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 CaptainJay wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Has to be str 8 as herald is t4. Any wise player will protect against barrage with placement.

Tzeentch Heralds are T3, so Str6 barrage is fine to ID them.

Then they wont be in a screamer star, or it will be a slow one at that.

Disc counts as jetbike so they get the armoured steed rule which guess what, increases their T by one .

Ack, you're right. They made the toughness increase implicit in the jetbike rules for this edition. Normally they denote the toughness increase explicitly, and since in this case they hadn't...

...good catch. Thanks.

MarkyMark wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Has to be str 8 as herald is t4. Any wise player will protect against barrage with placement.

Tzeentch Heralds are T3, so Str6 barrage is fine to ID them.

Then they wont be in a screamer star, or it will be a slow one at that.

Disc counts as jetbike so they get the armoured steed rule which guess what, increases their T by one .

Sounds like you're getting confused with WFB. However I would be happy if you can prove me wrong (makes screamer star even nastier), where is this 'armoured steed' rule? Going by the 'steeds' in the CD codex it lists the effect of the steeds on the model purchasing them, (for example a juggernaut of khorne gives +1T, +1A and changes the model's type to calvary). Disc of Tzeentch on the other hand simply changes the model's type to jetbike, no mention of increased toughness.

It makes a note with the old brackets like Eldar T4 (3) to count the T4 but I don't think the BRB says anything about auto increasing T, if it does please note the page on here I would be curious to see it.

Though this does not make killing them any easier...

Check unit types in the brb under bikes, dont have book to hand to tell you the exact page.

Page 45 (Bikes & Jetbikes). First Heading (Armoured Steed).

I missed it , too. Thanks for correcting me.

Then I've been playing my Tzeentch Heralds wrong as well. While I don't run a full-blown screamer-star, I have been playing my heralds as T3.


BTW, MarkyMark's advice is spot-on.

 CaptainJay wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Has to be str 8 as herald is t4. Any wise player will protect against barrage with placement.

Tzeentch Heralds are T3, so Str6 barrage is fine to ID them.

Tze Heralds on Disks are T4, so no S6 is not enough and you;ll need S8

It is far from unbeatable, having played with it and against it, here are some tips.

1) if you have a fearless unit that can take a lot of punishment force it down his throat. (scarabs, nurgle spawn, anything with a high t value and a lot of wounds). They do not have hit and run. Tie them up for a few key turns and the game can be yours.

2) if they get the 2++ off just play around them. Assuming everything goes their way they will have 4 flicker fires that are reroll to hit, ignore cover, and have a good shot at holding their reserves off the board with scriers gaze. spread out, if your army is weak to assault don't allow your opponent to multi charge. He can still only shoot one unit a turn and its not a guarantee he kills it, use that to your advantage.

3) go out of your way to kill fateweaver, force the player to make a choice in who he wants to grim. If you can down fateweaver, you take away his warpstorm reroll and his reroll which is huge. It will really force the player to consider what happens if he fails hos grim.

4) besides the portal the screamerstar player will average about 2-3 scoring units. Make a push for them, and clear them off the table as soon as he arrives. Force him to table you for the win. (not an easy thing for the star to do).

The key to this match up is forcing your opponent into choices he doesn't want to make. This is a very winnable match up. Play the mission and you will have a good shot at winning.

Those are interesting strategies... I suppose with Tau you could sacrifice a Riptide to try to keep them busy for a turn or 2

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Those are interesting strategies... I suppose with Tau you could sacrifice a Riptide to try to keep them busy for a turn or 2

I would, especially turn 4 or 5 when its time to set up the end game, by that time you won't really need your riptide. make sure you charge it solo though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and unless you have enough fire power to put a serious hurting on the star, you want to go 2nd.

Finally got the blog post up, here

http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-irrational-fear-of-screamers.html?showComment=1388839686782#c1274687684911878101

Thanks man I really like your analogy and positive criticism of the list and how to beat it

Thanks Eiluj, I dont think Screamers are the worse list out there to beat as per my views on the blog, I do think seer council could be a lot worse but have more limited experince with them (for a start from a pure points prespective seer is a lot cheaper meaning you can have more support in there and frankly jetbikes are one of the best troops in the game).

MarkyMark wrote:
Finally got the blog post up, here

http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-irrational-fear-of-screamers.html?showComment=1388839686782#c1274687684911878101

That's a really good read, one of the best articles I have read on the subject

One of the best answers which has not been said yet is Space Wolves allies.

SW rune priests are a great counter, and the fact you can get 2 for your 1 ally HQ slot is fantastic.

2 rune priests in terminator armour, backed up by 2 squads of 10 greyhunters with 2 plasmaguns costs 560-600 points depending on if you give the priests lvl 2 or not.

This sounds a lot, but against this line up it's an absolute steal.

You can cover most of the board in a 50% psychic fail zone, and have 2 of perhaps the best troop choice in the game at countering daemons.

Great article, Mark.

 jy2 wrote:
Great article, Mark.

 krootman. wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Finally got the blog post up, here

http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-irrational-fear-of-screamers.html?showComment=1388839686782#c1274687684911878101

That's a really good read, one of the best articles I have read on the subject

Thanks guys, good to know I make sense sometimes!.

As for the Seer Council, that is one that I have A LOT of experience with. If you want to make it good you need the Barron in there with his 2up invuln., now he is only Jump pack so this slows their movement, esp. if you want to keep him in front. With two Farseers you have a good chance at getting fortune but still not a guarantee, I had two games in a tournament, where neither got it then the next game they both did! The Warlocks can give you the 1+ to the armour save, but this is not an invuln save. Horrify is good, esp against daemons, making it harder for their psychics to go off, but against tzeentch does not help as much. You can give one the Shard of Anarus to make them fearless and with the Barron they get hit and run and stealth which combined with 5up jink and shrouded from conceal gives them a 2up cover save which is nice.

I think both have their pros and cons, however I think the Eldar seer council is more of a glass hammer, the grimore can not be negated away and they screamer star has a bit more bite if you give the heralds ether blades and all the screamers can use lampreys bite.. I have run both seers and screamers, I agree that getting rid of troops and fateweaver is a good way to play, without fateweaver's reroll I seem to fail my grimoire more than pass. I think that palguebearers though slow and with portaglyph a daemonette squad is pretty fast, I think they may hold up longer. Now I agree jetbikes are wicked fast, but usually are running squads of three, put enough dakka into that and they will miss their 3up save or 5up jink. Just my opinion, but since MarkyMark did such a good job with the screamers, thought I would throw my 2 cents in on the seer council.

I think the best thing to do with the seer council is try to get them to fail their psychics, via shadow of the warp, rune priests (enjoy this while it lasts - you know this is going away), or with inquisitor or grey knight wargear or special gear.