a space hulk. Messy.

Indeed. You could just send regiment after regiment into the Sin of Damnation and not finish the Genestealers until the hulk is clogged with corpses. Guardsmen take their strength from massive numbers and heavy support. They have neither in claustrophobic spaceship corridors, and they can be isolated, trapped, and eliminated one squad at a time.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:


There are things I really do not like about the Astartes, and frankly I find them dull as hell, but they've a place in the Imperium and are a useful tool, but that's all they are, a tool.

I find a lot of unintentional irony in this post seeing as you are a DKoK player, but whatever floats your boat.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Both are tools. The IG is the Emperor's sledgehammer, the SM are the Emperor's scalpel. You need both in order to wage war succesfuly. The IoM could not survive without either one.
Also, the Astartes make and look after their own armour and other equipment. They do not cost the Imperium anything at all, apart from the resources of the Astartes' planets that go to the chapter instead of to the Administratum. But the Imperium is so huge, it can miss those few resources.
Frankly, I do not think that cost is an issue at all when you are dealing with something that has the resources of the Imperium.

There are probably thousands of battles, hundreds of campaigns fought & won solely by the Imperial Guard & planetary PDF where no Marines are involved at all - as you said the Imperium is 'so huge', which makes it rather difficult for 1,000 Chapters to attend to every war & conflict the Imperium faces when multiple Chapters are often engaged in the same war (the Wars for Armageddon, for example). The Imperial Guard & Imperial Navy have the numbers & means to defend the Imperium, the Astartes are of great assistance in wars where they actually appear. Whilst the Imperial Guard/Navy (and other military institutions such as SoB) -could- protect the Imperium on their own, and succeed, the Astartes couldn't do it on their own. Battles aside, the Astartes greater mobility is their main 'selling point', if you will, which can greatly help to give the Guard a more advantageous position when they arrive via the Imperial Navy.

My point was more about the time it takes to create each individual Marine (plus how easily he can be destroyed by something far cheaper, cruder and in great supply like a shell for an artillery gun) and the use of that highly trained, biologically engineered super-soldier. Astartes can not win wars alone (I refuse to accept that individual Astartes can kill off hundreds of opponents single-handed)* - if a Chapter takes heavy casualties then it will be out of action for decades whilst it tries to recover. Which is why it is as insurgent fighters that the Astartes excel and are indeed unparalleled in the role within the Imperium. They strike quickly and with great & sudden violence that takes their targets (often) by surprise. They can get in, achieve their objective & either get out or hold their position if the Imperial Guard is advancing to relieve them. They can't do pitched battles because they'll just get overrun - they cover too small a frontage and could be surrounded through the enemies sheer weight of numbers - mobility is all well and good but what happens when you need to stand your ground? Think about them standing up to a Tyranid horde - this is what I get in my mind;




They're too valuable to sacrifice when the massed numbers of the Guard are more suited to the battlefields of 40k;


Astartes are great when they employ themselves correctly and work with Imperial forces (if their arrogance will let them).

*Before anyone bursts into viriolic outrage at this, bear in mind that the 'sources' we have are not 100% 'factual' - they're formed of legends, myths, half-truths, propaganda, stories repeated so often that they've grown and become bloated with each further telling.

 Silverthorne wrote:
They make a lot of sense in the traditional meaning of the world MARINE too-- As shipboard troops.

The advantage a Space Marine has over a guardsmen on the ground is very significant.

Inside the hulls of a space hulk or in a ship boarding action, it's absolutely insurmountable.

Concentration of force wins battles and in a ship it is very difficult to concentrate force due to the limited area. 3 marines can bring as much fighting power to bear as an entire platoon of guardsmen and can do it in a very small footprint, allowing them to mass combat power in a way guardsmen can't match in void combat.

Think about armsmen or guardsmen trying to clear out a space hulk. Messy.

In that sort of context the Astartes are indeed well-suited to the job at hand, more so than the Imperial Navy, although with the amount of Armsmen aboard an Imperial Navy battleship they'd still have sufficient bodies to throw aboard enemy ships (with the firepower of Imperial Navy vessels, why would they want to take another vessel through a boarding action? There would be some reasons but if it's to take out an opposing vessel then their armament will do the job much more efficiently). As for space hulks - I didn't think Astartes ever actually 'cleared' them - I thought they just leapt aboard for whatever objective they have and then get out again.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I find a lot of unintentional irony in this post seeing as you are a DKoK player, but whatever floats your boat.

The reason why I said that the Astartes are tools of war is that people often make out that they're more than that. The Guard is a tool of war, the Imperial Navy a tool of war, the Sisters of Battle tools of war. They're all there to defend the Imperium.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
The reason why I said that the Astartes are tools of war is that people often make out that they're more than that. The Guard is a tool of war, the Imperial Navy a tool of war, the Sisters of Battle tools of war. They're all there to defend the Imperium.

I was more referring to the 'dull' part. Now, it is down to personal taste of course, but I cannot personally see how anyone could find anything more dull than the DKoK. :S


And The Last Light is just epic.

@ Sparks Havelock--

Some Astartes chapters are mentioned as having former space-hulks as fortress monasteries or chapter assets, so I think that a total clearing of a hulk does occasionally occur, although as you say, usually their incursions are more limited. Also I have read several places about very powerful Imperial Navy ships that were formerly a part of a space hulk. I suppose it's possible the Space Marines salvaged it and removed it before the hulk was secure, but it seems more likely they made a big (entire chapter, probably) effort to cleanse the hulk, then parted it out.

I wonder how that works--legally, in the Imperium. Say my Mentor Legion clear a space hulk that includes 3-4 BB class warships? Do I have to turn them over to the Navy / Mechanicus? Or do they become part of my chapter fleet, even though they are clearly Navy-style, not Astartes style ships?

I assume they turn them over, but there is some sort of exchange, either for restricted STCs (like the Fire Eagle) if it's going to the Mechanicus or some pledge of future support (from a Segmentus Fleet).